Let's Debate

What is faith but a word we use when we can't explain an aspect of god or the beliefs? If we don't understand god, then ours is not to know the mind of god. If we can't understand why god allows kittens to die, we are to simply trust in his plan. When we hit a logical wall while contemplating god, we are given faith as an out. All these things are teaching us to accept ignorance as a position. Faith is believing in something when there is no good reason to. Faith is being satisfied with not knowing. When you cite faith as your reason for believing in god, you are really citing your lack of reasons and saying it's okay anyway. That really doesn't help anyone but yourself.

In short, faith stops us from asking questions without providing any answers; an appeal to ignorance. Does this seem like a valid way of reaching the truth?

Heisenberg said:

What is faith but a word we use when we can't explain an aspect of god or the beliefs? If we don't understand god, then ours is not to know the mind of god. If we can't understand why god allows kittens to die, we are to simply trust in his plan. When we hit a logical wall while contemplating god, we are given faith as an out. All these things are teaching us to accept ignorance as a position. Faith is believing in something when there is no good reason to. Things with good reasons do not require faith. When you cite faith as your reason for believing in god, you are really citing your lack of reasons and saying it's okay anyway. That really doesn't help anyone but yourself.

In short, faith stops us from asking questions without providing any answers. It is nothing more than an appeal to ignorance. Does this seem like a valid way of reaching the truth?

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While sometimes faith is used in this way, that's not the actual purpose of faith. It's not a magical concept that means to believe regardless of the evidence. True faith is trusting that your god or gods will make certain that everything will happen as it should. Faith is better described as trust in your deity rather than belief in something in spite of contrary evidence.

Well put Heisenberg, I had the very same point of view of faith. I really got fed up at one point and just said if you there God show me. I have actually come to my conclusion rather recently. (On a side note i would like to give you credit and a couple of other RIU members for testing my faith, you made me ask myself a lot of good questions about what i believe) I wont go on in detail unless you would like me too on another thread, but in a nut shell there are far too many recent events happening that concur and run parallel with prophecy with scripture. Im not trying to sound like a nut case but these events are occurring are real world facts and it would be a HUGE coincidence (IMO) that so much of it has been predicted and is occuring in our generation.

This i feel is the way the Lord has "spoken" to me.

However in the end i guess we will know one way or the other, but hey if im wrong then hey im wrong but i dont believe that i am.

But yeah did i mention your my second favorite atheist

karri0n said:

While sometimes faith is used in this way, that's not the actual purpose of faith. It's not a magical concept that means to believe egrdless of the evience. True faith is trusting that your god or gods will make certain that everything will happen as it should. Faith is better described as trust in your deity rather than belief in something in spite of contrary evidence.

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Karrion you just described how i feel about faith.

Well im gona go finish up here at work, ill hop on later when i get home to continue discussion if you would like or if you want me to start a new thread i can, dont want to take this one from the angry one.

Stay sexy RIU.

karri0n said:

While sometimes faith is used in this way, that's not the actual purpose of faith. It's not a magical concept that means to believe egrdless of the evience. True faith is trusting that your god or gods will make certain that everything will happen as it should. Faith is better described as trust in your deity rather than belief in something in spite of contrary evidence.

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If we trust in a deity because of good reasons, we say "I trust for these reasons". If we can't explain our reasons or simply have none, we say "I trust because I have faith". Obviously trust is involved, but faith is the reason behind that trust. Faith does not need contrary evidence to exist, it simply needs the lack of answers.

True faith is trusting that your god or gods will make certain that everything will happen as it should

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And what about when things don't happen as they should? When it seems by our understanding that things are not as they should be, we simply distrust our understanding and cite faith as a reason for doing so.

txhazard said:

Well im gona go finish up here at work, ill hop on later when i get home to continue discussion if you would like or if you want me to start a new thread i can, dont want to take this one from the angry one.

Stay sexy RIU.

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He's asleep- apparently the the anti christ has a bed time. parents said no being creepy on the computer after 9

txhazard said:

Well put Heisenberg, I had the very same point of view of faith. I really got fed up at one point and just said if you there God show me. I have actually come to my conclusion rather recently. (On a side note i would like to give you credit and a couple of other RIU members for testing my faith, you made me ask myself a lot of good questions about what i believe) I wont go on in detail unless you would like me too on another thread, but in a nut shell there are far too many recent events happening that concur and run parallel with prophecy with scripture. Im not trying to sound like a nut case but these events are occurring are real world facts and it would be a HUGE coincidence (IMO) that so much of it has been predicted and is occuring in our generation.

This i feel is the way the Lord has "spoken" to me.

However in the end i guess we will know one way or the other, but hey if im wrong then hey im wrong but i dont believe that i am.

But yeah did i mention your my second favorite atheist

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If you're into end times prophecies and stuff, you might be interested in this one, put forth by the Hopi indian elder named White Feather:


"My people await Pahana, the lost White Brother, [from the stars] as do all our brothers in the land. He will not be like the white men we know now, who are cruel and greedy. we were told of their coming long ago. But still we await Pahana.
"He will bring with him the symbols, and the missing piece of that sacred tablet now kept by the elders, given to him when he left, that shall identify him as our True White Brother.
"The Fourth World shall end soon, and the Fifth World will begin. This the elders everywhere know. The Signs over many years have been fulfilled, and so few are left.

• "This is the First Sign: We are told of the coming of the white-skinned men, like Pahana, but not living like Pahana men who took the land that was not theirs. And men who struck their enemies with thunder.
  "This is the Second Sign: Our lands will see the coming of spinning wheels filled with voices. In his youth, my father saw this prophecy come true with his eyes -- the white men bringing their families in wagons across the prairies."
  "This is the Third Sign: A strange beast like a buffalo but with great long horns, will overrun the land in large numbers. These White Feather saw with his eyes -- the coming of the white men's cattle."
  "This is the Fourth Sign: The land will be crossed by snakes of iron."
  "This is the Fifth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web."
  "This is the Sixth sign: The land shall be criss-crossed with rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun."
  "This is the Seventh Sign: You will hear of the sea turning black, and many living things dying because of it."
  "This is the Eight Sign: You will see many youth, who wear their hair long like my people, come and join the tribal nations, to learn their ways and wisdom.
  "And this is the Ninth and Last Sign: You will hear of a dwelling-place in the heavens, above the earth, that shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star. Very soon after this, the ceremonies of my people will cease.

"These are the Signs that great destruction is coming. The world shall rock to and fro. The white man will battle against other people in other lands -- with those who possessed the first light of wisdom. There will be many columns of smoke and fire such as White Feather has seen the white man make in the deserts not far from here. Only those which come will cause disease and a great dying.
"Many of my people, understanding the prophecies, shall be safe. Those who stay and live in the places of my people also shall be safe. Then there will be much to rebuild. And soon -- very soon afterward -- Pahana will return. He shall bring with him the dawn of the Fifth World. He shall plant the seeds of his wisdom in their hearts. Even now the seeds are being planted. These shall smooth the way to the Emergence into the Fifth World.

I have heard that and it is true, more proof- Thanks for posting it. what year was that from? what happened to him?

txhazard said:

Well put Heisenberg, I had the very same point of view of faith. I really got fed up at one point and just said if you there God show me. I have actually come to my conclusion rather recently. (On a side note i would like to give you credit and a couple of other RIU members for testing my faith, you made me ask myself a lot of good questions about what i believe) I wont go on in detail unless you would like me too on another thread, but in a nut shell there are far too many recent events happening that concur and run parallel with prophecy with scripture. Im not trying to sound like a nut case but these events are occurring are real world facts and it would be a HUGE coincidence (IMO) that so much of it has been predicted and is occuring in our generation.

This i feel is the way the Lord has "spoken" to me.

However in the end i guess we will know one way or the other, but hey if im wrong then hey im wrong but i dont believe that i am.

But yeah did i mention your my second favorite atheist

Click to expand...

Ha, well if you follow my opinion then you are probably aware of what I am going to say. Without getting into self-fulfilling interpretation and confirmation bias, and while quickly pointing out that you can examine just about any point in history and find prophetic signs, I would cite Occam's razor and ask why, when a 'huge coincidence' is within the possibility of natural occurrence, do you favor a supernatural explanation? It seems you are saying, I can't personally understand how these things could coincide, so it must be divine.

My favorite Athiest is Jesus, a Mexican friend I used to work with.

Heisenberg said:

If we trust in a deity because of good reasons, we say "I trust for these reasons". If we can't explain our reasons or simply have none, we say "I trust because I have faith". Obviously trust is involved, but faith is the reason behind that trust. Faith does not need contrary evidence to exist, it simply needs the lack of answers.

And what about when things don't happen as they should? When it seems by our understanding that things are not as they should be, we simply distrust our understanding and cite faith as a reason for doing so.

Click to expand...

I understand your angle Heisenberg.

faith   
[feyth] Show IPA
–noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. I trust in the Lord because of reason, the reason i believe is based in fact. Events that I previously mentioned which I consider fact.

2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. This is the vector your coming at correct?

3.
belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

Why do I gots to be evil Beardo?

txhazard said:

Why do I gots to be evil Beardo?

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Not you the O.P. who stated he had to go to bed a few pages ago a couple posts before he quit-

Heisenberg said:

Ha, well if you follow my opinion then you are probably aware of what I am going to say. Without getting into self-fulfilling interpretation and confirmation bias, and while quickly pointing out that you can examine just about any point in history and find prophetic signs, I would cite Occam's razor and ask why, when a 'huge coincidence' is within the possibility of natural occurrence, do you favor a supernatural explanation? It seems you are saying, I can't personally understand how these things could coincide, so it must be divine.

My favorite Athiest is Jesus, a Mexican friend I used to work with.

Click to expand...

Ive yet to see anything supernatural. Super Natural is suppose to kick off with the rapture when ever that happens. I do not favor supernatural signs cause i have yet to see anything, i want fact and i feel I have seen fact. Im just calling it like i see it.

beardo said:

Not you the O.P. who stated he had to go to bed a few pages ago a couple posts before he quit-

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I was just joshing ya.

Heisenberg said:

If we trust in a deity because of good reasons, we say "I trust for these reasons". If we can't explain our reasons or simply have none, we say "I trust because I have faith". Obviously trust is involved, but faith is the reason behind that trust. Faith does not need contrary evidence to exist, it simply needs the lack of answers.

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Who is this we?

Religion, spirituality, and faith can be very advanced subjects. The people who use faith in this way are misunderstanding the purpose. Yes, it is a lot of people, and yes, it is quite a lot of people that don't quite "get it" when it comes to their own religion. Even Jesus mentions several times that in his era people didn't get it no matter how many times he told them. If people who spoke to the man directly and could ask him questions about it can't get it, why would people 2000 years later, who have a politically corrupt, heavily modified, composited version of his teachings be any different?

Heisenberg said:

And what about when things don't happen as they should? When it seems by our understanding that things are not as they should be, we simply distrust our understanding and cite faith as a reason for doing so.

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Can you give an example? If it's injustice you speak of, someone who has put their faith into their deity will understand that what they are perceiving as injustice was something that was meant to happen, even if they cannot understand why. Still others prefer to maintain control over their own destiny, rather than surrendering their every choice and action to their god's whim.

The school of thought that I was initially trained in has a bit of both of these. For the most part, one should write their own destiny and shape their future in the direction they want to go. However, in times of need, there is no shame in using specific prayers or rituals to put themselves into their gods hands, and let their life be steered in he direction deity has cosen for them. I this way, The gods are seen as "mom an dad" figures - they are there for you when you need them most, but under most circumstances, you should be handling your own shit and not crying for help.

txhazard said:

I understand your angle Heisenberg.

faith   
[feyth] Show IPA
–noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. I trust in the Lord because of reason, the reason i believe is based in fact. Events that I previously mentioned which I consider fact.

2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. This is the vector your coming at correct?

3.
belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

Why do I gots to be evil Beardo?

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So then you were saying,

Honestly my beliefs boil down to confidence in my Lord, there is more to it than that but in its primal capacity it is confidence.

Okay but this doesn't help explain anything to anyone. You say your confidence comes from facts, I would think that those facts would be the important thing to mention, rather then the level of confidence in them. When trying to accept another's beliefs I am not reassured solely by the fact that they believe really hard. When we explain our belief in gravity it boils down to replicable results and predictable observations, not simply our confidence in the facts.

txhazard said:

Ive yet to see anything supernatural. Super Natural is suppose to kick off with the rapture when ever that happens. I do not favor supernatural signs cause i have yet to see anything, i want fact and i feel I have seen fact. Im just calling it like i see it.

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I suppose I was assuming your version of god is a divine being, I apologize. Is it?

Heisenberg said:

I suppose I was assuming your version of god is a divine being, I apologize. Is it?

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I think he was just saying he doesn't consider prophecy to be supernatural.

Well I am not trying to explain the facts atm, I am simply inferring that my faith/reasoning is based on facts.

I really would like to get down to the nitty gritty of what im talking about but it would potentially be a really long discussion and at the moment I am short on time. At the risk of sounding hypocritical/flaky, may, have a rain check? I would love to continue this conversation as this discussion has been very enjoyable to me. Say tomorrow?

Ill just start a thread or something and we can continue down that line of conversation if your really interested in what I am talking about.

karri0n said:

I think he was just saying he doesn't consider prophecy to be supernatural.

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Yes sir you are correct. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit and all that neat jazz.

i consider my self to be a Christian (Protestant no denomination) not a Catholic which there is a difference.