kant's categorical imperative

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
so even if she is correct, it still sucks? we would rather live with a denial of our situation than admit that even our most charitable actions are nothing more than the product of our basest desires? just go ahead and admit it, it's a liberating experience. admit that we are no better or worse than the slithering creatures beneath our feet and that our altruism is nothing but a crock of shit. you can try to escape it and become a greater man, but you'll only realize that even that quest is still based in the selfish desire to be more than you are. give up and realize that there's nothing wrong with being what we are. we are not gods. our self-interest is an integral part of our humanity and a necessity for the survival of the species. you can consider it a sin when taken to extremes, but you can't escape it.
Ah, thank you - I missed it before.

It is circular reasoning - that is what always bugged me about it though I never put my finger on it. No matter what you do it will always circle back to self interest. If I sacrifice my life even for someone I never met it is because I value my actions more than my life so it is self serving.

It's just classic circular reasoning.

How about this instead - everything that happens, happens because God wants it to.
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
How about this instead - everything that happens, happens because God wants it to.
how about just admitting that self-interest is perfectly all right. we cannot help but see the world as a reflection of ourselves, our view of the world around us is always colored by our own self-image. even our impression of god is influenced by how we view ourselves. so why can't caring for ourselves can be seen as a form of caring for the world and caring for those around us as a way of caring for ourselves? demonizing self-interest is a foolhardy venture, so why not just admit to it and go on from there?
 

ChChoda

Well-Known Member
In dreams, when I'm flying, I usually see the world around me through my own two dream eyes. If I begin to fall, I immediately see myself falling from an outside observation point.

This seems to be true of most humans. Successful, fulfilled people move through the world experiencing life to the fullest, knowing that ultimately their happiness is entirely dependent on self acceptance. The unmotivated dregs see themselves as if from afar, allowing themselves to claim perpetual victim status, and unable to take responsibility for their own fate.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
how about just admitting that self-interest is perfectly all right. we cannot help but see the world as a reflection of ourselves, our view of the world around us is always colored by our own self-image. even our impression of god is influenced by how we view ourselves. so why can't caring for ourselves can be seen as a form of caring for the world and caring for those around us as a way of caring for ourselves? demonizing self-interest is a foolhardy venture, so why not just admit to it and go on from there?
There is nothing wrong with self interest. But, the ability to rise above it is one of the things that separates us from animals. Many people do act only in their self interest and to what extent we do this in a lot of ways determines whether or not we are good people.

After all, we could essentially define an unethical bastard as one who allows his self interest and not his conscious to guide his actions. And a psychopath is defined by the inability to empathies with others - it is one who is only aware of his self interest. Objectivism is essentially the rationalization of psychotic, unethical behavior.

Now this is not to say that we should always be selfless. We have rules, morals and social contracts that determine how selfless or how self serving one ought to be. Some choose to go above and beyond, and some choose to be criminals. Hopefully, we all at least do the minimum that is required.

It is however easy to get caught in the circular reasoning that reduces everything to self interest.

Here is a syllogistic model of Objectivism.

People only do what pleases them.
People only do what does not please them because doing so pleases them more.
Therefore, people always do what pleases them.

In this case, the conclusion is merely a reiteration of the first premise.


PS - I just noticed something. The point about God wanting stuff to happen was an example of circular reasoning - i wasn't suggesting this is the case.
 

jeffchr

Well-Known Member
if we truly had self-interest as our purpose, we'd be caring for our environment and the residence (species). because we are interdependent.

more species will go extinct between 1980 and 2040 than went extinct in the last 65 million years. "self-interest" is evil because it has no respect for anything or anyone to the detriment of all other earthly inhabitants.
 

ChChoda

Well-Known Member
It's so eerie when people do that... As they alone inhabit their body, as they alone formulate and express the thoughts conceived by their own minds, they disavow the concept of "self-interest as the fundamental motivation for all human endeavors", claiming the total embrace of self-interest is either evil, or irrational, and often both.

I think.

Therefore I am.

Therefore I think about who I am.

You think?





Descartes-

http://www.publicbookshelf.com/public_html/Outline_of_Great_Books_Volume_I/ithinkth_bga.html
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
"self-interest" is evil because it has no respect for anything or anyone to the detriment of all other earthly inhabitants.
self-interest does not deny an interest in others and it does not preclude caring for the environment and other species. an enlightened self-interest does not ignore instances of interdependence, but takes them into account. labeling self-interest evil is labeling existence evil, because that is how all creatures survive.
 

ChChoda

Well-Known Member
Or is it...?

I think.

Therefore I think about who I am.

Therefore I am.



I think I am a good person.

Therefore I think about what is required of me in order to continue to be a good person.

Therefore I become a better person.

I think I am a good person.
 
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