cannakis
Well-Known Member
haha yeah thats what you would think, but the last batch the one that turned out the worst and stinkiest ha isnt even Hot at all, let alone steamy.! haha really weird.
Interesting find for insect frass users
- Thread starter greasemonkeymann
- Start date
cannakis
Well-Known Member
hahaha yeah i know! haha yeah i do like playing in the dirt.!
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
go get some green compost, and make a pallet sized flat bed of greens, then layer your soil on it, and then another layer of greens ,repeat, do that a couple times, and cover it, and I promise it'll steam.
cannakis
Well-Known Member
Greens or browns? wouldnt i need more carbon...? like should i mixthis hay grass in my yard with it greens, or what kind?
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
carbon composts don't give you much heat, you want a green base to cook the soil, the soil takes the roll of the carbon, so to speak.
Any greens should be good, the finer the mulch the better, what I do is I have an electric blower that doubles as a leaf mulcher, and it chews up the leaves pretty good. Course finding green leaves is pretty hard this time of year, you may have better luck with lawn clippings or something of that like
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
another thing you could do is plant some soil-starting legumes, and maybe some ground cover, you can probably find the seeds online somewhere. Not sure if your soil is too hot for those though.
the other thing is, when I say "hot" i'm talking of two different things, #1 being your soil is too "hot" meaning too much nutrients (some use the term "hot" referring to nitrogen content)
#2 when I say "hot" in regards to composting, i'm indeed talking about actual temperature.
I know it's a lil confusing, but your "hot" soil needs to compost to get "hot" enough to break down the nutrients.
another nerdier way to say it would be this, your organic soil is too amended and too rich of nutrients, therefore it needs a good thermal composting to break it down
Make sense?
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
I stumbled upon this, looking for info on some bugs.
interesting to see the phosphorus and calcium content on these... Higher than most manures..
http://www.moonvalleyreptiles.com/crested-geckos/diet-nutrition/feeder-insects
anybody that wants to utilize chitin, could benefit from the the information there
also clearly gives much more information on chitin contents as well, the chart provided is some good shit.
interesting to see the phosphorus and calcium content on these... Higher than most manures..
http://www.moonvalleyreptiles.com/crested-geckos/diet-nutrition/feeder-insects
anybody that wants to utilize chitin, could benefit from the the information there
also clearly gives much more information on chitin contents as well, the chart provided is some good shit.
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
another interesting tidbit. Regarding chitin. looks like bugs are loaded with more chitin than crustaceans
holy shit its slow at my shop... spent much more time looking at that insect chart than fixin cars today...shit if you look at the organic section like 75% of the damn posts I've added my own shit to.
anyways.. it IS good info.
Much of an invertebrate’s fiber content comes from chitin as well as cross-linked protein chains from the sclerotization process of the exocuticle. Chitin is a modified composite carbohydrate; most insects don’t incorporate minerals into their chitin matrix, unlike shellfish and other crustaceans. The larvae of soldier flies (Hermetia illucens) does contain significant amounts of calcium in its exoskeleton. Chitin does contain nitrogen which is theorized to artificially inflate protein levels. Regardless, insects are very high in protein when compared to other natural sources. Some insectivores produce chitinase, an enzyme to break down the chitin, but within mammals digestibility ranges from 2-20%, with no data available for insectivorous reptiles, nor is there direct evidence that this digestibility translates into usable protein (nitrogen) from vs carbohydrates.
In terms of dietary ‘‘fiber’’ content, both neutral detergent fiber (NDF) and acid detergent fiber (ADF) content were similar for B. lateralis, averaging about 12% of DM. Approximately 60–90% of ADF in insects is chitin provided by the exoskeleton [Barker et al., 1998; Finke, 2007; Oyarzun et al., 1996]. The ADF content of G. portentosa was 10–13% of DM. However, NDF in this species was considerably higher (36% of DM) and may represent true dietary fiber from vegetables in the digestive tract. Both body and gut content, especially in species with a relatively large gut or consuming high fiber diets, contribute to the nutrient content of feeder prey species. Thus, diet may provide essential nutrients otherwise unavailable from the insect with an empty gut [Finke, 2003; Klasing et al., 2000].
holy shit its slow at my shop... spent much more time looking at that insect chart than fixin cars today...shit if you look at the organic section like 75% of the damn posts I've added my own shit to.
anyways.. it IS good info.
Much of an invertebrate’s fiber content comes from chitin as well as cross-linked protein chains from the sclerotization process of the exocuticle. Chitin is a modified composite carbohydrate; most insects don’t incorporate minerals into their chitin matrix, unlike shellfish and other crustaceans. The larvae of soldier flies (Hermetia illucens) does contain significant amounts of calcium in its exoskeleton. Chitin does contain nitrogen which is theorized to artificially inflate protein levels. Regardless, insects are very high in protein when compared to other natural sources. Some insectivores produce chitinase, an enzyme to break down the chitin, but within mammals digestibility ranges from 2-20%, with no data available for insectivorous reptiles, nor is there direct evidence that this digestibility translates into usable protein (nitrogen) from vs carbohydrates.
In terms of dietary ‘‘fiber’’ content, both neutral detergent fiber (NDF) and acid detergent fiber (ADF) content were similar for B. lateralis, averaging about 12% of DM. Approximately 60–90% of ADF in insects is chitin provided by the exoskeleton [Barker et al., 1998; Finke, 2007; Oyarzun et al., 1996]. The ADF content of G. portentosa was 10–13% of DM. However, NDF in this species was considerably higher (36% of DM) and may represent true dietary fiber from vegetables in the digestive tract. Both body and gut content, especially in species with a relatively large gut or consuming high fiber diets, contribute to the nutrient content of feeder prey species. Thus, diet may provide essential nutrients otherwise unavailable from the insect with an empty gut [Finke, 2003; Klasing et al., 2000].
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Southerner
Well-Known Member
On insect frass, is there only one source for this stuff? I've used the kind in the brown bag but found it a bit expensive. Seems like something I want in my soil, though.
DonTesla
Well-Known Member
Hi Southerner,
You must persevere..
There is more than one source for sure. We get ours from somewhere in Canada at the moment. They rock a clear plastic with flowery label.
Is a bit pricey imo too, but really potent, and multi purpose .. I wonder how long it lasts cause bulk would be the way to go.
Let us remember..
insect frass has 100 Billion fungi spores per gram
& 6 trillion cfu/gm of microorganisms
(That's billion with a B and trillion with a T, and includes bacteria, protozoa and nematodes)
How does crab shell meal compare @Pattahabi or what do you prefer for your chitin/ase source..
A note on chitin:
it stimulates the plants auto-immune system so it produces more:
terpenes, flavinoids, alkaloids, amino acids, and chitinase enzyme, not to mention root rot, mildew and nematode defence
That essentially means medicine will be MORE medicinal, flavourful, and disease-free (healthy)
Let us know your progress and results,
Down by the river where our thread wicks,
Tes
Pattahabi
Well-Known Member
I don't use insect frass. While I think it could be beneficial to have some dead bugs in your soil, I'm not about to pay big bucks for it. Way too much marketing for my taste. For people interested in Chitin/chitinase/chitosan maybe read the following:
A Copy/paste from http://idigmygarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51481
To most effectively use chitin you need to understand the three related compounds – Chitin, Chitosan, Chitinase
Chitin is a compound that makes up the shells of crustaceans/arthropods. Not only that, but chitin helps form the cell walls of fungi (I will share the importance of this later). And even more good news, it is a main component of the exoskeleton of insects. One thing you also need to be aware of is that it is found in the “skin” of worms.
Chitosan is a compound that is created from the breakdown of chitin. Chitosan is the product that you may find most commercially available as both a plant growth regulator and a “no risk” systematic pesticide. Note: per my current understanding most chitosan is produced using a synthetic process on an organic product, thus is not truly organic. Not only that, but if you are using it to reverse an outbreak, it may not be the best option. I will share a better option in a minute.
Chitinase is the naturally occurring enzyme that breaks chitin down into chitosan. I will repeat that point, it is the central point you need to know in order to organically reverse a disease (and possibly even insect) outbreak using chitin! Chitinase is the enzyme that breaks chitin down into chitosan. Some living organisms produce this chitinase enzyme. Most of these organisms are bacteria (and some fungi). Some plants even produce this enzyme in order to fight off disease (this is the “system” that we will use to model our pest control treatment). Anyways, many of the chitinase producing microorganisms are known crustacean pathogens. These organisms produce this enzyme so they can break down crustacean shells (in order to eat it, or get through it to invade the shellfish itself). While this may seem bad, it can be used to our organic advantage.
More info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitosan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitinase
Ok, now that you are a little familiar with each of these substances let’s start talking pest control. There are really two stages of pest control: preventative and reactive.
PREVENTATIVE PEST CONTROL using chitin and chitosan
Like I mentioned, chitin is found on the outer parts of fungi and bugs. Some plants use this to their advantage. They have receptors that sense chitin. When the plant detects chitin (especially in high concentrations) it assumes that it is being attacked by either an insect or a fungal disease. The plant will ramp up its defenses. It will thicken and strengthen its cell walls. If it can, it will start making chitinase.
Why would a plant make chitinase if it thinks it is being attacked? Well as you know, chitinase breaks chitin down. Hence, when the fungi or insect comes in contact with the plant, the plant will excrete these enzymes. When the enzyme touches the chitin on the pest, it will break it down. As the chitin breaks down the pest either becomes vulnerable and weak or even flat out die. In this way some plants produce their own ‘insecticide’ and ‘fungicide’, albeit in very limited quantities.
So why apply chitosan?
Well, plants can react to chitosan in the same way as chitin. When they detect it they will beef up their defenses. Hence companies sell chitosan as a systematic pesticide. Could the same effect be achieved by using chitin itself? Yes. I understand it though that most companies sell chitosan because it is more soluble and can be better mixed and sprayed as a solution.
I also understand that as the plant works to strengthen its cell walls etc, it must create new growth. Hence chitin and chitosan are used as plant growth regulators that increase plant growth. When you apply the product the plant will put energy into growth as it tries to defend itself against the apparent attack.
In summary, when you apply chitin or even chitosan you will stimulate the plant to beef up its defenses. In this way your plant will be less susceptible to diseases and insects. This is most effective before the pant is being attacked. If an outbreak is already in progress, there is a better option.
Now that we know how to use chitin products to help prevent outbreaks, how do we use them to correct outbreaks that are in progress?
REACTIVE PEST CONTROL using chitin, chitosan, AND chitinase.
Suppose that your plant (be it tomato, squash, etc. or even a fruit tree) is already being attacked by a pest. What can you do? Applying chitin or chitosan can’t hurt, but my experience suggests that there is a more effective alternative.
Plants can kill fungi/bugs using the chitinase enzyme, so why can’t you? The idea is to use the plants natural model to provide your own pest control. You simply need to make a concentrated amount of chitinase and apply it. You will effectively be applying a concentrated dose of a natural pesticide!
So how do you make chitinase? You let bacteria do it for you! It’s pretty simple really. Get your hands on some chitin and ferment it. As it ferments, chitinase will be the main compound helping the bacteria eat it. If you apply the mixture AS it is fermenting you will be applying a large dose of the chitinase enzyme, and as such, will be able to help the plant kill off the disease/insect outbreak.
HOW TO PRODUCE CHITINASE using fermentation
Remember, chitin is the main component of crustacean shells. Save the shells when you eat crabs, shrimp etc. and dry them out. If you live near the coast you are in luck. Many people/companies see these shells as waste. If you can find someone who is getting rid of some, tell them you will gladly take them off their hands. If not, buy a crustacean shell fertilizer; something like “crab shell fertilizer”.
Now that you have your shells you need to turn them into powder in order to maximize surface area and increase break down. Simply put them in a blender and puree until powder. smile.gif
Ok, now that you have your powder chitin you need to let the bacteria do their thing. This is best achieved if you inoculate it with chitin eating bacteria. The simplest way to do this is to find a company that sells non-sterilized chitosan that was produced by using fermentation. The chitosan will have the appropriate bacteria. If you can’t get some non-sterilized naturally produced chitosan that is ok, you will just have to wait for nature to blow in some of the desired bacteria on its own (leave open outside for best natural inoculation).
Once you have your ingredients take a bucket full of of non-chlorinated water and add your chitin. Next add your inoculant and wait until fermentation begins.
To speed up the process, it is beneficial to aerate the bucket of water with a fish-tank air pump (as if you were making actively aerated compost tea). Also, warming the water can promote bacteria production. The temperature depends on which type of bacteria you want to encourage. Usually you want it over 80 degree F and below 135 degrees F.
Just like with other organic pest control practices timing is important! You want to spray the solution while there is the maximum concentration of chitinase. This is done while fermentation is happening rapidly. The easiest way to tell is to smell the product. Once the smell changes it is ready. The longer you wait, the less chitin there will be, and hence less chitinase. So smell often and spray quickly.
Spray the substance on your plant. Over and under leaves, on the bark, and even on the soil around the root zone. That’s it, your home produced natural and organic pesticide!
Note: think ahead for the next outbreak. Leave a quart or so of the solution in the bucket and let ferment for a few more days (until fermenting is over). Place in an airtight jar and save. You will use this to inoculate your next batch.
Warning about concentrated doses of chitinase
I have a friend who grows worms. She threw some extra chitin “brew” in one of her worm piles to feed them. The thing she didn’t think about was that worms also have chitin in their skin. The brew killed the entire worm population just like it can kill fungi and bugs.
In other words, be careful and only use active chitin brews during an outbreak. It is likely that using chitinase brews can kill beneficial organisms as well as pests. To correct this, once the brew has had time to do its thing and break down (a few days to a week) it is best to re-introduce beneficial organisms to the plant and soil. Spray your plant and soil with a compost/manure tea or simply sprinkle some compost over the dirt and water those good guys into the soil.
Note two: The above process can also be used to produce chitosan on your own so you do not have to purchase it for your preventative applications. Simply let fermentation finish before applying.
P-
A Copy/paste from http://idigmygarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51481
To most effectively use chitin you need to understand the three related compounds – Chitin, Chitosan, Chitinase
Chitin is a compound that makes up the shells of crustaceans/arthropods. Not only that, but chitin helps form the cell walls of fungi (I will share the importance of this later). And even more good news, it is a main component of the exoskeleton of insects. One thing you also need to be aware of is that it is found in the “skin” of worms.
Chitosan is a compound that is created from the breakdown of chitin. Chitosan is the product that you may find most commercially available as both a plant growth regulator and a “no risk” systematic pesticide. Note: per my current understanding most chitosan is produced using a synthetic process on an organic product, thus is not truly organic. Not only that, but if you are using it to reverse an outbreak, it may not be the best option. I will share a better option in a minute.
Chitinase is the naturally occurring enzyme that breaks chitin down into chitosan. I will repeat that point, it is the central point you need to know in order to organically reverse a disease (and possibly even insect) outbreak using chitin! Chitinase is the enzyme that breaks chitin down into chitosan. Some living organisms produce this chitinase enzyme. Most of these organisms are bacteria (and some fungi). Some plants even produce this enzyme in order to fight off disease (this is the “system” that we will use to model our pest control treatment). Anyways, many of the chitinase producing microorganisms are known crustacean pathogens. These organisms produce this enzyme so they can break down crustacean shells (in order to eat it, or get through it to invade the shellfish itself). While this may seem bad, it can be used to our organic advantage.
More info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitosan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitinase
Ok, now that you are a little familiar with each of these substances let’s start talking pest control. There are really two stages of pest control: preventative and reactive.
PREVENTATIVE PEST CONTROL using chitin and chitosan
Like I mentioned, chitin is found on the outer parts of fungi and bugs. Some plants use this to their advantage. They have receptors that sense chitin. When the plant detects chitin (especially in high concentrations) it assumes that it is being attacked by either an insect or a fungal disease. The plant will ramp up its defenses. It will thicken and strengthen its cell walls. If it can, it will start making chitinase.
Why would a plant make chitinase if it thinks it is being attacked? Well as you know, chitinase breaks chitin down. Hence, when the fungi or insect comes in contact with the plant, the plant will excrete these enzymes. When the enzyme touches the chitin on the pest, it will break it down. As the chitin breaks down the pest either becomes vulnerable and weak or even flat out die. In this way some plants produce their own ‘insecticide’ and ‘fungicide’, albeit in very limited quantities.
So why apply chitosan?
Well, plants can react to chitosan in the same way as chitin. When they detect it they will beef up their defenses. Hence companies sell chitosan as a systematic pesticide. Could the same effect be achieved by using chitin itself? Yes. I understand it though that most companies sell chitosan because it is more soluble and can be better mixed and sprayed as a solution.
I also understand that as the plant works to strengthen its cell walls etc, it must create new growth. Hence chitin and chitosan are used as plant growth regulators that increase plant growth. When you apply the product the plant will put energy into growth as it tries to defend itself against the apparent attack.
In summary, when you apply chitin or even chitosan you will stimulate the plant to beef up its defenses. In this way your plant will be less susceptible to diseases and insects. This is most effective before the pant is being attacked. If an outbreak is already in progress, there is a better option.
Now that we know how to use chitin products to help prevent outbreaks, how do we use them to correct outbreaks that are in progress?
REACTIVE PEST CONTROL using chitin, chitosan, AND chitinase.
Suppose that your plant (be it tomato, squash, etc. or even a fruit tree) is already being attacked by a pest. What can you do? Applying chitin or chitosan can’t hurt, but my experience suggests that there is a more effective alternative.
Plants can kill fungi/bugs using the chitinase enzyme, so why can’t you? The idea is to use the plants natural model to provide your own pest control. You simply need to make a concentrated amount of chitinase and apply it. You will effectively be applying a concentrated dose of a natural pesticide!
So how do you make chitinase? You let bacteria do it for you! It’s pretty simple really. Get your hands on some chitin and ferment it. As it ferments, chitinase will be the main compound helping the bacteria eat it. If you apply the mixture AS it is fermenting you will be applying a large dose of the chitinase enzyme, and as such, will be able to help the plant kill off the disease/insect outbreak.
HOW TO PRODUCE CHITINASE using fermentation
Remember, chitin is the main component of crustacean shells. Save the shells when you eat crabs, shrimp etc. and dry them out. If you live near the coast you are in luck. Many people/companies see these shells as waste. If you can find someone who is getting rid of some, tell them you will gladly take them off their hands. If not, buy a crustacean shell fertilizer; something like “crab shell fertilizer”.
Now that you have your shells you need to turn them into powder in order to maximize surface area and increase break down. Simply put them in a blender and puree until powder. smile.gif
Ok, now that you have your powder chitin you need to let the bacteria do their thing. This is best achieved if you inoculate it with chitin eating bacteria. The simplest way to do this is to find a company that sells non-sterilized chitosan that was produced by using fermentation. The chitosan will have the appropriate bacteria. If you can’t get some non-sterilized naturally produced chitosan that is ok, you will just have to wait for nature to blow in some of the desired bacteria on its own (leave open outside for best natural inoculation).
Once you have your ingredients take a bucket full of of non-chlorinated water and add your chitin. Next add your inoculant and wait until fermentation begins.
To speed up the process, it is beneficial to aerate the bucket of water with a fish-tank air pump (as if you were making actively aerated compost tea). Also, warming the water can promote bacteria production. The temperature depends on which type of bacteria you want to encourage. Usually you want it over 80 degree F and below 135 degrees F.
Just like with other organic pest control practices timing is important! You want to spray the solution while there is the maximum concentration of chitinase. This is done while fermentation is happening rapidly. The easiest way to tell is to smell the product. Once the smell changes it is ready. The longer you wait, the less chitin there will be, and hence less chitinase. So smell often and spray quickly.
Spray the substance on your plant. Over and under leaves, on the bark, and even on the soil around the root zone. That’s it, your home produced natural and organic pesticide!
Note: think ahead for the next outbreak. Leave a quart or so of the solution in the bucket and let ferment for a few more days (until fermenting is over). Place in an airtight jar and save. You will use this to inoculate your next batch.
Warning about concentrated doses of chitinase
I have a friend who grows worms. She threw some extra chitin “brew” in one of her worm piles to feed them. The thing she didn’t think about was that worms also have chitin in their skin. The brew killed the entire worm population just like it can kill fungi and bugs.
In other words, be careful and only use active chitin brews during an outbreak. It is likely that using chitinase brews can kill beneficial organisms as well as pests. To correct this, once the brew has had time to do its thing and break down (a few days to a week) it is best to re-introduce beneficial organisms to the plant and soil. Spray your plant and soil with a compost/manure tea or simply sprinkle some compost over the dirt and water those good guys into the soil.
Note two: The above process can also be used to produce chitosan on your own so you do not have to purchase it for your preventative applications. Simply let fermentation finish before applying.
P-
Pattahabi
Well-Known Member
Crab meal is full of chitin. Without a lab report showing us chitin amounts I could not say how they compare. The way I see it, IF my soil needed a microbe boost, vermicompost does the job. If I need Chitin, crab meal is in my soil adding calcium carbonate, chitin, etc. I use seed sprout teas which contain chitinase. All at a fraction of the price of frass. I don't see a reason to go out of my way to put bug poop/parts in my soil. Especially not at $15 a pound. I can buy a 40# sack of crab meal for $38.50.
So again, I'm not saying it can't work for you, or help make plants more healthy. I'm just saying I see no reason to add it to my soil.
P-
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
ah you filthy double-poster you! You already posted us that info on chitin.... almost like you have memory challenges....
I'm kiddin man, yeah my whole point of this thread was to show the advantages of using bug meal in your soil. Not frass, not that I mind frass, I just don't have "room" for it in my recipe, I mean, what do I drop?
Kelp? NO
Crab meal, neem meal? NO and NO.
insect meal derived from crickets and meal worms has a good amount (relatively) of phosphorus and potassium, not to mention calcium and chitin, and a speck of magnesium. The chart doesn't mention nitrogen.
but one percent phosphorus, and one percent potassium is pretty good, considering I only added it for the chitin content.
nd it's not big bucks for the insects, in fact, I bet you could find insects for human consumption cheaper than the chicken feed.
The bucket cost me 14 bucks I think, and that was good for roughly 8 cups of mashed bugs, obviously mashing them down "reduced" them a lil.
not bad though.
I just speculate that the chitin in the insects is more "bio-available" than the chitin in crustaceans
DonTesla
Well-Known Member
Lol .. grease you funny
Hey Pat
I dont blame you..i dig the price savings, noo doubt. I see how you're thinking..
Getting frass free was one thing (loved it too, nm its crazy stats) big up DonPetro all day
Deciding on long term style, tho, a separate matter.
If frass numbers aren't smashing crab meal numbers (anyone else?) then I would say frass is over priced compared to 40 lbs crab meal for 40 bucks.. Cheap cheap.
If you don't have lab report numbers, thou, who will..
Your Pat.
At least doing all you do you know you're well equipped..but
Funny how this important stuff isn't clear already.
And there's no chitin soup? Bottled up for the sucker consumer? Wow!
Better start a company, my hydro store workers..lol
Gotta say, for the record, whoevers mashing bugs manually is a serious beast of gardener..and a friend of the Dons.
-Tes
Hey Pat
I dont blame you..i dig the price savings, noo doubt. I see how you're thinking..
Getting frass free was one thing (loved it too, nm its crazy stats) big up DonPetro all day
Deciding on long term style, tho, a separate matter.
If frass numbers aren't smashing crab meal numbers (anyone else?) then I would say frass is over priced compared to 40 lbs crab meal for 40 bucks.. Cheap cheap.
If you don't have lab report numbers, thou, who will..
Your Pat.
At least doing all you do you know you're well equipped..but
Funny how this important stuff isn't clear already.
And there's no chitin soup? Bottled up for the sucker consumer? Wow!
Better start a company, my hydro store workers..lol
Gotta say, for the record, whoevers mashing bugs manually is a serious beast of gardener..and a friend of the Dons.
-Tes
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greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
ohh man, you are onto something...
I mean if people are buying magnets to "align the fuel molecules" in their fuel lines for their cars, then shit.
we can make a "chitin soup" bottle that sucka up and sell it for 19.95!
And hell, i'll take that compliment....
ShLUbY
Well-Known Member
P, thank you my friend!
Oh man, this is what i fuckin needed to know. PM... kiss your ass goodbye. just topdressed all my non macro nutrient amended mixes with 2tbsp of crab shell and worked in into the top layer since i have it on hand and no insect meal/frass. I have already inoculated these pots with microbes and fungi, so i'm hoping the chitin is going to break down and trigger those defense systems in the plant. I may put a barley straw mulch to help keep the topsoil from drying out so fast. this should help my populations thrive in the topsoil with the crab shell!
So with my foliar bicarbonate and oil treatments combined with the effects of the chitosan, once the chitin starts being broken down, i'm hoping will kick in by week four of these girls i just put into flower and maybe, just maybe, the plant will make the chitinase enzymes... and then i won't have to foliar while the buds are growing! i've been trying to devise a foliar shield for the buds if i have to treat a few individual leaves past week 4. otherwise i'll just dampen a paper towel with the foliar mix and wipe them down by hand. W/E it takes!
thank you organic gurus.
Oh man, this is what i fuckin needed to know. PM... kiss your ass goodbye. just topdressed all my non macro nutrient amended mixes with 2tbsp of crab shell and worked in into the top layer since i have it on hand and no insect meal/frass. I have already inoculated these pots with microbes and fungi, so i'm hoping the chitin is going to break down and trigger those defense systems in the plant. I may put a barley straw mulch to help keep the topsoil from drying out so fast. this should help my populations thrive in the topsoil with the crab shell!
So with my foliar bicarbonate and oil treatments combined with the effects of the chitosan, once the chitin starts being broken down, i'm hoping will kick in by week four of these girls i just put into flower and maybe, just maybe, the plant will make the chitinase enzymes... and then i won't have to foliar while the buds are growing! i've been trying to devise a foliar shield for the buds if i have to treat a few individual leaves past week 4. otherwise i'll just dampen a paper towel with the foliar mix and wipe them down by hand. W/E it takes!
thank you organic gurus.
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
Black soldier flies have dominated my worm bin recently. I still have a healthy worm population, but I get the added insect bodies. They are kind of nasty and they will crawl out of the bin and start growing wings, but I can sweep them up and use them. It reminded me of "Silence of the Lambs" when the moths were everywhere, my room was FULL of these guys!
I really didnt know if it was worth it at first??? They really turn the compost and speed things up!
Rrog
Well-Known Member
Just found this thread. I'm using the chicken feed also. Local amendment!!
I believe earthworms are ok with the chitin eating microbes because there is an alpha and beta chitin. I'm thinking we are selecting and amplifying one (alpha?) while earthworms have the other.
Anecdotally everyone seems to find the worms thrive while the larvae die
I believe earthworms are ok with the chitin eating microbes because there is an alpha and beta chitin. I'm thinking we are selecting and amplifying one (alpha?) while earthworms have the other.
Anecdotally everyone seems to find the worms thrive while the larvae die
DonBrennon
Well-Known Member
Great thread, only just found it
I can only get expensively imported crabshell meal, so I use frass to supply my chitin. It is fairly cheap over here, but I do have to go to the hydro store to get it and I really wanna break away from them completely.
..............so, I decided to try making my own, with the benefit of having mealworms to give to my mates chickens, in return for organic chicken shit for the compost pile.
It's 'experimental!' and was fairly cheap to set up, but I think it may be a long process before I harvest any frass. I bought 5 packs of baby mealworms for £10 to get my colony started. The base material is organic porridge oats which is also their main food source. For a water source I add a variety of fruit and veg waste, but have found they prefer banana skins, carrot ends and their absolute favourite, broccoli stumps. I've also experimented with adding various soil amendments and found they will eat pretty much anything I put in there, here's a list of what I have actually witnessed them eating - volcanic rock dust, oyster shell meal, seaweed, neem, calcified seaweed, gypsum, comfrey, alfalfa and cannabis leaf. I also tried putting freeze dried coconut powder and aloe vera in. They went into an absolute frenzy over the aloe vera, and you could see them gorging on it until they couldn't move, so I decided against using it again. Something really funky happened with the coconut, the meal worms that tried eating it were instantly killed, it drew the moisture out of them and turned to a nasty mush, not good.
1 week between photo's, they must've been thirsty
Various shots of the amendments
My first few pupa and beetles, born as eggs from the first worms I bought, in fresh oatmeal hoping they start breeding soon so I can start harvesting their eggs to add to the worm/frass producing drawer
I can only get expensively imported crabshell meal, so I use frass to supply my chitin. It is fairly cheap over here, but I do have to go to the hydro store to get it and I really wanna break away from them completely.
..............so, I decided to try making my own, with the benefit of having mealworms to give to my mates chickens, in return for organic chicken shit for the compost pile.
It's 'experimental!' and was fairly cheap to set up, but I think it may be a long process before I harvest any frass. I bought 5 packs of baby mealworms for £10 to get my colony started. The base material is organic porridge oats which is also their main food source. For a water source I add a variety of fruit and veg waste, but have found they prefer banana skins, carrot ends and their absolute favourite, broccoli stumps. I've also experimented with adding various soil amendments and found they will eat pretty much anything I put in there, here's a list of what I have actually witnessed them eating - volcanic rock dust, oyster shell meal, seaweed, neem, calcified seaweed, gypsum, comfrey, alfalfa and cannabis leaf. I also tried putting freeze dried coconut powder and aloe vera in. They went into an absolute frenzy over the aloe vera, and you could see them gorging on it until they couldn't move, so I decided against using it again. Something really funky happened with the coconut, the meal worms that tried eating it were instantly killed, it drew the moisture out of them and turned to a nasty mush, not good.
1 week between photo's, they must've been thirsty
Various shots of the amendments
My first few pupa and beetles, born as eggs from the first worms I bought, in fresh oatmeal hoping they start breeding soon so I can start harvesting their eggs to add to the worm/frass producing drawer