Led Users Unite!
- Thread starter project fuoro
- Start date
curly604
Well-Known Member
well last time i took my seedlings out after about a week of growth in their but this time i might let em stay a bit longer.check out youtube people do full grows in those bad boys haha. and yep you can germ seeds in em they little pods of spongy shit that gets soaked from the res so i just drop em in takes a little longer but then you dont gotta transfer from paper towel and shit.
Vaporeyes
Member
Its like your accusing me of a shell game or something? one more comment like that and ill aim my 357 your way and nuke you.
The Lurker
Member
Hey, kids. 
I see some familiar faces on here! Boy, some of us do get around, don't we?
...the exact same thing happened to ME!
That's hilarious.
Coupled with the fact that some of the (more popular) boards are skewed rather heavily towards 18-24yo males (first time growers) vs. an older user population (check their Alexa and Quantcast statistics), and there is an unfortunate tendency on some boards to be...perhaps rather less polite and tolerant...than is normal for most person-person interactions.
And...how polite a person is towards another appears to be inversely proportional to the distance they are away from you at any given point in time.
('The closer they are...the nicer they get!" - George Carlin (RIP))
(BP seems to have some good users on it. )
DIY LEDs are rather simple to build using the method espoused by knna and others (Osram Golden Dragon /GD +, kapton tape, and direct attachment to extruded aluminum channel/finned heat sinks); there are plenty of journals out there that outline these methods in detail.
For someone who just wants to build a couple of arrays for personal use, this is an easy enough task to accomplish - and not overly exorbitant, compared to retail unit pricing.
Plus, you have the opportunity of using much better emitters (than those found in most commercial units). Efficiency is important; if you can only draw 200w for the same kinds of results as someone who's using a 300w 'commercial' panel, that is worth it in my book.
----
For some reason, people get nervous as soon as you mention the word 'soldering iron'...
And, reproducing all the problems you see in the typical Shenzhen-made panels which everyone and their fly-by-night drop-shipping brothers are trying to re-brand as actual 'distributors' or 'manufacturers' (i.e. extremely poor thermal management, using low-bin, low quality LEDs and drivers, recreating an inefficient point-source HID fixture type model, etc.) does nothing towards actually moving the technology forward.
Manufacturers make decisions all the time in favor of pricing (i.e. cost-cutting) at the expense of quality, longevity, and user ROI. What you see on the market today is largely reflective of exactly that - unfortunately. I spent several years living and working in Asia, and I can tell you that it is, at its core, very much a cultural thing over there. Management would rather spend their time figuring out how to cut another 10 cents out of existing production costs vs. actually making a better, more reliable product.
----
Folks, want to see a good example of purpose-built LED fixtures? Check out gudomeledgrow. There's a reason they just won the 2011 European Product Awards in their category for design. (And, you can get away with using only 22-23w/ sq ft vs. 30-40w for most other panels because they actually use decent emitters - unlike the claims of most of the snake-oil purveyors I've encountered.
Yes, you'll have pay for that up front - as you should. There is no free lunch. Besides, you'll end up paying for it either way - on the front-end, or the back-end.
I'd rather pay for good quality up front - and know what I'm actually getting. Part of the price one has to pay for being an early adopter of any non-mass market technology.
----
Besides, too many folks out there are still trying to swap out their HIDs and grow trees with these. Anyone with more than a couple of LED grows under their belt (or a knowledge of basic physics, and indoor growing in general) understands that, in terms of the greatest efficiency, they lend themselves almost solely to low-bed, SOG or ScrOG type growing - and that growers should adjust their methodologies accordingly. If you're not flowering like you would under T5's, you're wasting light, electricity ($$$) - and probably good genetics as well.
The 'bunch of LEDs in a puck' vs. spreading them out in an evenly spaced array over the entire garden just exacerbates the HID 'too much light in the middle, and not nearly enough on the edge' problem.
Beds and rows (and vertical training), not trees.
Cheers,
-TL
I see some familiar faces on here! Boy, some of us do get around, don't we? Gee, that's funny...
...the exact same thing happened to ME!
And yet, you still try to post here.
That's hilarious.
Yep. Every board seems to have its own character (and demographic) associated with it. Some are more PL-L (T5HO) friendly, others LED; still more, HID. A site starts to reflect the kinds of users it seems to attract. Get enough people of the same predilections, and those people will flock there faster than the other groups.
Coupled with the fact that some of the (more popular) boards are skewed rather heavily towards 18-24yo males (first time growers) vs. an older user population (check their Alexa and Quantcast statistics), and there is an unfortunate tendency on some boards to be...perhaps rather less polite and tolerant...than is normal for most person-person interactions.
And...how polite a person is towards another appears to be inversely proportional to the distance they are away from you at any given point in time.
('The closer they are...the nicer they get!" - George Carlin (RIP))
(BP seems to have some good users on it.
)Good thing the internet is a grand equalizer. Eventually, the truth always comes out.
Proud member since 2009.This public service message has been brought to you by:....The Better Business LED Grow Bureau!
Depends on what you're trying to build - and how pretty you want it to look.
DIY LEDs are rather simple to build using the method espoused by knna and others (Osram Golden Dragon /GD +, kapton tape, and direct attachment to extruded aluminum channel/finned heat sinks); there are plenty of journals out there that outline these methods in detail. For someone who just wants to build a couple of arrays for personal use, this is an easy enough task to accomplish - and not overly exorbitant, compared to retail unit pricing.
Plus, you have the opportunity of using much better emitters (than those found in most commercial units). Efficiency is important; if you can only draw 200w for the same kinds of results as someone who's using a 300w 'commercial' panel, that is worth it in my book.
----
For some reason, people get nervous as soon as you mention the word 'soldering iron'...
And, reproducing all the problems you see in the typical Shenzhen-made panels which everyone and their fly-by-night drop-shipping brothers are trying to re-brand as actual 'distributors' or 'manufacturers' (i.e. extremely poor thermal management, using low-bin, low quality LEDs and drivers, recreating an inefficient point-source HID fixture type model, etc.) does nothing towards actually moving the technology forward.
Manufacturers make decisions all the time in favor of pricing (i.e. cost-cutting) at the expense of quality, longevity, and user ROI. What you see on the market today is largely reflective of exactly that - unfortunately. I spent several years living and working in Asia, and I can tell you that it is, at its core, very much a cultural thing over there. Management would rather spend their time figuring out how to cut another 10 cents out of existing production costs vs. actually making a better, more reliable product.
----
Folks, want to see a good example of purpose-built LED fixtures? Check out gudomeledgrow. There's a reason they just won the 2011 European Product Awards in their category for design. (And, you can get away with using only 22-23w/ sq ft vs. 30-40w for most other panels because they actually use decent emitters - unlike the claims of most of the snake-oil purveyors I've encountered.
Yes, you'll have pay for that up front - as you should. There is no free lunch. Besides, you'll end up paying for it either way - on the front-end, or the back-end.
I'd rather pay for good quality up front - and know what I'm actually getting. Part of the price one has to pay for being an early adopter of any non-mass market technology.
----
Besides, too many folks out there are still trying to swap out their HIDs and grow trees with these. Anyone with more than a couple of LED grows under their belt (or a knowledge of basic physics, and indoor growing in general) understands that, in terms of the greatest efficiency, they lend themselves almost solely to low-bed, SOG or ScrOG type growing - and that growers should adjust their methodologies accordingly. If you're not flowering like you would under T5's, you're wasting light, electricity ($$$) - and probably good genetics as well.
The 'bunch of LEDs in a puck' vs. spreading them out in an evenly spaced array over the entire garden just exacerbates the HID 'too much light in the middle, and not nearly enough on the edge' problem.
Beds and rows (and vertical training), not trees.
Cheers,
-TL
ClaytheWhite
Member
Hi there folks,
In the midst of building a new stealth box and am pretty keen on trying out LED for my grow.
My grow space dimensions are roughly 4x3x2 feet. Ideally I would like to grow 2-4 plants in this space.
Now for the questions, how powerful an LED should i purchase to accomodate a grow of this size? Im currently looking at a 600w Blackstar, anybody have any experience with them can offer an opinion? Also, would very much appreciate an input from people growing in a similar enclosed space using solely LED lighting from seed to harvest. What kind of results are you seeing, problems you have encountered etc.
Thanks all, Peace.
In the midst of building a new stealth box and am pretty keen on trying out LED for my grow.
My grow space dimensions are roughly 4x3x2 feet. Ideally I would like to grow 2-4 plants in this space.
Now for the questions, how powerful an LED should i purchase to accomodate a grow of this size? Im currently looking at a 600w Blackstar, anybody have any experience with them can offer an opinion? Also, would very much appreciate an input from people growing in a similar enclosed space using solely LED lighting from seed to harvest. What kind of results are you seeing, problems you have encountered etc.
Thanks all, Peace.
BlackMesa
Active Member
I would suggest using 2 Blackstar 240w due to the height of your box, You can get much closer with the 240's and they will cover that space very efficiently and wouldn't be surprised if yield is very close to that of a 600w, 340 actualy watts I believe.
Dubnificent
Member
You do come across as a Spectra sales rep. But i plan on trying some. Can I get a plug? LOL. You do seem to have some knowledgeable and informed opinions.
It would be ~280w with two 240w Blackstars as far as I know, some people claim their watt readers say less than 140 each (but I'm pretty sure its 140-145 from what most owners have said)
I promise I'm not a salesrep or have gotten paid or anything like that. I don't know any coupon codes either. I just asked because I was interested in seeing how the LEDs from the company I chose compared to others. I want to upgrade to a lower watt light because my tent is too small for the one I have (so I want to see if any of those companies are better than the one I'd gone with already)
hoss12781
Well-Known Member
I like my pro-grows from hydroponics hut. A pic of some of the nugs from my last grow attached. I have two 180w units and one 250w unit in a garden that never has more than 4 (state laws to keep it a misdemeanor) autos. I was torn between these and blackstars and finally decided to pay a little bit more for these as they are made in the usa and backed by a 3 year warranty as opposed to lighthouse's one year.Dubnificent
Member
longranger
Active Member
I have posted periodically on this thread. Have done 3 LED grows now using a generic Chinese Ebay panel, two 240 Watt Blackstars, 2 Magenta Kessil h150s and 1 HH pro grow 180. All have worked quite well. Best results per watt have been with the kessils for sure. Not a plug, just my experience. Best bang for buck a tie between Blackstar and HH. The generic chinese panel with ?1W diodes works OK but is not in the same league as the others. My motivation to try out more expensive panels is low cause I have my current stuff dialed in and the results have been realy good. Hope this thread gets reinvigorated so I can continue to learn from others experiences
BlackMesa
Active Member
I think most can agree that buying LED's that list the watts of the diodes combined rather then what they actualy run at is now the standard. There are arguments from both manufacturers and consumers about this practice but anyone buying these lights know what the actual wattage is before they purchase, lets face it...this is a nitch market right now and anyone who is interested in LED's is going out of there way to do their homework before a purchase.
I'm able to look at it both ways with an open mind and understand that from a marketing standpoint it makes sense to use total LED possible wattage because 300w sounds a lot more attractive then 180 but more importantly I imagine there might be a bigger reason why not using actual wattage makes sense:
If I was selling 2 LED panels and 1 panel was using 50 - 3 watt diodes running each diode at 3 watts and another that is using 150 - 3 watt diodes at 1.5 watts to each diode do I market these lights as the same thing (a 150w panel)? Clearly one greatly differs from the other and they both cost different amounts of money to produce and have totally different lifespans. This is why it doesn't bother me that panels are sold as a different amount of wattage then they actually put out, there is more going on here and I have more diodes giving more coverage then the other.
I guess what I'm getting at is that people need to accept the standard of how these panels are labeled and marketed and you know the real answer anyway because your not stoopid and invested time in research right? Everyone knows what every panel actually pulls in wattage, If the manufacturer doesn't list actual wattage the answer is just a Google away so accept that and stop crying about it.
This rant is just for the whiners who don't understand marketing and business in general.
I'm able to look at it both ways with an open mind and understand that from a marketing standpoint it makes sense to use total LED possible wattage because 300w sounds a lot more attractive then 180 but more importantly I imagine there might be a bigger reason why not using actual wattage makes sense:
If I was selling 2 LED panels and 1 panel was using 50 - 3 watt diodes running each diode at 3 watts and another that is using 150 - 3 watt diodes at 1.5 watts to each diode do I market these lights as the same thing (a 150w panel)? Clearly one greatly differs from the other and they both cost different amounts of money to produce and have totally different lifespans. This is why it doesn't bother me that panels are sold as a different amount of wattage then they actually put out, there is more going on here and I have more diodes giving more coverage then the other.
I guess what I'm getting at is that people need to accept the standard of how these panels are labeled and marketed and you know the real answer anyway because your not stoopid and invested time in research right? Everyone knows what every panel actually pulls in wattage, If the manufacturer doesn't list actual wattage the answer is just a Google away so accept that and stop crying about it.
This rant is just for the whiners who don't understand marketing and business in general.
Bad Karma
Well-Known Member
Way to argue with something I posted months ago, glad your avatar is right on the pulse of this thread.I think most can agree that buying LED's that list the watts of the diodes combined rather then what they actualy run at is now the standard. There are arguments from both manufacturers and consumers about this practice but anyone buying these lights know what the actual wattage is before they purchase, lets face it...this is a nitch market right now and anyone who is interested in LED's is going out of there way to do their homework before a purchase.
I'm able to look at it both ways with an open mind and understand that from a marketing standpoint it makes sense to use total LED possible wattage because 300w sounds a lot more attractive then 180 but more importantly I imagine there might be a bigger reason why not using actual wattage makes sense:
If I was selling 2 LED panels and 1 panel was using 50 - 3 watt diodes running each diode at 3 watts and another that is using 150 - 3 watt diodes at 1.5 watts to each diode do I market these lights as the same thing (a 150w panel)? Clearly one greatly differs from the other and they both cost different amounts of money to produce and have totally different lifespans. This is why it doesn't bother me that panels are sold as a different amount of wattage then they actually put out, there is more going on here and I have more diodes giving more coverage then the other.
I guess what I'm getting at is that people need to accept the standard of how these panels are labeled and marketed and you know the real answer anyway because your not stoopid and invested time in research right? Everyone knows what every panel actually pulls in wattage, If the manufacturer doesn't list actual wattage the answer is just a Google away so accept that and stop crying about it.
This rant is just for the whiners who don't understand marketing and business in general.
You've had all that time, and this is the best argument you could conjure up, really?
I'm glad the "industry standard" you talk about doesn't apply to companies the likes of Spectra, ProSource, and Hydroponics Hut.
Your "fuck the customer if they're not educated enough to know any better" attitude is going to win you lots of friends in life, keep it up.
BlackMesa
Active Member
I wasn't responding to anything you wrote directly so at ease soldier... This is now a standard because the majority of LED panel sellers are selling this way, you can shake your angry fist in the air all you want but it will not change this. I don't sell LED panels and have no attitude, that's why I have that fun little wink smiley at the end of my post.
Hey look what I found below....trippy!
"The new Spectra LED 300w uses 160 high powered 3w chips and draws 290w of power." Directly from there website, word for word...
"Pro Grow 260 Product Specifications:
Dimensions: 15" long x 8.25" wide x 3' deep
Power Consumption: 170w (full illumination) All their panels have mismatched wattage...
Now I couldn't find wattage dirt on Pro Source but this statement from their website is funny: "The Yield.....This is pretty much what it's all about right? Well the output of our 350W Pro-Series Grow Light is equivalent to a 1000W HID". No homework or research required here because that's the honest to god truth.
On a last note, I think anyone who doesn't research what they buy are indeed an idiot!
Bad Karma
Well-Known Member
You're not responding to anything I wrote directly, but nothing else posted recently made any mention of misleading wattage except for my old quote.I wasn't responding to anything you wrote directly so at ease soldier... This is now a standard because the majority of LED panel sellers are selling this way, you can shake your angry fist in the air all you want but it will not change this. I don't sell LED panels and have no attitude, that's why I have that fun little wink smiley at the end of my post.
Hey look what I found below....trippy!
"The new Spectra LED 300w uses 160 high powered 3w chips and draws 290w of power." Directly from there website, word for word...
"Pro Grow 260 Product Specifications:
Dimensions: 15" long x 8.25" wide x 3' deep
Power Consumption: 170w (full illumination) All their panels have mismatched wattage...
Now I couldn't find wattage dirt on Pro Source but this statement from their website is funny: "The Yield.....This is pretty much what it's all about right? Well the output of our 350W Pro-Series Grow Light is equivalent to a 1000W HID". No homework or research required here because that's the honest to god truth.
Swing and a miss...
Now if you'd done your beloved research you'd know that the Spectra website is out of date, as made public many times by Mike the owner, in this thread even.
But let's use your flawed example, complaining that an advertised 300W light only pulls 290W in actuality.
Now let's compare against an "industry standard" like a Blackstar 240W that only pulls 140W in actuality.
A 10W difference and a 100W difference, hmmmmm.
If my 16 ounce Snapple Iced Tea is only filled with 15.5 ounces of refreshment, I wouldn't notice the difference and drink it down
If my 16 ounce Snapple Iced Tea is only filled with 10 ounces of refreshment, I'm going to notice that and would leave it on the shelf.
Hydroponics Hut Pro-Grow 260 is never once referred to as a 260W light on their website (260 is the model #), and like you said, they list it at an honest 170W.
As for ProSource, I own 6 of their 180W Jumbo Illuminators (which their website claims is equivalent to a 600W HID).
I have 4 hanging in my 4x4 flowering tent, one over each large plant.
Those plants end up looking like they were grown under a 400 to 600 watt HID light by harvest.
Pics or it didn't happen you say?
Sour Grapes at 6 weeks in (CFL's pictured were for photo lighting only).
BlackMesa
Active Member
I don't care....really! You can latch onto your 3 company's and never have to turn anywhere else ever! It doesn't matter to me in the slightest. A company can sell a panel using watts based on diode's if it wants to, It at least has bearings and the number is meaningful. Now say the wattage number used to sell the panel was just some random number that had no meaning...well now that's deception and a scam. Just about all of the scammer panels that you hate so much list the actual ouput wattage or will tell you straight out if you call and ask them but realize the number of watts on that model number actually pertains to the diodes on the panel.You're not responding to anything I wrote directly, but nothing else posted recently made any mention of misleading wattage except for my old quote.
Swing and a miss...
Now if you'd done your beloved research you'd know that the Spectra website is out of date, as made public many times by Mike the owner, in this thread even.
But let's use your flawed example, complaining that an advertised 300W light only pulls 290W in actuality.
Now let's compare against an "industry standard" like a Blackstar 240W that only pulls 140W in actuality.
A 10W difference and a 100W difference, hmmmmm.
If my 16 ounce Snapple Iced Tea is only filled with 15.5 ounces of refreshment, I wouldn't notice the difference and drink it down
If my 16 ounce Snapple Iced Tea is only filled with 10 ounces of refreshment, I'm going to notice that and would leave it on the shelf.
Hydroponics Hut Pro-Grow 260 is never once referred to as a 260W light on their website (260 is the model #), and like you said, they list it at an honest 170W.
As for ProSource, I own 6 of their 180W Jumbo Illuminators (which their website claims is equivalent to a 600W HID).
I have 4 hanging in my 4x4 flowering tent, one over each large plant.
Those plants end up looking like they were grown under a 400 to 600 watt HID light by harvest.
Pics or it didn't happen you say?
Sour Grapes at 6 weeks in (CFL's pictured were for photo lighting only).
Most if not all LED makers can't run a 3 watt LED at 3 watts but they have the right to use the title "3w diode" in there reasoning to name the panel. I feel like I'm repeating myself. No matter what at the end of the day nothing you can say or do will have an impact on companies using wattage figures the way they do. Does reading the lights description where it states actual wattage or just asking them on the phone hurt your feelings that bad? It doesn't matter....The info is there, just take the whooping 5 seconds to find it rather then depending on it to be included in the model name.
I'm tired now, so thanks for that....off to bed!
Illumination
New Member
leds suck....period
Bad Karma
Well-Known Member
Wow, you get tired from not making sense?
Anybody else reading this notice how I answer his questions and allegations, then he changes the argument in his next post and never actually responds to what I've stated?
It's a genius strategy really, one made famous by George W. Bush, so you're in good company there buddy.