Jacks 321 question

all coco said:

I've done some work in big commercial grow rooms and I've never seen dry salts being used they're buying 55 gallon drums of liquid nutrients never understood it or bothered to ask them

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Not all commercial facilities are so willing too throw money away.

www.hydro-gardens.com sells dry nutes by the room to commercial facilities in Colorado and they know what they're doing. They've been selling custom blended nutrient salts to commercial greenhouse growers for decades.

It's right on their main page; cannabis mix, 4-20-39. Use it with calcium nitrate and epsom salt as usual.

My Name is Mike said:

So you have silica + jacks mix in your concentrated bottle then just measure out and mix with your xx gallon feed. Do you encounter separation at all? I take it you shake it up before use.

I'm doing my first jacks grow as we speak and this would be wayyy easier.

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Silica totally jacks up your pH, I don't recommend it in hydroponic systems.

dstylzcc said:

I run the 3.6/2.4/1.2 and get around 725-775 ppm with 1 gallon of ro.

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Ok, that's EXACTLY the same ratios between nutrients as 3-2-1.

Hollatchaboy said:

Also if I'm going to dilute it down, couldn't I just weigh out less salts using the same ratio?

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Here's the deal; like it says on the bag, you do NOT want to mix the salts into solution in small amounts, because the salts naturally stratify over time. Make enough stock solution (not the same as water bottles, I'll explain later) to last a month or so. Before using the stock solution, stir it well.

Making a stock solution is deceptively simple and takes most of the math out, hence less chance for mistakes. When I was running large crops, I mixed mine at 200 grams per gallon. Then I used a half gallon scoop every time I wanted 100 grams. That's 8 cups. For 50g, I used 4 cups.

The RATIO is key; for the standard 3-2-1 ratio, I did150g of mix plus 100g of calcium nitrate (in a separate bucket!) and 50g of mag sulfate, aka epsom salt. Don't feel like you have to use those numbers, the ratio is what's important. So now you have two buckets of salts in solution; one bucket with mix and epsom salt, the other with calcium nitrate. The amount of water in the buckets doesn't matter, as long as it's more concentrated than your final target EC.

Pour the buckets of fully dissolved solution into your nutrient reservoir, and put your EC meter in it. Dilute to whatever nutrient strength you want, no math needed; just let the meter tell you. Once you've reached your target EC, then and only then do you balance your pH with your pH meter.

It's really that simple. All the extra drama of trying to hit the exact EC with just the right amount of nutrient salts is unnecessary and counterproductive. Remember, your lockout issues are likely because you're not mixing a large enough batch of stock solution. More on that; the water bottled nutes at the hydro store are much more concentrated and as such they're inherently less stable. To combat this tendency, the manufacturers add emulsifiers and preservatives, not to mention off label ingredients like PGRs (plant growth regulators), many of which are known carcinogens. The stock solution you're making is less concentrated and more importantly, you know exactly what's in it.

ttystikk said:

Silica totally jacks up your pH, I don't recommend it in hydroponic systems.

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Damn... twas looking forward to seeing what si could do. Appreciate the heads up.

I'm trying to follow your advice above. I'm only doing a small op with 2 dwc 5gals. I keep my mix in 5gal water jugs, 1 with nutes and 1 with just RO for top ups or rez changes.

I'm confused on your example of stock. I understand the ratios but how I'm reading it is you keep a stock of mix + calcium nitrate in 1 bucket and another bucket of just Epsom salts. You then add to your res until the right ec is achieved. Merh?

My Name is Mike said:

So you have silica + jacks mix in your concentrated bottle then just measure out and mix with your xx gallon feed. Do you encounter separation at all? I take it you shake it up before use.

I'm doing my first jacks grow as we speak and this would be wayyy easier.

Click to expand...

No, I keep the Si out of any concentrations. I always add Si to straight water first and try to let it sit 30 minutes or more if possible. Then add the concentrations to that 30 to 50 ppm Si water.

My Name is Mike said:

Damn... twas looking forward to seeing what si could do. Appreciate the heads up.

I'm trying to follow your advice above. I'm only doing a small op with 2 dwc 5gals. I keep my mix in 5gal water jugs, 1 with nutes and 1 with just RO for top ups or rez changes.

I'm confused on your example of stock. I understand the ratios but how I'm reading it is you keep a stock of mix + calcium nitrate in 1 bucket and another bucket of just Epsom salts. You then add to your res until the right ec is achieved. Merh?

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The stock solution is just for the mix. Because both calcium nitrate and epsom salt are each a single nutrient double salt, there's no need to make stock solutions with them.

The discussion of mixing the nutrients is to highlight the necessity of mixing calcium nitrate into solution separately from the rest. This minimises the risk of "flocculation", a chemistry term for what happens when materials of high affinity interact in solution. I'm the case of calcium nitrate and epsom salt, if they interact at too high a concentration the calcium and sulfur bind into calcium sulfate, aka gypsum, aka wallboard, and fall right out of solution as a tan colored silt that your plants CANNOT USE hydroponically. So don't do that!

ttystikk said:

Silica totally jacks up your pH, I don't recommend it in hydroponic systems.

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I've noticed that for sure. I might stop using Si until I can get the good stuff that is ph neutral.

PJ Diaz said:

No, I keep the Si out of any concentrations. I always add Si to straight water first and try to let it sit 30 minutes or more if possible. Then add the concentrations to that 30 to 50 ppm Si water.

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The good folks at hydro-gardens told me to add silica to fresh water in the reservoir, run it through the plants for an hour or two, then dump it and add nutrient solution. That's right, they said DON'T mix them because the silica can't be absorbed by the plants if the pH is low enough for good nutrient absorption.

I've used silica as a foliar spray. It raises pH and gets absorbed directly. As a bonus, it changes the leaf surface pH and makes it much harder for powdery mildew to form.

My Name is Mike said:

Damn... twas looking forward to seeing what si could do. Appreciate the heads up.

I'm trying to follow your advice above. I'm only doing a small op with 2 dwc 5gals. I keep my mix in 5gal water jugs, 1 with nutes and 1 with just RO for top ups or rez changes.

I'm confused on your example of stock. I understand the ratios but how I'm reading it is you keep a stock of mix + calcium nitrate in 1 bucket and another bucket of just Epsom salts. You then add to your res until the right ec is achieved. Merh?

Click to expand...

ttystikk said:

The stock solution is just for the mix. Because both calcium nitrate and epsom salt are each a single nutrient double salt, there's no need to make stock solutions with them.

The discussion of mixing the nutrients is to highlight the necessity of mixing calcium nitrate into solution separately from the rest. This minimises the risk of "flocculation", a chemistry term for what happens when materials of high affinity interact in solution. I'm the case of calcium nitrate and epsom salt, if they interact at too high a concentration the calcium and sulfur bind into calcium sulfate, aka gypsum, aka wallboard, and fall right out of solution as a tan colored silt that your plants CANNOT USE hydroponically. So don't do that!

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I've been making concentrated A and B solutions with Jacks 321, by putting Jacks + Epsom Salts in "part A", and just CalNit in "part B". I keep the 321 rations for the concentrate solutions (ie: 90 of Jacks + 20g epsom for part A, and 60g Calnit for part B), then just mix equal parts of the concentrations into water to achieve desired EC. I will also often make a premixed "stock" of 321 that is around 2x to 3x my desired EC, so that I can add that to my res when EC is low to easily hit my mark.

ttystikk said:

The good folks at hydro-gardens told me to add silica to fresh water in the reservoir, run it through the plants for an hour or two, then dump it and add nutrient solution. That's right, they said DON'T mix them because the silica can't be absorbed by the plants if the pH is low enough for good nutrient absorption.

I've used silica as a foliar spray. It raises pH and gets absorbed directly. As a bonus, it changes the leaf surface pH and makes it much harder for powdery mildew to form.

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Interesting. I assume that advice is for Potassium Silicate. I wonder if there's a difference when using mono-silicic acid?

PJ Diaz said:

Interesting. I assume that advice is for Potassium Silicate. I wonder if there's a difference when using mono-silicic acid?

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(When in doubt, ask a chemist. Fortunately, my girlfriend is a chemist!) Here's what she found;


Long story short; they say the acid form can be used directly in hydroponic systems. I'll have to look into it.

PJ Diaz said:

Interesting. I assume that advice is for Potassium Silicate. I wonder if there's a difference when using mono-silicic acid?

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Here's an educational advertisement she found;

ttystikk said:

(When in doubt, ask a chemist. Fortunately, my girlfriend is a chemist!) Here's what she found;

SAAT: Silicic acid agro technology/the use of silicic acid in agriculture

For optimal growth all relevant nutrients are needed. Among the nutrients, silicon is an ignored nutrient due to the common opinion that plants do no..

www.longdom.org

Long story short; they say the acid form can be used directly in hydroponic systems. I'll have to look into it.

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ttystikk said:

Here's an educational advertisement she found;

The Power of Mono-Silicic Acid – AGRO-SOLUTIONS

agro-solutions.nl

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Yeah, it's just really expensive. This stuff seems to be the best value that I've found. My buddy was supposed to send me a sample, but he's a flake.

PJ Diaz said:

Yeah, it's just really expensive. This stuff seems to be the best value that I've found. My buddy was supposed to send me a sample, but he's a flake.

Mono-silicic — Grow-Genius

40% monosilicic acid w/w. Ultra fast-acting silicon nutrient. Strengthens natural growth and defences for bigger, healthier plants with increased resistance.

www.grow-genius.com

View attachment 4873307

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Fortunately, one shouldn't need much.

Techno info on silica.


I use ArmorSi and just make sure my PH never exceeds 7.5 during the mixing process to prevent precip/fallout.

TintEastwood said:

Techno info on silica.

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I use ArmorSi and just make sure my PH never exceeds 7.5 during the mixing process to prevent precip/fallout.

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I have noticed that Armor Si does lead to ph rise in my res, and recently when I tested my runoff I was surprised to see it at 7.0, when I'm inputting under 6.0.

PJ Diaz said:

Yeah, it's just really expensive. This stuff seems to be the best value that I've found. My buddy was supposed to send me a sample, but he's a flake.

Mono-silicic — Grow-Genius

40% monosilicic acid w/w. Ultra fast-acting silicon nutrient. Strengthens natural growth and defences for bigger, healthier plants with increased resistance.

www.grow-genius.com

View attachment 4873307

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I read into this pretty deeply and it explains all the issues I was having with other silica products in hydroponics.

ttystikk said:

Ok, that's EXACTLY the same ratios between nutrients as 3-2-1.

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i think there are some peeps that run jacks at 3g, 2g, and 1g. some don't use the exact ratio