Let's Debate

karri0n · Jul 22, 2011

txhazard said:
Well I am not trying to explain the facts atm, I am simply inferring that my faith/reasoning is based on facts.

I really would like to get down to the nitty gritty of what im talking about but it would potentially be a really long discussion and at the moment I am short on time. At the risk of sounding hypocritical/flaky, may, have a rain check? I would love to continue this conversation as this discussion has been very enjoyable to me. Say tomorrow?

Ill just start a thread or something and we can continue down that line of conversation if your really interested in what I am talking about.

I'll be there bro. :bigjoint:

txhazard · Jul 22, 2011

Looking forward to it.

VILEPLUME · Jul 23, 2011

Has anyone seen the movie Equilibrium?

gfreeman · Jul 23, 2011

is that that movie where that fool can shoot everyone in the room with some funky dancin.?

VILEPLUME · Jul 23, 2011

gfreeman said:
is that that movie where that fool can shoot everyone in the room with some funky dancin.?

From the movie

"In a Fascist future where all forms of feeling are illegal, a man in charge of enforcing the law rises to overthrow the system."

A fight for free will.

Farfenugen · Jul 23, 2011

They won't debate because 90% of the Christians think MJ is a devil weed

txhazard · Jul 23, 2011

VILEPLUME said:
Has anyone seen the movie Equilibrium?

Great movie.

Hey Heisenberg ill continue this convo at a later time, Im not gona have a lazy night at work tonight i have 13 work orders -_-.

Heisenberg · Jul 23, 2011

karri0n said:
Who is this we?

I was using the term as a tool of expression. 'We' is referring to humans, and of course not meant to be a blanket statement.

Religion, spirituality, and faith can be very advanced subjects. The people who use faith in this way are misunderstanding the purpose. Yes, it is a lot of people, and yes, it is quite a lot of people that don't quite "get it" when it comes to their own religion. Even Jesus mentions several times that in his era people didn't get it no matter how many times he told them. If people who spoke to the man directly and could ask him questions about it can't get it, why would people 2000 years later, who have a politically corrupt, heavily modified, composited version of his teachings be any different?

I only explained why I consider faith to be a poor justification for a belief. When someone says "my beliefs boil down to faith", they are speaking in the context of why they believe something. They are not speaking of a quality of worship. If faith is being misused then your point should be the same as mine, these people are in error.

Can you give an example? If it's injustice you speak of, someone who has put their faith into their deity will understand that what they are perceiving as injustice was something that was meant to happen, even if they cannot understand why. Still others prefer to maintain control over their own destiny, rather than surrendering their every choice and action to their god's whim.

This seems to be my point. If anything that happens is meant to happen, how are we to ever distinguish between things that are wrong and right? If god gets credit for things like a baby being born healthy, then why does he not get blamed when the baby's lungs don't work? It would seem to have faith one must sacrifice objectivity, which again seems to be a poor way to reach the truth.

The school of thought that I was initially trained in has a bit of both of these. For the most part, one should write their own destiny and shape their future in the direction they want to go. However, in times of need, there is no shame in using specific prayers or rituals to put themselves into their gods hands, and let their life be steered in he direction deity has cosen for them. I this way, The gods are seen as "mom an dad" figures - they are there for you when you need them most, but under most circumstances, you should be handling your own shit and not crying for help.

.
This is all predicated on god's existence. It seems to be saying that we should trust human reasoning and ability until it fails, at which time we should abandon it for the sake of supernatural support. The same supernatural being that designed reality to be such that our abilities and reasoning fail.

karri0n · Jul 23, 2011

Heisenberg said:
I was using the term as a tool of expression. 'We' is referring to humans, and of course not meant to be a blanket statement.

Fair enough - I was saying that to reinforce the point that you see below and to assert that not all people of faith use it in this way.

Heisenberg said:
I only explained why I consider faith to be a poor justification for a belief. When someone says "my beliefs boil down to faith", they are speaking in the context of why they believe something. They are not speaking of a quality of worship. If faith is being misused then your point should be the same as mine, these people are in error.

I agree.

Heisenberg said:
This seems to be my point. If anything that happens is meant to happen, how are we to ever distinguish between things that are wrong and right? If god gets credit for things like a baby being born healthy, then why does he not get blamed when the baby's lungs don't work? It would seem to have faith one must sacrifice objectivity, which again seems to be a poor way to reach the truth.

If this baby was not born healthy, then that's what was fated to happen. In a monotheistic sense, if God is the one who determines each and every person's destiny, then yes, it was part of his plan(or "his fault" if you will) that this baby didn't make it. From a polytheistic standpoint, however, one could pray or make sacrament to Frigg, the Norse goddess of pregnancy and childbirth for a healthy child. However, if this was not the fate that the Norns, the weavers of fate, set for this child, Frigg would not have the ability to change it.

I'm not sure where objectivity has been lost, can you elaborate?

Heisenberg said:
.
This is all predicated on god's existence.

Which is fine as long as we aren't using faith alone as our "evidence".

Heisenberg said:
It seems to be saying that we should trust human reasoning and ability until it fails, at which time we should abandon it for the sake of supernatural support. The same supernatural being that designed reality to be such that our abilities and reasoning fail.

I was referring more to when we feel that the stress of life has reached a point that we feel we have reached a breaking point. I wouldn't abandon my own abilities and reasoning faculties just because I placed my destiny into my god's hands. Depending on your god, abandoning your own critical thinking skills after taking this action could be anything from frowned upon by your god, to utter folly.

Chocolate Thia · Jul 24, 2011

Funny. I'm thinking of the wars we had and wondering what part of the fight could have been prevented by us all declaring our selves atheist.....

No, nothing gonna change if we were all atheist. Still would have fought the wars....

Hmm. I guess being an atheist doesn't change much killing after all... But continue the nonsense. Because certainly you have a point. It's the hat your wearing....

Heisenberg · Jul 28, 2011

Chocolate Thia said:
Funny. I'm thinking of the wars we had and wondering what part of the fight could have been prevented by us all declaring our selves atheist.....

No, nothing gonna change if we were all atheist. Still would have fought the wars....

Hmm. I guess being an atheist doesn't change much killing after all... But continue the nonsense. Because certainly you have a point. It's the hat your wearing....

Advances in medicine and agriculture have saved vastly more lives than have been lost in all the wars in history.

Carl Sagan

karri0n · Jul 29, 2011

Heisenberg said:
Advances in medicine and agriculture have saved vastly more lives than have been lost in all the wars in history.

— Carl Sagan

Both of which were mostly developed by the nation of Islam...

regardless....

At what cost? These "Advances" in agriculture have caused massive ecological trauma on a global scale, possibly irreversibly within a forseeable timeframe.

As far as medical advances, most of the benefit is due to improved hygiene and sanitation, and not due to pharmaceuticals. There is quite a bit of evidence that many pharmaceuticals have caused more harm than good(with the exception of some antibiotics). We do have more precise instruments and some better forms of testing, but at its core ,modern medicine, with its continued focus on amputation and the removal of organs, is just as barbaric as it was in the middle ages, albeit with better hygiene. Chemotherapy is arguably more barbaric than some of the medicine in times past.

ThE sAtIvA hIgH · Jul 29, 2011

why cant any of you prove your god exists ? it should be simple ? why do so many different cultures believe in so many different gods ,if there is only one god ?

ThE sAtIvA hIgH · Jul 29, 2011

lets get back to the original debate ..............prove that your god exists it should be simple .

ThE sAtIvA hIgH · Jul 29, 2011

well that depends on wether it matters to him if his beliefs are true and real if it dosent matter to him wether they are true and real he might aswell worship my toe nail .

ThE sAtIvA hIgH · Jul 29, 2011

how can anyone devote there lives to something they cant prove to themselves or anyone else even exists ?

ThE sAtIvA hIgH · Jul 29, 2011

all the arguments religious people use , can be used for anything , i could say i believe in the 3 headed gobbly goop god , and then go on and use all your arguments , to try to convince people its real . now if you said you worshipped the sun , you could easily prove that there is a sun and it would be alot more credibal .i cant undestand why everything else that is real can be proven yet when it comes down to GODS we have to have faith lol i smell serious amounts of BULLSHIT .

ThE sAtIvA hIgH · Jul 29, 2011

i could make up a word like , spirit , and then give it a simillair meaning , but it dosent make it real , you have to prove something is real and true and if it is reral and true then its easy to prove it .

ThE sAtIvA hIgH · Jul 29, 2011

hmmmmmmmmmmm hmmmmmmmmmmm im smoking purple kush again it smells better than fanny .

Farfenugen · Jul 29, 2011

I am my own god, unto myself and not some dinky religion
it's too bad that religious fanaticism has influenced so many politicians, so much so that everything we do is
either ungodly or unpatriotic
look at the middle east and the nutlims

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