Manifold 1st time grower near flip, need help

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
Why might 50% be hard...im guessing you are saying as they grow it.might get too high? I think if i shut off the humidifier now having watered yesterday I would go under 50% quickly...i feel like it would be quite a great thing if i didnt have to fill the humidifier 1 or 2x a day. I had 2 running the last few days to get to 70% at canopy. I took out the 2nd and ramped down the first and am sitting around 55 to 60 now.

Outdoor temps here 30 to 45 now.

Thinking out loud I am super curious how a plant that has been run 24 0 responds to half the lighting time it is used to. I know that creates the switch to flower, but am thinking maybe that is how I can ramp up lighting higher easily...half the light time each day i wouls think they will want more intensity for the 12 they are on...i will find out soon!
 

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
Why might 50% be hard...im guessing you are saying as they grow it.might get too high? I think if i shut off the humidifier now having watered yesterday I would go under 50% quickly...i feel like it would be quite a great thing if i didnt have to fill the humidifier 1 or 2x a day. I had 2 running the last few days to get to 70% at canopy. I took out the 2nd and ramped down the first and am sitting around 55 to 60 now.

Outdoor temps here 30 to 45 now.

Thinking out loud I am super curious how a plant that has been run 24 0 responds to half the lighting time it is used to. I know that creates the switch to flower, but am thinking maybe that is how I can ramp up lighting higher easily...half the light time each day i wouls think they will want more intensity for the 12 they are on...i will find out soon!

Maybe you shouldn't run 24hour vegging light. Just one more thing to stress plant (for next run obviously)

For flowering with HID at least 40 watts/sf or 30watts/sf leds (due to greater efficiency)
What are your numbers?
JD
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
Hey CC,
I was browsing the site and ran across a guy with sulfur deficiency. Looks similar...see picture. Review the stuff you put in it to see if maybe you shorted S. This is very rare but does happen.
JD
First let me say again thank you for helping.

I spent some time reviewing what went into the mix. Azomite has some sulfur, Kelp meal does and then the Plantone contains 1% sulfur. I cannot say if thats enough. But I took pictures of 5 different plant leafs for closer inspection.

The first 3 are from the 3 fastest growing, biggest plants. Their issue looks identical. These symptoms, hard to discern for me, seemed to point to Mag problems. This had existed for a LONG time. These plants grow like crazy and the new growth always starts green, and fades to what you see as newer growth comes out.

The last 2 are from 2 other plants, they appear to have a different issue which is closer to what you are suggesting. If I read correctly that sulfur deficiency can be at the new growth....that is true. But mine does not start at the leaf base, it starts at the tip and goes toward the base. Not to say I know but thats what I read it should do for sulfur def.

I spent tons of hours reviewing plant symptoms, and never felt sure I knew the problem. After a long while I began adding the calmag+ to try and combat what you see in the first 3 pics.

The symptoms of the second 2 pics appeared later, in the last 3 weeks, and i could not be sure what it was, so I did not try to change anything. I tried to figure out if pH was off, but i tried 2 diff meters, checked against 7.0 solution, and even used the dye drops to be sure as a 3rd test. The meter I use hit the 7.0 dead on so I did not think I could do much...Dont know the problem, cant fix it. I suspected nitrogen or maybe sulfur but wasnt sure what to do.

Having said all that, I just looked at some generic epsom salt and it has 9.8% magnesium and 12.9% sulfur. I do not have the knowledge to know what it might do. I did use it one time, before I bought calmag+, but I cant remember what if anything it did.

Very open to ideas. The bag says for tomatoes add a tsp per foot of plant every 2 weeks...houseplants it says a tsp per gallon every 4 weeks.

Sorry for the long read but this definitely gets to the very heart of my problems. I wanted to provide good detail so my mistakes can be uncovered.
 

Attachments

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
Maybe you shouldn't run 24hour vegging light. Just one more thing to stress plant (for next run obviously)

For flowering with HID at least 40 watts/sf or 30watts/sf leds (due to greater efficiency)
What are your numbers?
JD
I completely agree. I was using a very small wall plug space heater to warm the space which required a lot of temp adjustment to maintain temps...daily. juat a week ago I put in an oil heater in a corner, on lowest setting and maintaininf temps has been a breeze. Next round I go 18/6.

I have HLG QB288s v1 3500k (cheap...half price of the newer Rspecs). I have 2 HLG heatsinks with 4 boards each. 480watt power supplies on each. With the dimmer I have I can use about 440watts of each (I didnt have a resistor and figures round 1 its enough power). 3500k as many suggest its not only great all around but helps limit stretch.

The main area under the lights is about 25sqft. I ended up with more success than I expected so instead of just 4 or 6 plants I currently have 8 (7 + my slow grower).

880 / 25 = 35 watts per foot available. I raised the lights way up, 27-28" above highest tops now. Lux meter readings are 30-35k. The 2 up front out of the main lighting area are getting about 25k.

250watts each right now. HLG says at current wattage I'm at 2.68umols/joule and would go down to 2.43 if I used all 960 watts (im currently setup for 880 of them).

I put the lights up high because I already was using heat and figured heat from the lights was more efficient than the space heater. I think it was mentioned I could let the plants grow towards the lights and raise the power and height over time.
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
Based upon what we talked about (I am the QB, you gents are the coaches), my inclination is 2 different things. One says leave them alone, now that they will have lights out 12hrs a day that alone will change things a lot and Ive never run flower.

On the other hand, the 2 seemingly likely problems might both be solved with epsom salts. So another option is a tsp per gallon (or half maybe) and see what that does. Or a foliar spray...havent done before as I was 24 0.

The paralysis of a newbie
 
Last edited:

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
Based upon what we talked about (I am the QB, you gents are the coaches), my inclination is 2 different things. One says leave them alone, now that they will have lights out 12hrs a day that alone will change things a lot and Ive never run flower.

On the other hand, the 2 seemingly likely problems might both be solved with epsom salts. So another option is a tsp per gallon (or half maybe) and see what that does. Or a foliar spray...havent done before as I was 24 0.

The paralysis of a newbie
OK...let me talk about epsom salts. Very useful stuff in a canna garden. I'm trying to develop a way to use more of it...near the end of flowering. The sulfur helps terpines near end of bloom and of course...it adds Mg. You may have an opportunity to use it...but not now. If the deficiencies were true deficiencies ...rather then a lockout...then epsom salts would be a good choice. But maybe later you can still squeeze some in...to enhance taste.

But you are doing good thinking along. lol This gets to be complicated.

I reviewed the soil mix and wasn't impressed at all. The main element is an organic powdered nutrient mix. There is no such thing as a complete organic nutrient mix. What they do is to use about 25% chemical nutes mixed up with organic components. All added in at the beginning...which is why you're having problems.

I'm more inclined to believe that you may also hve a sulfur deficiency. Caused by similar interaction issues as your K. Think of this as a single issue. To word it differently...your problem is the rich soil that is causing multiple interations.. No action needed now.
Gonna sleep on it,
JD
 

Father Ramirez

Well-Known Member
Diatomaceous earth is an effective long term deterrent. It’s organic and harmless as long as you DONT BREATHE DE DUST!
Wear a respirator when working with DE, and I mix it thickly into the top layer of soil.
It works by puncturing the exoskeleton, and bugs dehydrate and die.
Tea tree oil kills effectively and quickly. Smells a lot better than neem.
An open half can of Coke will attract gnats which drown in it. Not as gross to look at as sticky cards.

Coast of Maine products makes many organic plant foods. Great stuff. It smells sooooo good even I think it’s edible. I have to keep the bag away from the cats because they try to get into it - they know it’s food made from lobster and kelp!
 

.Smoke

Well-Known Member
Based upon what we talked about (I am the QB, you gents are the coaches), my inclination is 2 different things. One says leave them alone, now that they will have lights out 12hrs a day that alone will change things a lot and Ive never run flower.

On the other hand, the 2 seemingly likely problems might both be solved with epsom salts. So another option is a tsp per gallon (or half maybe) and see what that does. Or a foliar spray...havent done before as I was 24 0.

The paralysis of a newbie
I have water very close to your makeup. I was using calmag along with GH 3 part flora series and noticed a dark green I didn't like. I knew it wasn't from N so figured it had to be too much Ca. Switched to 1 tsp per gal of regular Epsom salt because my (hard) water has low Mg. PPM is 335 and 7.4PH out of the tap. I'm really glad I switched. The CalMag was definitely the problem.

As far as defoliation, once you start getting buds you can take more of the leaves off than what you think and see some pretty good results. I've even gotten to where I'll just use a thumb nail to pinch off a leaf that is blocking bud underneath.
This is an auto that just started week 4 flower and is under 55k-65k LUX (hps) on an 18/6 schedule.
20191126_025304.jpg
20191126_024616.jpg
 
Last edited:

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
OK...let me talk about epsom salts. Very useful stuff in a canna garden. I'm trying to develop a way to use more of it...near the end of flowering. The sulfur helps terpines near end of bloom and of course...it adds Mg. You may have an opportunity to use it...but not now. If the deficiencies were true deficiencies ...rather then a lockout...then epsom salts would be a good choice. But maybe later you can still squeeze some in...to enhance taste.

But you are doing good thinking along. lol This gets to be complicated.

I reviewed the soil mix and wasn't impressed at all. The main element is an organic powdered nutrient mix. There is no such thing as a complete organic nutrient mix. What they do is to use about 25% chemical nutes mixed up with organic components. All added in at the beginning...which is why you're having problems.

I'm more inclined to believe that you may also hve a sulfur deficiency. Caused by similar interaction issues as your K. Think of this as a single issue. To word it differently...your problem is the rich soil that is causing multiple interations.. No action needed now.
Gonna sleep on it,
JD
JD thank you for pondering all this. It occured to me too that this is one hot mix and was maybe too much the whole way through. I thought that because when I read about supersoil or kind soil they usually say to fill the bottom third with the rich mix and use Roots or FFOF or something similar for the rest...mine is 100% that recipe. As much as I want to believe its a nitro or mag deficiency...i then remember kindsoil claims filling just the bottom of the pot in a 7gal bag is enough for 10-12 weeks veg and full flower (their claim)...I cant possibly have used anything up yet, could I? I also have no idea if what I built is like Kindsoil.

Following the KISS principle I have tried not to make it worse. I really hope I can make this work. I hear the point that planttone fert isnt some great choice. I simply tried to go with what seemed to be a good place to start..do the mix build let it cook and that would take care of nutrition. I look forward to possible ideas to improve things!
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
Diatomaceous earth is an effective long term deterrent. It’s organic and harmless as long as you DONT BREATHE DE DUST!
Wear a respirator when working with DE, and I mix it thickly into the top layer of soil.
It works by puncturing the exoskeleton, and bugs dehydrate and die.
Tea tree oil kills effectively and quickly. Smells a lot better than neem.
An open half can of Coke will attract gnats which drown in it. Not as gross to look at as sticky cards.

Coast of Maine products makes many organic plant foods. Great stuff. It smells sooooo good even I think it’s edible. I have to keep the bag away from the cats because they try to get into it - they know it’s food made from lobster and kelp!
Hey FR thank you for coming into the thread! Ive enjoyed our conversation and appreciate the advice. Reading as you say it can be dangerous I decided not to use in my current grow, but I have been adding it to my used soil bin as i cull out some plants...and tg I used a respirator.

Thank you also for the organic nutrient ideas, I look forward to trying to improve this grow and future ones as well. Your input and insights are very, very welcome here!
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
I have water very close to your makeup. I was using calmag along with GH 3 part flora series and noticed a dark green I didn't like. I knew it wasn't from N so figured it had to be too much Ca. Switched to 1 tsp per gal of regular Epsom salt because my (hard) water has low Mg. PPM is 335 and 7.4PH out of the tap. I'm really glad I switched. The CalMag was definitely the problem.

As far as defoliation, once you start getting buds you can take more of the leaves off than what you think and see some pretty good results. I've even gotten to where I'll just use a thumb nail to pinch off a leaf that is blocking bud underneath.
This is an auto that just started week 4 flower and is under 55k-65k LUX (hps) on an 18/6 schedule.
View attachment 4427600
View attachment 4427601
.Smoke thank you for coming in to the thread I welcome you and like your thinking...and those beauties you are killing me with those pics

Since u brought up water I rechecked my city tests and here is what they say --

Ph 7.8
Hardness 145
Calcium 35
Mag 13
K 1.3
TDS 150
TS 190
My last batch of water was 7.8, it seems to vary 7.4 to 7.8, mostly 7.4ish

I check my water ph but havent tested my own ppm.

My 1st 3 pics have always looked like a Mag problem to me but with my mix I just cant say. I really appreciate your thoughts and hope you will stick around and help with any ideas you have.

I tried bubblegum recently and loved it, that looks Magnificent.
 

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
.Smoke thank you for coming in to the thread I welcome you and like your thinking...and those beauties you are killing me with those pics

Since u brought up water I rechecked my city tests and here is what they say --

Ph 7.8
Hardness 145
Calcium 35
Mag 13
K 1.3
TDS 150
TS 190
My last batch of water was 7.8, it seems to vary 7.4 to 7.8, mostly 7.4ish

I check my water ph but havent tested my own ppm.

My 1st 3 pics have always looked like a Mag problem to me but with my mix I just cant say. I really appreciate your thoughts and hope you will stick around and help with any ideas you have.

I tried bubblegum recently and loved it, that looks Magnificent.
Mornin' CC
If your water stayed at 145ppm...you would be good. Many places have water that changes seasonably. Mine does...higher ppm and ph in summer. All good reasons for using RO...so that when you mix stuff up...you know what you have. Consistency.

I wish you hadn't told me about your soil mix. The last extreme measure is to remove as much of the soil as possible and replace it with a good store bought mix. I've done it...but it was years ago. You need a big bin filled with water and gently wash away old soil...as much as washed away easily. Goal is to not traumatize roots. Then repack nw soil around old rootbal.

I am not saying to do that. But I think you put too much nutrient in your mix...which is what's causing problems.

Step back and ponder. Do you want to start flowering knowing you're probably going to have issues and may never even finish right. Or delay your grow another week and get some good soil in there. Even timed release nutrients are a problem in many store bought soil...so watch out for that. Something like FFOF from a hydro store is what you want.

And this is your decision...
JD
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
Mornin' CC
If your water stayed at 145ppm...you would be good. Many places have water that changes seasonably. Mine does...higher ppm and ph in summer. All good reasons for using RO...so that when you mix stuff up...you know what you have. Consistency.

I wish you hadn't told me about your soil mix. The last extreme measure is to remove as much of the soil as possible and replace it with a good store bought mix. I've done it...but it was years ago. You need a big bin filled with water and gently wash away old soil...as much as washed away easily. Goal is to not traumatize roots. Then repack nw soil around old rootbal.

I am not saying to do that. But I think you put too much nutrient in your mix...which is what's causing problems.

Step back and ponder. Do you want to start flowering knowing you're probably going to have issues and may never even finish right. Or delay your grow another week and get some good soil in there. Even timed release nutrients are a problem in many store bought soil...so watch out for that. Something like FFOF from a hydro store is what you want.

And this is your decision...
JD
Oh boy...I have thought about this for about 8 of the 9 weeks since starting. I know I have never had beautiful lush green plants like other folks. I have NO flowering experience so I dont know what a plant can tolerate. What I know so far is no matter what I have done to them so far...started with RO water, then used plain tap water...then got a ph meter...then got ph up and down, bought some calmag...tried a tiny dose of big bloom...tried recharge...then raised temps...then went straight ph water...they keep on growing.

Higher temps and recharge imo have had the most benefits. Ive read every plant problem site and thread 5x over, I feel like a classroom expert who simply cant diagnose his own plants. Growweedeasy says over and over when you cant figure out your problem, it is likely a root issue because root problems can look like almost anything. That is what led me to say..ok, lets say i didnt water the pots enough each watering for a while...I put in half a gallon every 4 days instead of a gallon. Last watering i did a gallon on 3 days...but i also used the soil meter to check each one. I reduced water by a quart for 2 and by 2 quarts for the smaller plant based on how wet they were. I water better now, watering to the edges slowly and for the first few quarts before working towards the middle. IF i didnt water properly before maybe I had hot spots in the soil....also, i started with some fungus gnats which like to eat small root shoots from what i read. So what safe route can i take for root help without burning them further? Thats where Recharge came in and seemed to help. Higher temps also seemed to help. Gnat management is very under control imo and i think thats at a safe level...it was crazy at the beginning. Because i left the pots filled in the garage to cook and didnt manage the moisture right i guess.

Logic tells me that the organic thread must be ok in some regard because it has 736 pages and is still being updated today. IF I was half as smart as I pretend to be I would have joined that site and asked over there for some ideas. But i didnt and am sure you and others here know enough about soil that there isnt much anybody there would know that isnt here too.

Because the new growth always seems to look good before fading, I cant help but think mobile nutrient(s) are out of balance and or locked out. Like you say it isnt out of Mag, cause they would be dead without it, but why do the fastest growing plants always seem Mag deficient? Did adding calmag+ fix my problem? No. Could epsom salt, by only adding Mag and Sulfur without iron or calcium? I wish it would, but have no way of knowing where that might lead. 2 of the plants...the ones in the last 2 pics do look faded a bit like maybe they need some sulfur. And the others look like they need Mag.

It points me again at possibly epsom salts. So if I add epsom salts in the next few waterings, what other problems might I create? If the only real issue with sulfur abundance is slowed growth....witness my one slow growing plant...all green and pretty...and slow and stunted compared to the others. Hmmmm, maybe that isnt its issue, i dont know.

At this point they are switching to flower, I dont want to risk repotting them all. How much does your experience tell you NOT to try epsom salts for a few waterings? It seems so many growers feel it is necessary. Since calmag+didnt fix things, would leaving out the cacium and iron maybe avoid some issues?

.Smoke said he has similar water and calmag was the issue...switching to epsom fixed it....so lets talk downsides. Does flowering have any tolerance for testing this out?

So maybe next watering or 2 I pH to 6.5 with epsom salt added?

One good thing about flipping is I cant go check on them several times a day lol! Newbie staring. Temps lights out are within 3 or 4 degrees and humidity low to mid 50s. Fans all running same. So darn it,I got the environment dialed in! This pesky nutrition problem though is bothersome! It would be wonderful to just have lush green plants!
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
I have water very close to your makeup. I was using calmag along with GH 3 part flora series and noticed a dark green I didn't like. I knew it wasn't from N so figured it had to be too much Ca. Switched to 1 tsp per gal of regular Epsom salt because my (hard) water has low Mg. PPM is 335 and 7.4PH out of the tap. I'm really glad I switched. The CalMag was definitely the problem.

As far as defoliation, once you start getting buds you can take more of the leaves off than what you think and see some pretty good results. I've even gotten to where I'll just use a thumb nail to pinch off a leaf that is blocking bud underneath.
This is an auto that just started week 4 flower and is under 55k-65k LUX (hps) on an 18/6 schedule.
View attachment 4427600
View attachment 4427601
.smoke i am hoping you can come back and talk a bit more about your changes with epsom salts. If you can take a look at my pics and see if you think epsom salts might help. My problem is fade to what looks somewhat like a Mag def...it couldnt be a Nitrogen def could it? Do you think sulfur would help hurt or have no effect on my leaves? I wish my plants were too green!
 

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
CC,
I have confidence that you will sort it out. Add epsom salts if you want. At this point...anything that causes a difference is good news.

I think you should post about your soil in the organic section. Maybe those guys can give you more useful advice.
JD
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
I pulled this from an autoflower site: "...First of all Calcium toxicity is hard to diagnose and it is almost impossible to do from just observing the leafs but you can observe calcium toxicity by getting signs of Magnesium, Potassium and Manganese deficiency as too much calcium will lock out these three elements and in some cases you can also get Iron deficiency symptoms."

In my mix i used epsoma pelletized garden lime. (I had said dolomite before)
21% calcium
10% magnesium
 

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
I pulled this from an autoflower site: "...First of all Calcium toxicity is hard to diagnose and it is almost impossible to do from just observing the leafs but you can observe calcium toxicity by getting signs of Magnesium, Potassium and Manganese deficiency as too much calcium will lock out these three elements and in some cases you can also get Iron deficiency symptoms."

In my mix i used epsoma pelletized garden lime. (I had said dolomite before)
21% calcium
10% magnesium

And then you added calmag...
 
Top