Led just for Veg in a 5x5 tent?

dakilla187

Well-Known Member
Ive been running t5 lights forever and have zero exp with led, with the recent change with t5 pricing etc I think I should switch..

I only use the 5x5 tent to veg sometimes packed only at night and I will never flower indoors under light,vegging plants remain under the sun during the day...

I will be replacing 8 4ft t5 lights..

Any suggestions for something turn key just for 'veg', price is not an issue.. I see a lot of options but they all emphasize flowering as a main selling point...
 
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Billytheluther

Well-Known Member
If you ain’t looking to flower under it just to veg and you may fill a 5x5 i feel a 480w fixture may be perfect, heck you might aswell go bigger since you can dim them.. check out the mars hydro fce serries
 

Boatguy

Well-Known Member
Ive been running t5 lights forever and have zero exp with led, with the recent change with t5 pricing etc I think I should switch..

I only use the 5x5 tent to veg sometimes packed only at night and I will never flower indoors under light,vegging plants remain under the sun during the day...

I will be replacing 8 4ft t5 lights..

Any suggestions for something turn key just for 'veg', price is not an issue.. I see a lot of options but they all emphasize flowering as a main selling point...
Why not just convert your existing t5 fixtures to led?
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Ive been running t5 lights forever and have zero exp with led, with the recent change with t5 pricing etc I think I should switch..

I only use the 5x5 tent to veg sometimes packed only at night and I will never flower indoors under light,vegging plants remain under the sun during the day...

I will be replacing 8 4ft t5 lights..

Any suggestions for something turn key just for 'veg', price is not an issue.. I see a lot of options but they all emphasize flowering as a main selling point...
Very few vendors sell LED's that have a veg spectrum, a la blue heavy.

HLG is one, Growcraft is the other. HLG appears to be focused on the commercial market but they have a loyal fan base in the personal grower market. The most striking feature to me is the hot spot that they have, historically, generated and that's because they're still using boards instead of light bars. The answer to that is to raise the light until the PPFD map evens out. That's OK in a commercial (high ceiling environment) but I don't know how home growers deal with it. HLG did upgrade their lights to put a skirt around it to act as a reflector. That will, I assume, help reduce the hot spot but they can't get around the fact that it's a board style light.

My weapon of choice was Growcraft. My tent is 2' x 4' and I use an X2 veg (X2 = 2 light bars) and an X3 flower. The blue heavy spectrum creates short, stocky plants with lots of foliage and very tight internodal space. Growcraft is an expensive product, one cost driver being that they're located in the US and their products are built in the US. While that increases costs, it also means that you can call tech support and get an answer immediately and, if there is an issue, a company in the US is generally able to response to issues more quickly than if the company is located outside CONUS. I started with a Mars SP 3000 and also use a ViparSpectra XS-1500. Those lights are now fill lights.

Info on the veg and flower spectra on the product page for each light. This is a link to the page for their 5'x 5' light.
 

dakilla187

Well-Known Member
'The blue heavy spectrum creates short, stocky plants with lots of foliage and very tight internodal space'

Seems the opposite of t5, do all led's veg this way? I also noticed this when observing a friends grow, short little bushy plants....
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
'The blue heavy spectrum creates short, stocky plants with lots of foliage and very tight internodal space'

Seems the opposite of t5, do all led's veg this way? I also noticed this when observing a friends grow, short little bushy plants....
No. Most LED's are "white" LED's which are includes the spectra of both the veg and flower lights. The two big names that I'm aware of that makes separates are HLG and Growcraft. All the others sell white LEDs.

I checked the spectrum of the T5 and I thought it was blue-heavy. Sorry 'bout that.
 

grotbags

Well-Known Member
Ive been running t5 lights forever and have zero exp with led, with the recent change with t5 pricing etc I think I should switch..

I only use the 5x5 tent to veg sometimes packed only at night and I will never flower indoors under light,vegging plants remain under the sun during the day...

I will be replacing 8 4ft t5 lights..

Any suggestions for something turn key just for 'veg', price is not an issue.. I see a lot of options but they all emphasize flowering as a main selling point...
what "K" are the t5 you are wanting to replace?
99% of all led lights on sale today have more than enough blue light in their spectrums for vegative growth.
take what led growlight manufacturers say about "flower" and "veg" spectrums with a huge pinch of salt...
 

dakilla187

Well-Known Member
Im replacing 6400k


Im out a tube and need replacements but the price has doubled since my last bulk tube order.... Im still weighing paying $40 for 5 tubes vs $40 for 10 two years ago vs buying a $500 led... My plants eat the suns rays during the day, in the evening they go in the tent..

Im looking at the MARS HYDRO FC-E6500, the spider farmer is considerably more pricier
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
99% of all led lights on sale today have more than enough blue light in their spectrums for vegative growth.
"white" lights combine veg and bloom functions so they're a compromise solution (I realize that every product is a compromise) by bringing in the spectra from veg lights and bloom lights. Veg (blue heavy) and flower (red heavy) lights directly impacts the morphology of the plants - blue make plants "short and stout" whereas red photons promote cell expansion. I can't cite the source but it's from one one the, perhaps, dozen research papers on my computer, but if you flower with <4% blue you will tend to get malformed foliage. That tidbit may have been in the Bugbee paper where he publishes the reduction in yield as % blue photons increased from 4% to 20%. Given that blue inhibits cell expansion in cannabis, it's not a shock that yield is reduced but what was interesting was that at 20% blue, which is a not uncommon percentage, yield was down by 10 or 15%.
That's part of the compromise of a "white led".
The other part is that, seeing that red photons encourage cell expansion, plants that are vegged with white LED's will tend to be taller than cannabis plants that are vegged with light that have a higher percentage of blue, as in a veg light.

In Bugbee's most popular videos he describes it as light quality impacts plant morphology while light quantity impacts yield. Everything I've read since I saw that video 2 years ago confirms that (I'm sure Bruce is relieved that I agree with him…)

That's sarcasm, BTW. ;-)

To address your statement, yes, there's enough to support vegetative growth but that statement glosses over the complexity and the tradeoffs involved.

take what led growlight manufacturers and vendors say about "flower" and "veg" spectrums the products they're selling with a huge pinch of salt...
FTFY.

I agree. The internet makes a lot of information accessible but I get the feeling that consumers today, because of the incredible increase in wealth/disposable income, just don't bother to "look things up" and, many times, unfortunately, they part with their money for a product for which they don't get good value. Grow lights are one of those products where that happens. It's painful to read a grow journal from someone who has a Charlie Brown Christmas tree type cannabis plant even though they bought a "600 watt LED" on Amazon for $59.99 and can't figure out why their plant is so small.

Last night I watched a representative from LEDTonic display his complete ignorance about grow lights and plant biology. He rattled on for at least 5 minutes about how growers didn't need to worry about "veg" and "flower" lights anymore because all of that was taken care of by white LED's. I did not expect him to go into the details about the impact of blue vs red on cannabis and then on growth and yield. For one reason, he would have to admit that his product is, in fact, a compromise solution. A reasonable buyer understands that because every product is a compromise. No, he decided to either lie through his teeth or he truly is completely ignorant. He stated that "in the old days" growers used MH in veg because the blue photons stopped plants from flowering and then they switched to HPS, and others, because the red heavy spectrum of the flower lights made cannabis flower.

It wasn't a parody - the link took me to LEDTonic.com (or tried to) - this pure ignorance, at best, from a spokesman for a company that manufactures and sells grow lights. And the irony is that their light for a 2' x 4' has superb uniformity*.


*If you try to access their website, you end up in shopify. That's either a really bad bug or LEDTonic is on its way out.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Im replacing 6400k


Im out a tube and need replacements but the price has doubled since my last bulk tube order.... Im still weighing paying $40 for 5 tubes vs $40 for 10 two years ago vs buying a $500 led... My plants eat the suns rays during the day, in the evening they go in the tent..

Im looking at the MARS HYDRO FC-E6500, the spider farmer is considerably more pricier
It looks like that light is a veg light due to the amount of blue in the spectrum.

If you want to replace that light with a veg light, the HLG (with caveats re. heat and hang height/uniformity) or Growcraft are candidates. If you're not going with a veg light, which means almost anything else on the market, you're going to have plants that re taller than they would be under a ver light and you'll hit the "blue photon penalty" in flower that I've described in another posting, and you'll save a few hundred dollars in purchase price.

If you want to go with a white LED, the Spider SE 7000 is superb. Unfortunately, ppfd charts.com is no longer running. It was run by a grower who goes by the name of LED Gardener on YouTube. He did his own PPFD testing using an automated setup that read PPFD at 3" or 6" intervals and at hang heights from 6" to 36" making it the most comprehensive set of data that I could find.

The SE 7000 was had incredible uniformity at all hang heights. My jaw dropped when I saw the PPFD charts for this light and, if I were in the 5' market, I'd probably go with that light.

Nothing against Mars. My first light, since I started growing again in 2021, was a Mars SP 3000. I got what I paid for but there are clear differences between the SP 3000 @ $400 and the Growcraft X3 at $650. That's why I recommended Growcraft when you said that price wasn't a concern - it's a very well designed and built product, with a five year warranty and stateside support. I don't like the fact that I've spend >$1k on two Growcraft lights but weed here in California is $50 for an eighth of mid-range cannabis so the $450 that I spent for the veg light paid back in the first grow I did with that light.

Another light that was a standout on ppfd charts.com was the Migro Aray lights. The Migro lights are lower power than the competitors. Shane does not recommend light levels as high as pretty much anyone else in the industry, including multiple researchers. He does, however, put his money where his mouth is so I give him props for that. There is no question you can grow a lot of weed and the benefit of a lower powered light is that the lights are less expensive than the competition (he doesn't use Samsung and Meanwell). A big attraction for me is that, due to their brilliant design, it's very easy to light an uneven canopy.

HTH.

Oh, one more thing — a lux meter costs about $35 and, for most grow situation, is as useful as a PAR meter. I bought my Apogee first and then bought a Uni-T so that I could test the conversion factor. There is a lot of value in a good PAR meter (I wouldn't buy a PhotoBIO or anything made with that same OEM sensor) but a Uni-T will get you readings that, in practical terms, are as useful as the readings from a PAR meter. If you're going to put hundreds and hundreds of dollars in to a light, it seems to make a lot of sense to set aside $35 for a lux meter.
 

jimihendrix1

Well-Known Member
My favorite LED is the new Mammoth 880w Mint White. Its got the new Samsung EVO Mint White led diodes, plus has both deep red, and far red diodes. Its spectrum is of that combining a HPS, and Metal Halide.
It has a spectrum from 435nm-730nm.
Its got 3752 diodes. 469 per bar-8 bars. 2613umol. Its alot of light for $1000, and is also dimmable. But its sold out so fast, more wont be available until late march.

They also make a 6 bar-680w light. The 6 bar is $800. These also sold out really fast, and will start shipping again between Jan 31-Feb 8th.

6 bar is 2000umol.
1675107558612.png
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
My favorite LED is the new Mammoth 880w Mint White. Its got the new Samsung EVO Mint White led diodes, plus has both deep red, and far red diodes. Its spectrum is of that combining a HPS, and Metal Halide.
It has a spectrum from 435nm-730nm.
Its got 3752 diodes. 469 per bar-8 bars. 2613umol. Its alot of light for $1000, and is also dimmable. But its sold out so fast, more wont be available until late march.

They also make a 6 bar-680w light. The 6 bar is $800. These also sold out really fast, and will start shipping again between Jan 31-Feb 8th.

6 bar is 2000umol.
View attachment 5254452
No doubt - that's a nice spectrum. And, for what you're getting, the price is very reasonable. I like it that there's a good amount of light > 660nm, too. I wish Growcraft would get off its ass and add far red!

If they could shoehorn that into a 3 bar light, that could give Atreum a run but it looks like Mammoth doesn't have products for that market.

Great info!
 

jimihendrix1

Well-Known Member
No doubt - that's a nice spectrum. And, for what you're getting, the price is very reasonable. I like it that there's a good amount of light > 660nm, too. I wish Growcraft would get off its ass and add far red!

If they could shoehorn that into a 3 bar light, that could give Atreum a run but it looks like Mammoth doesn't have products for that market.

Great info!
They do make a 430w 4 bar light but it doesnt use the new EVO diodes, but does have both the 660nm, and 730nm red spectum diodes. 1202umol.
 

grotbags

Well-Known Member
"white" lights combine veg and bloom functions so they're a compromise solution (I realize that every product is a compromise) by bringing in the spectra from veg lights and bloom lights.
99% of all led spectrums are a compromise because manufacturers are too busy chasing efficiency to care about spectrum.
most "led" veg spectrums are terrible, they contain far too much blue all centered around the 450nm pump.
most led "flower" spectrums arnt great because they contain too much blue, again all centered around the 450nm pump.
most "flower" led spectrums (4000/5000k white + 660 monos) veg most cultivars just fine, ie no excesive stretch on taller looser stacking plants and no over squatting shorter tighter node plants.

the reason why most led spectrums carry too much blue is because of the underlying nature of the technology, the InGaN 450nm pump. this InGaN pump with a phosphor coating to hit around 5000k produces the most effecient diodes (this has changed recently with samsungs evo's using a modified 435nm pump which improves efficiency over the 450nm pump but with other downsides imo).

the reason why you dont see led flower spectrums with less than 20% blue is because they literally cant make one without crashing efficiency.

the reason why you dont see led veg spectrums with a nice wide even band of blue from 400nm to 480nm is because they literally cant make one without crashing efficiency.

i agree re spectrum and morphology, anyone whos been around a bit and used the different lighting tech over the years knows fine well the effect spectrum can have on morphology, you dont need bugby to tell you that .:bigjoint:.
im a big fan of spectrum steering, higher blue content no far red during stretch, then pull the blue right back pump up the red and far red for bulk, then back to a bluer spectrum plus the far red at fade to finish up.
 

grotbags

Well-Known Member
My favorite LED is the new Mammoth 880w Mint White. Its got the new Samsung EVO Mint White led diodes, plus has both deep red, and far red diodes. Its spectrum is of that combining a HPS, and Metal Halide.
It has a spectrum from 435nm-730nm.
Its got 3752 diodes. 469 per bar-8 bars. 2613umol. Its alot of light for $1000, and is also dimmable. But its sold out so fast, more wont be available until late march.

They also make a 6 bar-680w light. The 6 bar is $800. These also sold out really fast, and will start shipping again between Jan 31-Feb 8th.

6 bar is 2000umol.
View attachment 5254452
i honestly dont think this is an overall improvment as far as spectrum goes, imo its still got far too much blue for a flower spectrum, sure its slightly broader with the double pump 435nm,evo + 450nm,301b but the addition of the evo diodes pulls the whole spectrum down towards the blue end, you are trading red for green and yellow and other than the 660nm pump from the monos the red end is starting to look a bit thin.
and the amount of far red in that spectrum they might aswell have not bothered...
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
99% of all led spectrums are a compromise because manufacturers are too busy chasing efficiency to care about spectrum.
most "led" veg spectrums are terrible, they contain far too much blue all centered around the 450nm pump.
most led "flower" spectrums arnt great because they contain too much blue, again all centered around the 450nm pump.
most "flower" led spectrums (4000/5000k white + 660 monos) veg most cultivars just fine, ie no excesive stretch on taller looser stacking plants and no over squatting shorter tighter node plants.

the reason why most led spectrums carry too much blue is because of the underlying nature of the technology, the InGaN 450nm pump. this InGaN pump with a phosphor coating to hit around 5000k produces the most effecient diodes (this has changed recently with samsungs evo's using a modified 435nm pump which improves efficiency over the 450nm pump but with other downsides imo).

the reason why you dont see led flower spectrums with less than 20% blue is because they literally cant make one without crashing efficiency.

the reason why you dont see led veg spectrums with a nice wide even band of blue from 400nm to 480nm is because they literally cant make one without crashing efficiency.

Thanks for the info. I appreciate the perspective of growers who have the insights into growing before LED's.

Your comments about efficiency are well taken and, while it might be frustrating for some growers, it reflects reality. Our governments have, frankly, completely pooched energy markets. The trillions of dollars spent on intermittent energy sources will take years and years to push through the system and money gets put back into shoring up baseload power, we are, in a word, screwed. I'm 66 years old (my first job out of college was doing accounting for refined oil products for an offshore oil company so energy has been a topic of interest for me since the late 70's) and it wouldn't surprise me if we aren't able to recover pricing in my lifetime. There are just so many players who are "raping the public fisc" that I don't see how it can return to normal anytime soon. </rant>

So, yes, efficiency is what the market wants.
i agree re spectrum and morphology, anyone whos been around a bit and used the different lighting tech over the years knows fine well the effect spectrum can have on morphology, you dont need bugby to tell you that .:bigjoint:.
im a big fan of spectrum steering, higher blue content no far red during stretch, then pull the blue right back pump up the red and far red for bulk, then back to a bluer spectrum plus the far red at fade to finish up.
Bugbee's the current "Johnny Appleseed" and I appreciate his info because he's got the data. There's a lot of mystery in the cannabis sites that I frequent and nowhere as much info being provided by the steady hand of experience growers.

Some of the new lights coming into the consumer market, where I play, have that level of control but that comes at a serious price increase.

How long before those features will be widely available (ie Mars, Spider, Vipar, etc.) having those features in their run of the mill lights?

My lights work within "standard" PAR. I've got a little Rapid LED Royal Blue puck ($30) and they make a far red puck that will be about the same price for the same small output. Would small lights like those are be sufficient to fill out a more optimal spectrum or is there something else that's needed to bring things…up to par?
 

grotbags

Well-Known Member
Some of the new lights coming into the consumer market, where I play, have that level of control but that comes at a serious price increase.
yer and doubt they get it right. the only real way to get true control and full spectrum is diy, but its not cheap and its not very efficient ie multiple drivers and using higher cri broader spectrum whites and less efficient monos to fill the "gaps".
How long before those features will be widely available (ie Mars, Spider, Vipar, etc.) having those features in their run of the mill lights?
probably never.
My lights work within "standard" PAR. I've got a little Rapid LED Royal Blue puck ($30) and they make a far red puck that will be about the same price for the same small output. Would small lights like those are be sufficient to fill out a more optimal spectrum or is there something else that's needed to bring things…up to par?
rapids royal puck puck is 450nm i think?, i thats the case you dont need to add them. like i said before i can more less guarantee you already have too much 450nm blue in your spectrum.
far red is good addition though, but there are better and cheaper ways off adding it other than using rapids old pucks.
 
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