LED vs. HID Double Ended Bulb

Here ya go, RIU! Won't be long now...

1) Eco Air Plus II Air Pump

1) Air Hose with T Fitting

1) Dome & Tray

2) 12 Compartment Insert

1) 25 Count Bag of Rapid Rooter Plugs

1) GH pH Tester Kit

1) Back Heating Pad

1) Root Cloning Gel

And, of course the babies:

6 Reg Animal Cookies

2 Fem Critical Cheese

Gotta finish the room now, quick-like...

And, prob going with @SupraSPL for a pimped out LED if I can swerve it if anyone was wondering! Thanks to all of you for helping make an informed decision, which is what all this is about, right?

Wanted to share this with all of you helping me on lighting. It's not related to this thread, but I think everyone should know about free samples!

My samples from House & Garden are in. They hooked up Aqua A & B & all the additives, except "Magic Green." No worries, though! I was going to use a different Foliar anyway this run. I've heard there are better foliars out there so any suggestions is appreciated. H & G were really timely & all I had to do was fill out a card & pay for shipping.

HPS emitts also heat in rays, directly heating the canopy. While a heater would just heat the air, as mostly would the led panel..

Somebody isn't too bright and I'm not referring to Sativied.

Just for thought....
1w=3.412BTU's regardless of source type or efficiency of that source. Eventually every photon is covered to heat.

I ran my A51 light (and others, up to 300w) through winter, had to hook a 500w heater /thermastat in there and it ran most of the time. Tried it with a 50w greenhouse heater which worked well in a small veg box but not the 4x7' room. Always a trade off then between heat and ventilation. I'd say if not for the other attributes of LED, HPS bloom probably is more efficient for cold grow rooms than LED plus heat.. either more or equally so (given the light=energy thing).

My 50w heater does raise the temp around 5 (c) above ambient in my little cabinet, probably enough for such small cabinets.. where HPS would be just hot enough to be unusable, especially in summer.

anyhow.. interesting, not in either camp, while I agree (from some minor experience) HPS makes a good heater lol, tis the bud that matters!

I agree, if your room is that cold the HPS can be a good choice BUT what to do during lights off? Insulation might be a cheaper way to go.

I have grown (with LED) in a few different uninsulated attic spaces with winter temps occasionally as low as -20F outside. The solution was to use insulated mylar/foam panels and to control the ventilation (slow it down). I did use a small heater during lights out but that was unfortunate waste. Would have been nice to set up a flip flop system to the room with lights on can heat the room with lights off.

The hateful language is disappointing. Lets just share ideas and grow buds on the same team.

HottyToddy said:

Wanted to share this with all of you helping me on lighting. It's not related to this thread, but I think everyone should know about free samples!

My samples from House & Garden are in. They hooked up Aqua A & B & all the additives, except "Magic Green." No worries, though! I was going to use a different Foliar anyway this run. I've heard there are better foliars out there so any suggestions is appreciated. H & G were really timely & all I had to do was fill out a card & pay for shipping. View attachment 3243471

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Great line of nutes, geat results, just too expensive if your doing a big grow IMO. Floralicious Plus is the best foliar I've ever used! I use that stuff with every feed as well. One of the only additives I really like, but only for DTW applications

SupraSPL said:

I agree, if your room is that cold the HPS can be a good choice BUT what to do during lights off?

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How is that even an argument... during lights off there's no photosynthesis, the main reason to keep the temp at an optimal range. Comparing types of light... but then you turn HPS off. And of course I insulate my closet, that neither is somehow an argument.

Slowing the ventilation down during the colder period would be similar to throwing a bucket of water over my plants... a bad idea. It also assumes overcapacity or implies a huge undervaluation of proper ventilation. It's not that different from suggesting to turn the light down as a solution. Same goes for heating one room with the other, good recipe for bud rot and pm. I need the exhaust to extract the humidity, not attract it from another closet.

How about something like the opposite of a cooltube, i.e. a warmtube. Does a LED (e.g. replacement for 600watt) provide enough heat at the top to possibly warm up the intake air? Ducting from intake to top of LED device with ducting back down to the bottom where it's released in the closet and sucked upwards by the exhaust. Sounds feasible or too far-fetched?

SupraSPL said:

The hateful language is disappointing. Lets just share ideas and grow buds on the same team.

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I kind of agree with that, comes with the territory somehow, but what's way more disappointing, is the lack of valid and realistic arguments and unbiased LED users to discuss it with.

Sativied said:

How is that even an argument... during lights off there's no photosynthesis, the main reason to keep the temp at an optimal range. Comparing types of light... but then you turn HPS off. And of course I insulate my closet, that neither is somehow an argument.

Slowing the ventilation down during the colder period would be similar to throwing a bucket of water over my plants... a bad idea. It also assumes overcapacity or implies a huge undervaluation of proper ventilation. It's not that different from suggesting to turn the light down as a solution. Same goes for heating one room with the other, good recipe for bud rot and pm. I need the exhaust to extract the humidity, not attract it from another closet.

How about something like the opposite of a cooltube, i.e. a warmtube. Does a LED (e.g. replacement for 600watt) provide enough heat at the top to possibly warm up the intake air? Ducting from intake to top of LED device with ducting back down to the bottom where it's released in the closet and sucked upwards by the exhaust. Sounds feasible or too far-fetched?

I kind of agree with that, comes with the territory somehow, but what's way more disappointing, is the lack of valid and realistic arguments and unbiased LED users to discuss it with.

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Temperature fluctuations is a VALID argument...........you've been around (supposedly ) pro dutch rooms, they run heating during lights off to combat this..................... Nothing new

PSUAGRO. said:

Temperature fluctuations is a VALID argument...........you've been around (supposedly ) pro dutch rooms, they run heating during lights off to combat this..................... Nothing new

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Speaking of greenhouses ....

Economic Analysis of Greenhouse Lighting:
Light Emitting Diodes vs. High Intensity Discharge Fixtures

• Jacob A. Nelson,
• Bruce Bugbee mail

• Published: June 06, 2014

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0099010

http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/poster/pub__2344810.pdf


Edit: Please ,keep in mind ,that modern D.I.Y Solid State Chip-On-board Light modules/arrays ,
are -or at least can easily be- far more superior than any branded LED fixture.


And that's 'cause : " Over the past 30 years, numerous longer-term studies with whole plants in higher light indicate that light quality has a much smaller effect on plant growth rate than light quantity . Light quality, especially the fraction of blue light, has been shown to alter cell expansion rate(=>phototropism) , leaf expansion rate, plant height and plant shape in several species , but it has only a small direct effect on photosynthesis.
....
The effects of light quality on fresh or dry mass in whole plants typically occur under low or no sunlight conditions, and are caused by changes in leaf expansion and radiation capture during early growth ."


( Alas ...Blue wls are needed in min doses and only at "start" .PERIOD!
At last .... )


- " But hey ....Blue diodes are the most efficient ..."
.....
- "That's another reason why COBS kick-@$$ ,dummy ! "
.....


And of course ,COBs are far-far superior than any HPS ,which BTW their REAL operating radiometric efficiency ,regarding the 380-780 nm range,is less than 30 % .
And the more they get used the more keeps going lower in a rather "steep" way ...

That's pretty much how I set up my LED bar Sativied. More to recycle the 'heated' air.



Nothing against the HPS years, this is just a more controlled 'pleasant' experience-
still, it was a sad day to drop the ballasts at the tip..

PSUAGRO. said:

Temperature fluctuations is a VALID argument...........

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And again the typical disappointing LED grower response showing you just want to be a LED fanboy rather than have an actual discussion about it.

PSUAGRO. said:

you've been around (supposedly ) pro dutch rooms, they run heating during lights off to combat this..................... Nothing new

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The rooms that do use heating, which unlike you assume is not by default the case at all (switch day and night... room temp during the dark day, optimal photosynth temp during light night...), would have to combat that regardless of type of lighting obviously, making your point anything but valid. How many of those pro grow rooms do you think grow with LED... Google 'hennepkwekerij' and see images results for hundreds of (raided) examples.

Do you LED folks think before you write or just post random thoughts?

HPS grower: I need the heat from the HPS
LED grower: then how do you handle that when the light is off...
HPS grower: what a silly argument
LED grower: yes but temp fluctuations

Downright childish and frankly not even worth dignifying with a reply................................... (just want to show my dots are longer too)......................

..........................................lol

Always found arguing tech choice funny. Their both good.. Just led is better now performance wise. But if on a budget cmh/hps is a good alternative

How about something like the opposite of a cooltube, i.e. a warmtube. Does a LED (e.g. replacement for 600watt) provide enough heat at the top to possibly warm up the intake air?

Click to expand...

I rebuilt my cabinet with the air Intake at the top and exhaust at the bottom I also raised the flower section.
My floor is very cold. This way now during lights out the air isnt that cold anymore and during lights on the temp is about perfect as im also "using" the leds heat that way..
Change was only about a few degrees, but now I dont need additional heat in the basement.

Tazbud said:

That's pretty much how I set up my LED bar Sativied. More to recycle the 'heated' air.

View attachment 3278727

Nothing against the HPS years, this is just a more controlled 'pleasant' experience-
still, it was a sad day to drop the ballasts at the tip..

Click to expand...

Looks good but how to get that recycled heat to actually spread out through the tent rather than extracting it as would occur in a typical setup. What's the temp you suck in and what's the temp above the LED? I'm going to replace a small T8 veg box with LED sooner or later. Will have to replace my HPS eventually. By reducing the electricity in my home I saved more than I could with growing with LED, so much in fact I now use more for growing than living...

lax123 said:

I rebuilt my cabinet with the air Intake at the top and exhaust at the bottom.

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Exactly why I asked, that could be a simple solution. How large was your cabinet, what are the temps now? Across the cabinet, as at different heights please.

Positivity said:

But if on a budget cmh/hps is a good alternative

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Yeah... before someone mentions the AT600.

Positivity said:

Always found arguing tech choice funny. Their both good..

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That the thing right there, it's nearly impossible to reach a consensus even on that last statement. They "can" both be good. Once you start pointing out some of the downsides of LED (or worse show that some of the claimed upsides are in practice downsides) or worse, advantages of HPS it's like it's automatically an insult to LED growers and they start acting a little bitchy. Case in point:

Tazbud said:

Well offhand I think you're a dick and now that I think about it you're a big dick. Who is this ass-clown and do all HPS grower desperately holding on to a dying tech

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SupraSPL said:

The hateful language is disappointing. Lets just share ideas and grow buds on the same team.

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At least I'm not a hypocrite...

I think the big argument now is really about startup cost vs running cost. The main advantage to HPS (and other HID) is obviously low start up cost and predictable results. I do think that as prices come down, the argument will shift in favor of LEDs.

The efficiency of a vero 18 at 3500k (good quality, but a lot cheaper than cree cxa) is on par with HPS, if not slightly better (around 35-40%), and all the light is directed down.

It was easy to avoid the LED bandwagon until I saw cobs.... which were just too cool to resist.... I've completed one LED cob grow now and I can say, these things are fucking cool.

You want my unbiased review of LED vs HPS after one grow? If I had 10kW of HPS, I'd slowly upgrade to cobs as price will inevitably keep falling. It's not something I'd do all in one shot. HPS still has its place, but as prices come down, HPS will probably become teh new CFL. (which i consider totally obsolete now because of cobs!)

The whole heat during the winter argument is a bit silly. Sure, in the winter, you would have needed to produce the same heat with your heater to regulate the temperature, but with a slightly more efficient lamp, you get more versatility. This is sort of moot point anyway, because a good LED is only marginally more efficient than HPS , and like Greengenes said, all photons are ultimately converted into heat anyway, either through directly exciting the leaves/tent, or through the plant burning the sugars it made using the light as energy.

im on my 4th cob grow, and wow!!!

all that money wasted on cheap leds (learned my lesson)

and all that money wasted in electric bills, never again!
thanks supra and led community!

ROLS + COBS= DANKEST HERB U WILL EVER GROW

That theory about light turning into heat in any case apparently isn't solving that issue in practice (and that's not just winter, it's more like not-summer). Heating with natural gas (that's how we heat greenhouses as well as our homes) is a lot more expensive. That silly issue is recognized by for example philips as well (posted link or flyer in a previous discussion).

HPS in combination with a balanced intake-exhaust setup allows for plug and play while with LED it requires additional efforts. I should be able to overcome it one way or the other because I only have a 4x4 closet opposed to an entire room, but I can't simply dismiss the issue as if it doesn't exist.

As with other negative aspects of LED, LED fans tend to turn those negatives into positives. While I applaud such an approach, let's keep it realistic... Although I admit I got the info from LED growers, the claim that LED results in a cooler environment and for example not having to use a cool tube (which I've never even seen in real life... blocks too much heath...) seems to be quite a persistent argument, and that instead of at the canopy, the heat is emitted from the top. Thought that was a typical LED thing. The fact is that's not always desirable.

It's not like people here don't try out LED, growers, as well as grow shops looking forward to cash in on a LED trend, as well as the greenhouses with tens of thousands 1k Gavitas... (I do see a trend in LED as supplemental light).

Yes, startup cost is still a big argument, in fact, if LED were truly that much better, the prices of professional complete setups would be much lower already. We'd be all over it... I get that it's fun to hobby with COBs and some get fine results but frankly I can't take those threads serious when it comes to HPS vs LED.

churchhaze said:

I do think that as prices come down, the argument will shift in favor of LEDs.

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Yes, "LED is the future".