Magnesium and Potassium Lockout due to too much Calcium?

RookieMuffin

Well-Known Member

This is the link for the european version! This is what I use. And this states to use 0.1-0.5ml per LITRE! so the same thing as my bottle says!

The other link looks like the USA Version. I DON'T have the USA version I have the EUROPE version.
 

Swarog

Member
You read that wrong again! I was using 0.8ml PER LITRE and later I was using 1.0ml PER LITRE!! So thats about 3.8ml PER GALLON!!

And the directions in the internet is not what is stated on MY BOTTLE. Maybe my bottle is a older version or it's the EU verion not the US verion or whatever.

AS I told you. I quote it again "ON MY BOTTLE it says to use 0.1 - 0.5ml/L until EC 0.45 is reached. And I need 0.8ml to reach 0.45 EC... And when I still got deficiencies I started using 1ml and 0.58EC."

Again its ml PER LITRE not PER GALLON

The link was only provided so people can get a look at the manufacturer and see its not calimagic and so on.
1675298897762.png
 

RookieMuffin

Well-Known Member
Thats a typo sorry! Maybe it was to much back and forth and I switched things up too because of too much gallon/litre misunderstanding between us! Sorry it was 0.8ml per LITRE... in the next sentence I even say I've used 1.0ml per litre This was not a typo... The 0.8ml per gallon was wrong it was per litre! So I made a mistake there sorry! Will edit that!
 

RookieMuffin

Well-Known Member
Talkin in EC is better than talkin in ml per litre or gallon... Not as much confusion lol!

Again the highest I had was 0.58 EC just Cal/Mag... That's A LOT! And still got deficiencies going on... So that's why I started to panic and didn't know what to do.
 

Swarog

Member
Thats a typo sorry! Maybe it was to much back and forth and I switched things up too because of too much gallon/litre misunderstanding between us! Sorry it was 0.8ml per LITRE... in the next sentence I even say I've used 1.0ml per litre This was not a typo... The 0.8ml per gallon was wrong it was per litre! So I made a mistake there sorry! Will edit that!
All good this makes way more sense now, the UK one does say what you are saying! Sorry shits confusing you're right lol. Now my 2 thoughts would first be the UK version is super concentrated, but I can't see the exact percentage breakdown of Calcium/Magnesium on their website.

My 2nd theory/thought is the instruction/design are for balancing your water, because the instruction talk about buffering and using it to make like a base water to build off of, if that makes any sense. So once you get the EC of 0.4 you would on top of that add all of the nutrients the plants needs which would probably be even more calmag and all your other stuff.

Also this is off the calmag topic but while you can grow with just flora micro and flora bloom I would reccomend also getting the flora grow especially for veg.
 

RookieMuffin

Well-Known Member
All good this makes way more sense now, the UK one does say what you are saying! Sorry shits confusing you're right lol. Now my 2 thoughts would first be the UK version is super concentrated, but I can't see the exact percentage breakdown of Calcium/Magnesium on their website.

My 2nd theory/thought is the instruction/design are for balancing your water, because the instruction talk about buffering and using it to make like a base water to build off of, if that makes any sense. So once you get the EC of 0.4 you would on top of that add all of the nutrients the plants needs which would probably be even more calmag and all your other stuff.

Also this is off the calmag topic but while you can grow with just flora micro and flora bloom I would reccomend also getting the flora grow especially for veg.
I already have the flora grow but I stopped using it long ago because I switched to the lucas formula where you only use flora micro and flora bloom. A lot of people use it this way and it works for them too. That way I even have more calcium and magnesium than using all three bottles.

I also did that. I used it to make my distilled water a base water. I started with distilled water 0.0EC and added Cal/Mag until I was at 0.45 (sometimes less sometimes more) but still I got the deficiencies. Maybe I overdid it or maybe I wasn't using enough base nutrients which made these plants deficient IDK...

Now I'm only using base nutrients and some epsom salt. Will increase all of this over time depending on what my plants tell me and we will see if it works! Hopefully it does!

Yeah maybe the UK Version is more concentrated... idk

I can tell you what my bottle says.

On the front it says "concentrate for buffering of soft water"

and

CA:MG ratio is 4.9/1.4

On the back of the bottle it says

Total nitrogen (N): 5.9%
which consists of Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-N) 5.0% and Uric Nitrogen (Ureum-N) 0.9%

Calcium oxide (CaO) 6.8%
Magnesium oxide (MgO) 2.4%

That's everything thats important the rest is some text and the instructions to use it.

Anyway... I don't use the Cal/Mag anymore right now but I'm a bit lost how much Epsom salt to use and so on... Some people say to don't use at all just base nutes but with only base nutes the deficiencies get worse and so on... It's a kind of trial and error right now until its dialed in...

I think I will need a little more Epsom salt that's it. But I will see.
 

danzibar1

Active Member
I grow DWC hydroponics. First time problems like this. But I've switched to a high power LED light. I've read Calcium/Magnesium is a LED problem they need more... Anyway idk.
Nutes I use is General Hydroponics Tri Part
I use distilled water

My step-by-step of adding nutes is this: I take distilled water. I take bottle 1 of base nutes add them stir wait a little take bottle 2 of base nutes stir wait a little and so on. And then after base nutes are done I add the Epsom Salt.

At first my EC meter wasn't reliable but now I have a better one which is reliable and calibrated and maintained a lot! So the numbers EC now are right.

How much magnesium sulfate: Right now it's 0.75g/gallon because I don't want to overdo it. But later in this text (at the end) there is a better view of how I've used the epsom salt.

I have a 400W LED grow light right now at 12.5% dimmed because I don't want to use too much and the light is a bit oversized for the plant at full strength so I dim it down a lot. (The light is ment for the flower room but right now it's in the veg room). The distance right now is about 16 inches because I rant out of hight but I still think its more of a nutrient deficiency because even the small one which is way smaller so more distance in between the light maybe 30+ inches. And she even started to show signs when she was even further away and light was dimmed to 10%.

To see how the deficiencies started and how they spread read further I can show you how it started and how it progressed with pictures. Sorry for the wall of text but I try to explain everyithing.

At first only one plant had signs of deficiencies. This was on 12/17/2022 I was feeding way too much and the EC skyrocketed. This went on for some days. Until I lowered the EC about 5 days later. The other plants were ok and growing but only one showed first signs (which is the smallest and almost not growing at all right now)
12/17/2022
View attachment 5255321


5 Days later the EC was very high and the other plants started to show signs too. I changed the res due to high EC and was feeding EC 1.05 (which consisted of about 0.6 EC base nutes and 0.45 EC Cal/Mag)
12/22/2022
View attachment 5255322


Now after changing the res I started to panic and changed the Res and nutrients strength/ratios a lot because deficiencies got even worse which made me panic. I for example first used less Cal/Mag. Then next res change a day later I used less base nutes and more Cal/Mag. I was down to EC 0.9 (0.45 base nutes and 0.45 Cal/Mag)
12/25/2022
View attachment 5255323


Since I paniced and the deficiencies got worse I was still changing the res and the nute strength/ratios on a daily basis. The lowes I went was about EC 0.78 (with base nutes 0.38 and Cal/Mag 0.4). As you can guess over the next days the deficiencies got even worse but all plants were growing except for the one who got damaged first... She stalled. The others grew even with deficiencies.
01/03/2023
Smallest Plant looks stalled compared to some days earlier.
View attachment 5255324
Other plant that still grows even with deficiencies
View attachment 5255325

I started to worry even more and started to ask on RIU for help! They advised me to use more base nutes because plants are starving and to use less Cal/Mag see how that goes. So on 01/03/2023 I changed the Res and EC was 1.0 (0.8 EC base nutes and 0.2 EC Cal/Mag)


Two days later I added more Cal/Mag because plant still got worse and still was panicing instead of beeing chill and don't change as much. (later I got more chill and didn't change as much as often). EC around 1.3 by now.
01/05/2023
View attachment 5255311


Now I stopped changing the Res on a daily basis because people told me to chill and I was only watching the EC raise/fall and acted acordingly (Adding Cal/Mag water when EC raises and adding Nute water if EC lowers) but the EC raised all the time so I was only adding water with Cal/Mag added to it. So the EC didn't change a lot after last res change for about 10 days it was in the 1.1-1.4 range and most of the time I've only added Cal/Mag water because the EC kept rising so I always tried to dilute it. (Maybe this was also a problem because the Cal/Mag accumulated over time)
01/15/2023
View attachment 5255326
View attachment 5255327


By now I stopped panicing because people calmed me down but the deficiencies still kept going even after 15 days after the res change and about 0.45 EC Cal/Mag. I was still wondering and still asking people on RIU for help. I also suspected my PH/EC pens to be malfunctioning from beginning of the grow because they ALWAYS measured different number which didn't make sense to me. Some times I needed 0.5ml for 0.4EC and sometimes I needed 0.8ml to reach 0.45 EC which didn't make sense in my eyes so I ditched them and bought new better pens. As you can see on the 01/15/2023 pictured the deficiencies still went on (even with 0.45 EC Cal/Mag) but they progressed slower. And look at the growing speed of the smallest plant compared to the other! The plant who got deficient first is not growing at all in 10 days whereas the other plants grow even if deficient.

Anyway I started to use the new PH/EC pens which gave me more accurate readings and were stable now. But I made a stupid thing... I lowered the base nutrients again and increased the Cal/Mag. So on 01/15/2023 I changed the Res and it was EC 1.28 (now only 0.72 base nutes and 0.56 Cal/Mag)

Now 2 days later the deficiencies still progressed even after 0.56 EC Cal/Mag (but lower base nutes) so was asking for help again and people told me to raise the base EC because plant is starving (and to add epsom salt for magnesium instead of Cal/Mag but it took some time to get my hand on epsom salt so I only fed base nutes from now on).
01/17/2023

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I cut here because too much attachments. Next post goes on!

1/2
Move your light right up

led is so much stronger than hps
It leads to all sorts of nutrient looking issues when it’s stress from the lights

everyone over doses on food form what I see

these haven’t gone over 1ec in coco
Day21 karma genetics zowahh #3

ive suffered the same issue getting used to my led which is only running at its lowest of 200w

last run she gave back 7.3 per plant this time she’s
Packing a lot More, environments more tuned in and her npk needs are being met more, still some fine tuning I will probably do another two runs of her log as much as I can if I ever run her again
And find a similar pheno with the similar requirements etc
 

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Swarog

Member
I already have the flora grow but I stopped using it long ago because I switched to the lucas formula where you only use flora micro and flora bloom. A lot of people use it this way and it works for them too. That way I even have more calcium and magnesium than using all three bottles.

I also did that. I used it to make my distilled water a base water. I started with distilled water 0.0EC and added Cal/Mag until I was at 0.45 (sometimes less sometimes more) but still I got the deficiencies. Maybe I overdid it or maybe I wasn't using enough base nutrients which made these plants deficient IDK...

Now I'm only using base nutrients and some epsom salt. Will increase all of this over time depending on what my plants tell me and we will see if it works! Hopefully it does!

Yeah maybe the UK Version is more concentrated... idk

I can tell you what my bottle says.

On the front it says "concentrate for buffering of soft water"

and

CA:MG ratio is 4.9/1.4

On the back of the bottle it says

Total nitrogen (N): 5.9%
which consists of Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-N) 5.0% and Uric Nitrogen (Ureum-N) 0.9%

Calcium oxide (CaO) 6.8%
Magnesium oxide (MgO) 2.4%

That's everything thats important the rest is some text and the instructions to use it.

Anyway... I don't use the Cal/Mag anymore right now but I'm a bit lost how much Epsom salt to use and so on... Some people say to don't use at all just base nutes but with only base nutes the deficiencies get worse and so on... It's a kind of trial and error right now until its dialed in...

I think I will need a little more Epsom salt that's it. But I will see.
Cool so its definitely a stronger concentrate.

I personally used lucas method awhile ago with high pressure aeroponics and ran into calmag deficiency and after that I was pretty put off of it.
The lucas formula also leaves out a lot of other nutrients I personally didn't know the plants needed as a newbie but now I always use like Silica/Bennies/Calmag.

My suggestion is look on google/youtube maybe some people have some DWC journals on here and look at what exactly other people are mixing up for their DWC nutrients and just copy that.
 

danzibar1

Active Member
Move your light right up

led is so much stronger than hps
It leads to all sorts of nutrient looking issues when it’s stress from the lights

everyone over doses on food form what I see

these haven’t gone over 1ec in coco
Day21 karma genetics zowahh #3

ive suffered the same issue getting used to my led which is only running at its lowest of 200w

last run she gave back 7.3 per plant this time she’s
Packing a lot More, environments more tuned in and her npk needs are being met more, still some fine tuning I will probably do another two runs of her log as much as I can if I ever run her again
And find a similar pheno with the similar requirements etc
I’ve always pushed my plants metabolism in the past under hps but your try the same with led and no co2 your asking for trouble she will thrive then crash with no energy and leaving of colour will start in the leaves
 

RookieMuffin

Well-Known Member
Move your light right up

led is so much stronger than hps
It leads to all sorts of nutrient looking issues when it’s stress from the lights

everyone over doses on food form what I see

these haven’t gone over 1ec in coco
Day21 karma genetics zowahh #3

ive suffered the same issue getting used to my led which is only running at its lowest of 200w

last run she gave back 7.3 per plant this time she’s
Packing a lot More, environments more tuned in and her npk needs are being met more, still some fine tuning I will probably do another two runs of her log as much as I can if I ever run her again
And find a similar pheno with the similar requirements etc
Thanks for the input!

Ok that's maybe a good advice... I also think the light is way to close right now... I thought I can compensate by dimming but I think overall it's still too much...

The light is meant for a bigger space (the flower area but right now it's in the veg area) plus it's way closer than the manufacturer recommends... So yeah maybe that accelerates this problem!

Right now I use a lights thats recommended for a 5x5 veg space in a 2.5x2.5 veg space... which might be another problem... couple this with a light thats too close and you might be very right that it's just too much which in turn makes my plant deficient!

Look they have a light for a 5x5 veg area (450W I think) and one for a 3x3 veg area (100W). For the 3x3 veg area 100W light they recommend for seedlings to hang at 25-30 inch and dim to 40-60% (so about 40-60W at 25-30 inch). And for vegging plants hang at 18-24 inch and dim to 60-90% (so about 60-90W at 18-24 inch).

For the light I use right now the 450W which was designed for 5x5 veg area the say for seedlings to hang at 30-32inch and 40-60% (so about 180-270W at 30-32inch) and for vegging plant to hang at 26-28 inch and 60-90% (so about 270-405W at 26-28 inch).

Note that the hang at recommendation for the 450W is a bit higher than the 100W (probably because of the 50W more power).

So if I look at my setup right now it is 12.5% dimmed and at 16 inches... so about 56.25 Watt and JUST 16 inches... If we look at the 100W lamp recommendation they recommend to hang at min 18 inches up to 24... So yeah...

I can even compare it to the space... 450W at 60-90% for a 5x5 veg area is about 10.8-16.2Watt per square feet at 26-28 inch.

And for the 100W at 60-90% for 3x3 its about 6.6-10W per square feet at 18-24 inch.

And my setup is 450W at 12.5% for a 2.5x2.5 veg area which is about 9Watt per square feet... which is almost the highest Watt per square feet but even closer than the recommendations!

So maybe I should change my setup and get more space between the canopy and the light! If you look at this... They are very deficient AND too close to light... which sounds like a disaster to me!

If it helps I don't know but I think it won't damage the plant if I make up some space...
 
Last edited:

RookieMuffin

Well-Known Member
Cool so its definitely a stronger concentrate.

I personally used lucas method awhile ago with high pressure aeroponics and ran into calmag deficiency and after that I was pretty put off of it.
The lucas formula also leaves out a lot of other nutrients I personally didn't know the plants needed as a newbie but now I always use like Silica/Bennies/Calmag.

My suggestion is look on google/youtube maybe some people have some DWC journals on here and look at what exactly other people are mixing up for their DWC nutrients and just copy that.
Yeah that's a good idea I already looked at some other grows but right now I'm stuck with what I have.

It's not good to hear that you had problems with it... I have problems too since switching my light to a powerfull LED...

But I really want them to be happy soon... They are already 2 month old but they don't look good enough to switch to flower... The smallest plant didn't even branch out yet... just the Stemp with some leaves on it... So yeah it's time to get them healthy they are way too long deficient... If everyithing went well they would be good to go after 2 month veg...

I even wanted to train them but since they are deficient from the beginning on I didn't do it because I don't want to stress them further....

Damn that sucks.
 

ec121

Well-Known Member
I grow DWC hydroponics. First time problems like this. But I've switched to a high power LED light. I've read Calcium/Magnesium is a LED problem they need more... Anyway idk.
Nutes I use is General Hydroponics Tri Part
I use distilled water

My step-by-step of adding nutes is this: I take distilled water. I take bottle 1 of base nutes add them stir wait a little take bottle 2 of base nutes stir wait a little and so on. And then after base nutes are done I add the Epsom Salt.

At first my EC meter wasn't reliable but now I have a better one which is reliable and calibrated and maintained a lot! So the numbers EC now are right.

How much magnesium sulfate: Right now it's 0.75g/gallon because I don't want to overdo it. But later in this text (at the end) there is a better view of how I've used the epsom salt.

I have a 400W LED grow light right now at 12.5% dimmed because I don't want to use too much and the light is a bit oversized for the plant at full strength so I dim it down a lot. (The light is ment for the flower room but right now it's in the veg room). The distance right now is about 16 inches because I rant out of hight but I still think its more of a nutrient deficiency because even the small one which is way smaller so more distance in between the light maybe 30+ inches. And she even started to show signs when she was even further away and light was dimmed to 10%.

To see how the deficiencies started and how they spread read further I can show you how it started and how it progressed with pictures. Sorry for the wall of text but I try to explain everyithing.

At first only one plant had signs of deficiencies. This was on 12/17/2022 I was feeding way too much and the EC skyrocketed. This went on for some days. Until I lowered the EC about 5 days later. The other plants were ok and growing but only one showed first signs (which is the smallest and almost not growing at all right now)
12/17/2022
View attachment 5255321


5 Days later the EC was very high and the other plants started to show signs too. I changed the res due to high EC and was feeding EC 1.05 (which consisted of about 0.6 EC base nutes and 0.45 EC Cal/Mag)
12/22/2022
View attachment 5255322


Now after changing the res I started to panic and changed the Res and nutrients strength/ratios a lot because deficiencies got even worse which made me panic. I for example first used less Cal/Mag. Then next res change a day later I used less base nutes and more Cal/Mag. I was down to EC 0.9 (0.45 base nutes and 0.45 Cal/Mag)
12/25/2022
View attachment 5255323


Since I paniced and the deficiencies got worse I was still changing the res and the nute strength/ratios on a daily basis. The lowes I went was about EC 0.78 (with base nutes 0.38 and Cal/Mag 0.4). As you can guess over the next days the deficiencies got even worse but all plants were growing except for the one who got damaged first... She stalled. The others grew even with deficiencies.
01/03/2023
Smallest Plant looks stalled compared to some days earlier.
View attachment 5255324
Other plant that still grows even with deficiencies
View attachment 5255325

I started to worry even more and started to ask on RIU for help! They advised me to use more base nutes because plants are starving and to use less Cal/Mag see how that goes. So on 01/03/2023 I changed the Res and EC was 1.0 (0.8 EC base nutes and 0.2 EC Cal/Mag)


Two days later I added more Cal/Mag because plant still got worse and still was panicing instead of beeing chill and don't change as much. (later I got more chill and didn't change as much as often). EC around 1.3 by now.
01/05/2023
View attachment 5255311


Now I stopped changing the Res on a daily basis because people told me to chill and I was only watching the EC raise/fall and acted acordingly (Adding Cal/Mag water when EC raises and adding Nute water if EC lowers) but the EC raised all the time so I was only adding water with Cal/Mag added to it. So the EC didn't change a lot after last res change for about 10 days it was in the 1.1-1.4 range and most of the time I've only added Cal/Mag water because the EC kept rising so I always tried to dilute it. (Maybe this was also a problem because the Cal/Mag accumulated over time)
01/15/2023
View attachment 5255326
View attachment 5255327


By now I stopped panicing because people calmed me down but the deficiencies still kept going even after 15 days after the res change and about 0.45 EC Cal/Mag. I was still wondering and still asking people on RIU for help. I also suspected my PH/EC pens to be malfunctioning from beginning of the grow because they ALWAYS measured different number which didn't make sense to me. Some times I needed 0.5ml for 0.4EC and sometimes I needed 0.8ml to reach 0.45 EC which didn't make sense in my eyes so I ditched them and bought new better pens. As you can see on the 01/15/2023 pictured the deficiencies still went on (even with 0.45 EC Cal/Mag) but they progressed slower. And look at the growing speed of the smallest plant compared to the other! The plant who got deficient first is not growing at all in 10 days whereas the other plants grow even if deficient.

Anyway I started to use the new PH/EC pens which gave me more accurate readings and were stable now. But I made a stupid thing... I lowered the base nutrients again and increased the Cal/Mag. So on 01/15/2023 I changed the Res and it was EC 1.28 (now only 0.72 base nutes and 0.56 Cal/Mag)

Now 2 days later the deficiencies still progressed even after 0.56 EC Cal/Mag (but lower base nutes) so was asking for help again and people told me to raise the base EC because plant is starving (and to add epsom salt for magnesium instead of Cal/Mag but it took some time to get my hand on epsom salt so I only fed base nutes from now on).
01/17/2023

View attachment 5255316
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I cut here because too much attachments. Next post goes on!

1/2
Good info. Lots of helpful pics. I think it's actually light stress. Interveinal chlorosis from a magnesium deficiency starts on the lower growth and from day 1 your symptoms continually appear on newer growth. That combined with the fact that you've grown DWC before successfully and the only thing that has changed is the light, you probably haven't gotten the light dialed right yet. Even an app like Photone for iOS to measure PPFD is better than just winging it.
 

BongerChonger

Well-Known Member
Look at how many other nutrients calcium can lock out when it's used in excess...
That depends a lot on an individual's interpretation of what the chart displays. To myself the chart is a clear example of why Calcium is such a fantastic soil conditioner and soil pH buffer.
Soils you want those elements to bind because It helps form aggregates. Making those elements more slow release.
Of course you can have too much.

In the context of Hydroponics and DWC I'm not sure Mulder's Chart is reliable in the same way. It's soil specific.
Unless the grower is seeing precipitation I suppose?

That said, I agree CalMag supplements do get used far too much.
 

RookieMuffin

Well-Known Member
Good info. Lots of helpful pics. I think it's actually light stress. Interveinal chlorosis from a magnesium deficiency starts on the lower growth and from day 1 your symptoms continually appear on newer growth. That combined with the fact that you've grown DWC before successfully and the only thing that has changed is the light, you probably haven't gotten the light dialed right yet. Even an app like Photone for iOS to measure PPFD is better than just winging it.
Thank you I tried to make it as detailed as possible so it may be easier to diagnose. Thanks that you took the time to look a bit through it! Not everybody reads a wall of text lol.

You are the second one who thinks it may be light stress so some hours ago I've changed my setup completely. Smaller light (the big light was meant for the big flower area anyways so yeah I wanted to change the light when switching to flower to the big area anyways!) also more space between the canopy and the lights. I've also dimmed the new light down and use less wattage right now than before with the bigger light.

Right now I follow the manufacturer recommendation for seedlings just to let them come down from the 2 month light stress... What do you guys think? Is it bad to dim the light too much or in this case it is good to let them calm down and increase light intensity to veg recommendation in a couple of days when plant calmed down a little?

Right now a 100W light dimmed at 40% and 28-39 inch (70-99 cm) away from canopy (Smallest plant is 39 (99cm) inch away and biggest plant is 28 inch (70cm) away).

Do you think it's too far away and dimmed too much?

Before I've used the 450w lamp dimmed at 12.5% and 16 inch away from canopy.

Manufacturer recommends for the 100W lamp for seedlings to hang at 25-30 inch and dim to 40-60% (so about 40-60W at 25-30 inch). And for vegging plants hang at 18-24 inch and dim to 60-90% (so about 60-90W at 18-24 inch).

So I'm basically at a very might seedling recommendation... What do you think is it too low or is it good so the plans can recover better from the stress?

And about the App photone you've mentioned... IDK it's really not that accurate... it read 540ppf for 450W at 100% instead of manufacteurer 2000ppfd... but yeah I still measured and the setup before at 12.5% dimmed the app said 160ppfd highest plant.
 

BongerChonger

Well-Known Member
@weedstoner420 - I have to correct myself. I didn't mean to suggest Mulder's Chart isn't useful in Hydroponics. Straight lockouts and deficiency Mulder's Chart can still be handy. Only to say Calcium's relationship with soil is different.
In soils calcium is a great soil conditioner and soil buffer. Breaks up silts and clays. Forms aggregates aiding in soil aeration, whilst binding to other elements and nutrients making them slow release.
 

weedstoner420

Well-Known Member
That depends a lot on an individual's interpretation of what the chart displays. To myself the chart is a clear example of why Calcium is such a fantastic soil conditioner and soil pH buffer.
Soils you want those elements to bind because It helps form aggregates. Making those elements more slow release.
Of course you can have too much.

In the context of Hydroponics and DWC I'm not sure Mulder's Chart is reliable in the same way. It's soil specific.
Unless the grower is seeing precipitation I suppose?

That said, I agree CalMag supplements do get used far too much.
Are you saying those antagonistic interactions in the chart occur within the soil/medium/nutrient solution? Like for example, calcium ions would chemically interact with other elements in the medium, and turn them into a molecular form that was not as plant-available?

I always thought they referred to the interactions of different elements from the perspective of the plant, i.e. too much calcium in the rhizosphere, and the plants would have trouble absorbing magnesium, etc. Because the plant can't pick out individual ions to "eat," it just absorbs whatever is in the water surrounding the roots...? But I guess I'm not sure what biological/physiological processes inside the plant would cause those interactions to occur...?

Either way, I guess the end result for the grower would be the same, just different ways of getting there...

Dang, now I'm curious about how that chart was created in the first place. Does it apply to all plant species?

And I see some versions of the chart where most of the "antagonism" lines have arrows pointing in both directions, and others where they mostly point in one direction. Which one is correct? So many questions...
 

BongerChonger

Well-Known Member
Are you saying those antagonistic interactions in the chart occur within the soil/medium/nutrient solution?
Though Mulder's Chart is plant specific, I believe so, yes.
Calcium is a huge deal for good soil structure. (sorry can't state this enough) Breaks the soil up and forms peds / aggregates.
Then those aggregates slowly dissolve overtime.
i.e. too much calcium in the rhizosphere, and the plants would have trouble absorbing magnesium, etc.
In the presence of straight lockout, it could, yes.
But alas, theoretically was it actually CalMag? And not the Iron or Nitrate in the product causing problems that look the same?
That's the thing about the chart. Lots of potential tail chasing.
 

Roguedawg

Well-Known Member
Plants take up certain amount of cations. If you decrease one it will still take up the same amount of cations, just more of the ones you did not decrease. If you have a mag deficiency adding Ca at same time is not the way to go. K is taken up easier than either Ca or Mg, so decreasing K will cause plant to uptake more Ca and Mg. Or you can increase the one that is lacking to increase amount the plant uptakes.
 

weedstoner420

Well-Known Member
Though Mulder's Chart is plant specific, I believe so, yes.
Calcium is a huge deal for good soil structure. (sorry can't state this enough) Breaks the soil up and forms peds / aggregates.
Then those aggregates slowly dissolve overtime.

In the presence of straight lockout, it could, yes.
But alas, theoretically was it actually CalMag? And not the Iron or Nitrate in the product causing problems that look the same?
That's the thing about the chart. Lots of potential tail chasing.
That definitely makes sense. Also if it's happening at the soil level, I feel like it would apply more across all plant species, even though their internal biologies may differ drastically.

And that's true about the potential tail-chasing it can lead to, since most fertilizers do contain multiple nutrients. I would be hesitant to use it as a strict diagnostic tool, I mostly use it to illustrate the fact that more is not always better. I would bet most "deficiencies" seen by indoor growers are actually a lockout due to overapplication of one or more nutrients.
 

weedstoner420

Well-Known Member
Plants take up certain amount of cations. If you decrease one it will still take up the same amount of cations, just more of the ones you did not decrease. If you have a mag deficiency adding Ca at same time is not the way to go. K is taken up easier than either Ca or Mg, so decreasing K will cause plant to uptake more Ca and Mg. Or you can increase the one that is lacking to increase amount the plant uptakes.
This explanation also makes a lot of sense, basically nutrients with similar chemical properties can antagonize each other in the soil...
 
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