joe the plumber
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Doctor Pot
Well-Known Member
Wow crackerjax, you're really kicking that straw man's ass!
VictorVIcious
Well-Known Member
You really don't expect me to fall for all of that. 'We will take our money and run' bullshit, do you?
As a young man, I remember buying US Savings Bonds, that was what you did. You saved your money. The way it was explained to me, the 'Government' could afford to pay you the interest because the interest they were paying to you, was less than the interest rate the could get it for from the Federal Reserve Board.
Now, when you can explain how the Federal Reserve Board 'contributes' to a "Free Market Society" I will listen to what you say.
Started out backed by our gold ( now it 'theirs). The supposed problem is the crunch in the credit market. No one does business with cash anymore. The States are selling bonds, to pay todays bills, and the Fed just keeps printing money, housing will never go down, yea right. Interest paid by us does not do us any good. It just puts us farther in debt.
Barrack Obama is a millionaire, I heard it on NPR, never did verify that. He built an organiztion that defeated the most powerful woman, politically, in the US, raised $150,000,000.00 last month, and you don't think he has any experience making a business? Must have some intelligent people really fooled. VV
As a young man, I remember buying US Savings Bonds, that was what you did. You saved your money. The way it was explained to me, the 'Government' could afford to pay you the interest because the interest they were paying to you, was less than the interest rate the could get it for from the Federal Reserve Board.
Now, when you can explain how the Federal Reserve Board 'contributes' to a "Free Market Society" I will listen to what you say.
Started out backed by our gold ( now it 'theirs). The supposed problem is the crunch in the credit market. No one does business with cash anymore. The States are selling bonds, to pay todays bills, and the Fed just keeps printing money, housing will never go down, yea right. Interest paid by us does not do us any good. It just puts us farther in debt.
Barrack Obama is a millionaire, I heard it on NPR, never did verify that. He built an organiztion that defeated the most powerful woman, politically, in the US, raised $150,000,000.00 last month, and you don't think he has any experience making a business? Must have some intelligent people really fooled. VV
CrackerJax
New Member
Vertise read every word. He was just overwhelmed.
Obama has already been bought and paid for by the banking industry. Shh, don't tell the hippies. So easily mislead.....
out.
Obama has already been bought and paid for by the banking industry. Shh, don't tell the hippies. So easily mislead.....
out.
Chrisuperfly
Well-Known Member
Bottom line is Barack Obama's economic "plan" will destroy the small business.
One of the first aspects of the Obama tax plan is to reverse the Bush tax cuts which gave, on average, a $1200.00 tax reduction to a family of four. So by reversing the Bush tax cuts Obama will first raise the taxes of every tax payer who received a reduction from President Bush. The Bush tax cuts reduced taxes in ALL income groups across the board. So even if Obama, "reduces," taxes for ,"95%," of taxpayers their net bottom line will be a tax increase because of the reversal of the Bush tax cuts.
Second, Obama's plan is to increase the Capitol Gains tax by 5% from its current 15% to 20%. This one tax increase alone will affect Americans across the board as Capitol Gains come from several sources including stocks, bonds and real estate. Also it is proven that when Capitol Gain tax rates are lowered revenues are up.
Now for my personal favorite point of the Obama tax plan. Raising taxes on income earners who make $250,000 a year or more. Many small business people do not separate their personal income from that of their business and as such every aspect of their small company will receive a sizable tax increase under the Obama plan causing many to go belly up as the tax burden will destroy their small company.
The Obama penalizing success plan will take the top marginal tax rate up to 55% while phasing out personal exemptions which will revert many back to the old practice of disguising personal income as a Capitol Gain and begin the migration of capitol to overseas sources where the tax rate would be lower.
Obama's tax plan will put The United States among the top tax countries in the world and when combining federal and state taxes which will exceed 60% only Hungary will have a higher top tax rate than The United States.
These countries that have such high top tax rates provide a clue as to the economic impact of the Obama tax plan. The average unemployment in these countries is 7.35 percent. Denmark shows only a 3.9 percent unemployment but spends over 5% of its GDP on unemployment programs which in actuality takes its unemployment rate up to over 7 %.
In addition to the increase in unemployment that the Obama plan will spur, investment and manipulation of income from transferring income to capitol gains in order to pay a lesser tax rate will reduce economic growth and greatly slow the economy.
Also because of the high tax rate that already exists in States like New York in addition to the moving of assets abroad to countries like France, Canada and Great Britain to take advantage of lower tax rates, many businesses will move to lower tax states like Florida and Delaware to again avoid the much higher taxation with the combined state and federal taxes.
The long term effects of the Obama plan will come as the deficit will grow because revenues will decrease and taxing the,"rich," is also not an infinite source of government revenues. When more money is needed to pay for huge entitlements already in place like Social Security and Medicare combined with the Universal Health Care that Obama promises to pass in the first 100 days along with other massive entitlements on the Obama promise list, the only source of taxation to cover these massive government spending programs will be the middle income earners which comprise the majority of the work force.
Lets also not forget that Obama has surrounded himself with people who are accreditted with a portion of the financial mess we are in now. 44% of this country does not pay taxes it is getting almost to a point that the takers outnumber the earners.....so I ask all the naysayers again, where is the incentive to succeed?
One of the first aspects of the Obama tax plan is to reverse the Bush tax cuts which gave, on average, a $1200.00 tax reduction to a family of four. So by reversing the Bush tax cuts Obama will first raise the taxes of every tax payer who received a reduction from President Bush. The Bush tax cuts reduced taxes in ALL income groups across the board. So even if Obama, "reduces," taxes for ,"95%," of taxpayers their net bottom line will be a tax increase because of the reversal of the Bush tax cuts.
Second, Obama's plan is to increase the Capitol Gains tax by 5% from its current 15% to 20%. This one tax increase alone will affect Americans across the board as Capitol Gains come from several sources including stocks, bonds and real estate. Also it is proven that when Capitol Gain tax rates are lowered revenues are up.
Now for my personal favorite point of the Obama tax plan. Raising taxes on income earners who make $250,000 a year or more. Many small business people do not separate their personal income from that of their business and as such every aspect of their small company will receive a sizable tax increase under the Obama plan causing many to go belly up as the tax burden will destroy their small company.
The Obama penalizing success plan will take the top marginal tax rate up to 55% while phasing out personal exemptions which will revert many back to the old practice of disguising personal income as a Capitol Gain and begin the migration of capitol to overseas sources where the tax rate would be lower.
Obama's tax plan will put The United States among the top tax countries in the world and when combining federal and state taxes which will exceed 60% only Hungary will have a higher top tax rate than The United States.
These countries that have such high top tax rates provide a clue as to the economic impact of the Obama tax plan. The average unemployment in these countries is 7.35 percent. Denmark shows only a 3.9 percent unemployment but spends over 5% of its GDP on unemployment programs which in actuality takes its unemployment rate up to over 7 %.
In addition to the increase in unemployment that the Obama plan will spur, investment and manipulation of income from transferring income to capitol gains in order to pay a lesser tax rate will reduce economic growth and greatly slow the economy.
Also because of the high tax rate that already exists in States like New York in addition to the moving of assets abroad to countries like France, Canada and Great Britain to take advantage of lower tax rates, many businesses will move to lower tax states like Florida and Delaware to again avoid the much higher taxation with the combined state and federal taxes.
The long term effects of the Obama plan will come as the deficit will grow because revenues will decrease and taxing the,"rich," is also not an infinite source of government revenues. When more money is needed to pay for huge entitlements already in place like Social Security and Medicare combined with the Universal Health Care that Obama promises to pass in the first 100 days along with other massive entitlements on the Obama promise list, the only source of taxation to cover these massive government spending programs will be the middle income earners which comprise the majority of the work force.
Lets also not forget that Obama has surrounded himself with people who are accreditted with a portion of the financial mess we are in now. 44% of this country does not pay taxes it is getting almost to a point that the takers outnumber the earners.....so I ask all the naysayers again, where is the incentive to succeed?
Bongulator
Well-Known Member
Obama will simply restore the tax rates for the wealthier among us that were in place during the eight Clinton years and the four George H.W. Bush years. Small businesses and rich folks did just fine during those 12 years. Maybe the rich won't do quite as well as they did the last eight years, but hey, they did that well on the backs of the middle class, so now it's time to reverse that for a while and restore our middle class.
Obviously if you're one of the top 3% of income earners, you would want to vote for McPalin, if getting richer than you already are is your sole concern. Everyone else will do better with Obama in terms of tax rates.
Also, don't worry about corporate tax rates. Unless you're an idiot, you won't pay a dime of corporate taxes. I ran my own business for many years, and never paid any corporate taxes. That will remain true, because nobody is addressing the easy-to-exploit loopholes. What's important isn't the base tax rate, but the average tax rate that is actually paid. For most businesses, THAT rate is 0%, and is obviously among the lowest tax rates in the world.
Obviously if you're one of the top 3% of income earners, you would want to vote for McPalin, if getting richer than you already are is your sole concern. Everyone else will do better with Obama in terms of tax rates.
Also, don't worry about corporate tax rates. Unless you're an idiot, you won't pay a dime of corporate taxes. I ran my own business for many years, and never paid any corporate taxes. That will remain true, because nobody is addressing the easy-to-exploit loopholes. What's important isn't the base tax rate, but the average tax rate that is actually paid. For most businesses, THAT rate is 0%, and is obviously among the lowest tax rates in the world.
ViRedd
New Member
But wait! Aren't you the same guy who was complaining about the oil corporations in Alaska paying that high tax rate?
Vi
Bongulator
Well-Known Member
I think the rate should be lowered, even for oil companies. However, they need to address the loopholes so that what we say the rate is, is actually what is paid. Most small businesses pay nothing. (Large businesses can't loophole away such vast sums, so they do end up paying some.) But no business should be hit with a 75% tax rate.
Saying the rate is 30% or whatever only SOUNDS high. But when the actual rate PAID is 0%, well, 0% is pretty low. Lower the 30% to 10%, but take it off the top or something, so it cannot be dodged. (Small businesses would hate that, incidentally, because then they'd actually have to pay some taxes, whereas they mostly do not now.)
Saying the rate is 30% or whatever only SOUNDS high. But when the actual rate PAID is 0%, well, 0% is pretty low. Lower the 30% to 10%, but take it off the top or something, so it cannot be dodged. (Small businesses would hate that, incidentally, because then they'd actually have to pay some taxes, whereas they mostly do not now.)
CrackerJax
New Member
Tax rates do not affect Govt. revenue folks. It just either stimulates it business by keeping them low, or it discourages business by making them high.
Clinton rode a tech bubble not of his making. He just got lucky (nothing wrong with that). Obama will have no bubble to work with. It's the other way around. A tax and spend president is the exact opposite of what this country needs right now.
It has nothing to do with one's party affiliation (it shouldn't anyways), but in a basic understanding of how economies actually perform given alternate stimuli. If you don't have that foundation of knowledge within you already, you end up a copy/paster and a willing tool in an industry of misinformation by folks who want to have power over you.
And no Vertise, i am not a republican, i believe in gay marriage, am pro gun, and pro abortion. There is no party affiliation I can belong to that shares my view on social issues.
On economic issues however, I have to bite the bullet and vote McCain because the alternative is much much worse.
I actually like Obama, but not as my President. He needs more job experience. He's young, he can try again. Just get the economic cobwebs out of his head first.
out.
Clinton rode a tech bubble not of his making. He just got lucky (nothing wrong with that). Obama will have no bubble to work with. It's the other way around. A tax and spend president is the exact opposite of what this country needs right now.
It has nothing to do with one's party affiliation (it shouldn't anyways), but in a basic understanding of how economies actually perform given alternate stimuli. If you don't have that foundation of knowledge within you already, you end up a copy/paster and a willing tool in an industry of misinformation by folks who want to have power over you.
And no Vertise, i am not a republican, i believe in gay marriage, am pro gun, and pro abortion. There is no party affiliation I can belong to that shares my view on social issues.
On economic issues however, I have to bite the bullet and vote McCain because the alternative is much much worse.
I actually like Obama, but not as my President. He needs more job experience. He's young, he can try again. Just get the economic cobwebs out of his head first.
out.
CrackerJax
New Member
One last thing. I read all the time about people getting overheated about tax rates. especially corporate rates.
A corporate tax is merely a shadow tax upon the citizenry. Corporations don't actually pay taxes, they pass it on to who? You & I that's who. This is a great ploy used by both sides of the aisle. Do not be fooled!! You pay those taxes. Raise Corporate taxes and watch your cost of living rise and rise.
Low tax rate = investment and entreprise are encouraged and economy picks up.
High tax rate = investment is dimmed and economy slows down.
Govt. revenue remains about equal no matter the rates.
The choice should be a simple one.
A corporate tax is merely a shadow tax upon the citizenry. Corporations don't actually pay taxes, they pass it on to who? You & I that's who. This is a great ploy used by both sides of the aisle. Do not be fooled!! You pay those taxes. Raise Corporate taxes and watch your cost of living rise and rise.
Low tax rate = investment and entreprise are encouraged and economy picks up.
High tax rate = investment is dimmed and economy slows down.
Govt. revenue remains about equal no matter the rates.
The choice should be a simple one.
ViRedd
New Member
Man CJ, I agree with everything above, including your take on O'Bama ... if you mean by "economic cobwebs" that he turns around his redistribution of wealth ideas. On party affiliations, have you checked out the Libertarian Party? Based upon what you said above, I believe their platform fits your stance pretty well.
Vi
CrackerJax
New Member
yes I have checked out the Libertarian party and they have a good platform. I find it easier to just be an Independent and swing my vote for the most qualified. The LESSER of two evils in this case.
What this country and all the ObamaManiacs should be really doing is trying to bring a THIRD option to the elections. This will do more than anything else to increase government responsibility.
Instead the Obamainians are intent upon increasing the economic slaves in this country.
So easily misled are the youth.
The "left's" favorite target. No coincidence that the school systems are replete of economics .
out.
out.
What this country and all the ObamaManiacs should be really doing is trying to bring a THIRD option to the elections. This will do more than anything else to increase government responsibility.
Instead the Obamainians are intent upon increasing the economic slaves in this country.
So easily misled are the youth.
The "left's" favorite target. No coincidence that the school systems are replete of economics .
out.
out.
ElBarto
Well-Known Member
It's a shame that the school systems aren't a bit more (or less?) "replete" of English and then I might be able to figure out whatever point it is you're trying to make.
Doctor Pot
Well-Known Member
You keep saying this, so you might want to know that it isn't actually true. I'm assuming you're referring to the real phenomenon in which tax revenue spikes after a capital gains tax cut. But this spike doesn't result in a long-term increase in revenue. When a capital gains tax cut gets passed, investors all know about it, and so they hold onto their assets until the new tax rate is in effect. The increase in selling immediately after the tax rate cut temporarily increases government revenue, but it is offset by the decrease in revenue in the months before the tax cut. And once the buying and selling settles to normal rates, government revenue is indeed lower under a lower tax rate.
Chrisuperfly
Well-Known Member
Why is everyone going after this Joe the Plumber guy, all he did was ask a question.
CrackerJax
New Member
No, I am not referring to spikes i capital gains taxes. I am talking about ALL revenue. Not just this one or that one but the TOTALITY of what the FED rakes in every year. Long term studies consistently prove that tax rates don't overly increase govt. revenue.
However, low tax rate sstimulate the economy (private efficient side of the equation) and prosperity begins. The opposite is true with high tax rates. Well, what about Clinton one may ask? that was a bubble variable which will average out just the same.
High tax rates do several things....
Slows everything down (except govt. spending).
Businesses flee (look at California, where is Silcon Valley again? Texas)
Consumer cost of living goes up while his taxes increase, adding to economic malaise.
So why do politicians want to increase taxes Cracker?
Glad u asked.
Because they crave the power that is associated with that revenue. Why wouldn't they? They are human after all, despite the rumors about Nancy Pelosi and George Bush.
out.
However, low tax rate sstimulate the economy (private efficient side of the equation) and prosperity begins. The opposite is true with high tax rates. Well, what about Clinton one may ask? that was a bubble variable which will average out just the same.
High tax rates do several things....
Slows everything down (except govt. spending).
Businesses flee (look at California, where is Silcon Valley again? Texas)
Consumer cost of living goes up while his taxes increase, adding to economic malaise.
So why do politicians want to increase taxes Cracker?
Glad u asked.
Because they crave the power that is associated with that revenue. Why wouldn't they? They are human after all, despite the rumors about Nancy Pelosi and George Bush.
out.
CrackerJax
New Member
umm, that was a joke! i will put in smilies for you to help you follow along next time, k?
Spitzered
Well-Known Member
Its called 'popping smoke'. Obama spoke without the aid of a teleprompter or anyone proof reading his statements. He has done it before.
Some people didn't care for his answer. But the ones who are afraid that his answer will affect the outcome of the election...... smoke and cover the answer by focusing attention on the one who instigated the issue.
If you can discredit him, that is what people will concentrate on and remember rather than 'spreading the wealth' answer.
Its a time honored ploy by those with no honor.