Methodical, scientific approach to nutrients and nutrient formulations discussion

fatman7574

New Member
It's guaranteed analysis just lists Calcium 10% and trace metals all below 1 ppm. The only analysis I can find on it says 10% calcium and also list trace amounts of trace elements metals all below 1 ppm. The stickler here is it does not list calcium. There is calcium chloride that is normally 36% calcium but the analysis does not list chloride. There is calcium Hydroxide in water, called Kalkwasser but it is just calcium saturated water. It would require about 5 quarts to raise the calcium level of 10 gallons 100 ppm. The remaining choice is a chelated calcium. Usually chelated calcium is quite expensive and seldom used. At over $80 per gallon I would say it is chelated calcium. It is the most expensive way to add calcium. The most common method to add calcium is to simply use calcium nitrate. It also adds nitrate as it is 20% calcium and 15.5% nitrate. Cal-mag is usually just Calcium Nitrate and magnesium sulfate. I would even use Kalkwasser made from calcium Hydroxide before considering chelated calcium. It is just ridiculously expensive and as they do not list the chelate type possibly toxic if used in large amounts. As it is made for soils and not hydroponics I imagine they are just using EDTA as the chelate, if that is the case it would NOT be safe to use in hydroponics.
 

Gixxerboy

Well-Known Member
I also came across these late last night



GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
(6.5 - 0 - 0)
Total Nitrogen (N) 6.5%
0.5% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
6.0% Nitrate Nitrogen
Calcium (Ca) 8.0%


Guaranteed Analysis.................. 0-0-15
Total Soluble Potassium..................................................
Derived from Potassium Carbonate
Nonplant food ingredients................ Polyhydroxycarboxylic acids
Net Contents..............................................
Net Weight.........................................
Density........................................................
pH Analysis..........................................................................
K20 15%
2.5 Gallons\9.46 liters
25.50 lbs.\11.55 kilograms
1.2 - 1.25 g/cm3 20o C
7.0-7.5


http://www.nutri-cal.com/products.html
 

fatman7574

New Member
How To Determine Ammonium/Nitrate Ratio

Nitrogen is the building block of amino acids, proteins and chlorophyll. Plants can absorb nitrogen either as Nitrate (NO3-) or Ammonium (NH4+), and therefore, the total uptake of nitrogen usually consists of a combination of these two forms.

The ratio between Ammonium and Nitrate is of a great significance, and affects both plants and soil/medium.

For optimal uptake and growth, each plant species requires a different ammonium/nitrate ratio. The correct ratio to be applied also varies with temperature, growth stage, pH in the root zone and soil properties. The typical recommended ratio for hydroponic MJ is from 3 to 15 percentage of the total nitrogen to be ammonium nitrogen.

Root Zone Temperature

First we need to understand the different ways these two nutrient forms are metabolized:

Ammonium metabolism consumes much more oxygen than metabolism of Nitrate. Ammonium is metabolized in the roots, where it reacts with sugars.

These sugars have to be delivered from their production site in the leaves, down to the roots.

On the other hand Nitrate is transported up to the leaves, where it is reduced to Ammonium and then reacts with sugars.

At higher temperatures the plant's respiration is increased, consuming sugars faster, making them less available for Ammonium metabolism in the roots. At the same time, at high temperatures, Oxygen solubility in water is decreased, making it less available as well.

Therefore, the practical conclusion is that at higher temperatures applying a lower Ammonium/Nitrate ratio is advisable.

At lower temperatures and lighting intensities Ammonium nutrition is a more appropriate choice, because Oxygen and sugars are more available at root level. In addition, since transport of Nitrate to the leaves is restricted at low temperatures, basing the fertilization on Nitrate will delay the plant's growth.

Plant Species and Growth Stages

As we already established, sugars need to be transported down from the leaves to the roots to meet the Ammonium.

In growing plants in which the majority of the growth is in the leaves e.g. MJ, sugars are consumed quickly near their production site and are much less available for transport to the roots.

Thus, Ammonium will not be efficiently metabolized and use of a lower Ammonium/Nitrate ratio is usually preferred.

Effect of Ammonium/Nitrate Ratio on Root Zone pH

Electrical balance in the root cells must be maintained, so for each positively charged ion that is taken up, a positively charged ion is released and the same is true for negatively charged ions.

Thus, when the plant takes up Ammonium (NH4+), it releases a proton (H+) to the soil solution. Increase of protons concentration around the roots, decreases the pH around the roots.

Accordingly, when the plant takes up Nitrate (NO3-) it releases bicarbonate (HCO3-), which increases the pH around the roots.

We can conclude that uptake of Nitrate increases pH around the roots while uptake of Ammonium decreases it.

This phenomena is especially important in soil-less media, where the roots may easily affect the medium pH because their volume is relatively large compared with the medium's volume. To prevent medium pH from rapidly changing, we should keep an appropriate Ammonium/Nitrate ratio, according to the cultivar, temperature and the growing stage.

It is noteworthy that under certain conditions, the pH may not respond as expected due to nitrification (conversion of Ammonium into Nitrate by bacteria in the soil). Nitrification is a very rapid process, and the added ammonium may be quickly converted and absorbed as Nitrate, thus increasing pH in the root zone, instead of decreasing it.

Ammonium/Nitrate Effect on Uptake of Other Nutrients

Ammonium is a cation (positively charged ion), so it competes with other cations (Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium) for uptake by the roots. An unbalanced fertilization, with too high Ammonium content, might result in Calcium and Magnesium deficiencies. Potassium uptake is less affected by the competition.

As already mentioned, Ammonium/Nitrate ratio may change the pH near the roots. These pH changes may affect solubility and availability of other nutrients.
 

fatman7574

New Member
I also came across these late last night



GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
(6.5 - 0 - 0)
Total Nitrogen (N) 6.5%
0.5% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
6.0% Nitrate Nitrogen
Calcium (Ca) 8.0%


Guaranteed Analysis.................. 0-0-15
Total Soluble Potassium..................................................
Derived from Potassium Carbonate
Nonplant food ingredients................ Polyhydroxycarboxylic acids
Net Contents..............................................
Net Weight.........................................
Density........................................................
pH Analysis..........................................................................
K20 15%
2.5 Gallons\9.46 liters
25.50 lbs.\11.55 kilograms
1.2 - 1.25 g/cm3 20o C
7.0-7.5


http://www.nutri-cal.com/products.html
The first is simply a concentrate solution of common Calcium Nitrate fertilizer with a little ammonium nitrate added.

http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=264_267&products_id=1105&zenid=1b3947fb54523b0a908a9c82dc89d47f

Calcium Nitrate is a common Hydroponic fertilizers so it is also sold by the pound.

The second product is made for soil grows and it is not likely it would work well with hydroponics. It certainly looks like it would be a good source of potash for organic mediums.
 

dankesthours182

Well-Known Member
hey thanks a million fatman, ben; I'll be checking out those links you pointed us to. i hate to clutter the forums, but i needed to know quick. Thanks again.
 

fatman7574

New Member
More complete information on the NutriK and Nutri-Cal.

http://www.nutri-cal.com/products.html Most of what they offer while being of benefit of those wishing to do foliar feeding is of little additional benefit beyond the more commonly used products that are readily taken up through plant roots. So basically unless you use the products for fooliar application you are paying additional for a feature which will not provide any benefits. It is not cheap. It is about $25 a gallomn and each gallon only makes 8 gallons of usable foliar spray. They do not say what the ppm concentration is of the mixed spray or the unmixed gallons.
 

clydefrog

Well-Known Member
assuming four things:

1. i'm having a hard time locating all the elements for mixing up my own nutes locally...
2. my grow shop don't stock foliage pro...
3. i'd rather not have them order it for me...
4. i'd rather not have it shipped to me either...

could i get some ammonium sulfate and add it to my 7-9-5 dynagro as a nitrogen boost? that would leave me with the trace elements DG so handily provides already.

here's the stuff i found locally...

http://www.apfcorp.net/products/s-sul_tips.html
 

fatman7574

New Member
A much better choice would be pottasium Nitrate so as to boost both the nitrogen and potash as the phosphorus is too high. Actually to balanv ce it you would need to add this into four gallons of water and then add the one gallon of the 7-9-5. This will give you Foliage Pro but with a slight increase in calcium and magnesium.

Calcium Nitrate 86.0
Potassium Nitrate 44.2
Magnesium Sulfate 27.0


Magnesium sulfate is just epsom salts sold at grocert stores and pharmacies.

Neither Calcium Nitrate or pottasium nitrate can be used to make bombs or toxic gasses easily so they should be readily available. Any green house supplier will have them in small bags/boxes or maybe 50 pound bags.

Typical retail at a green house supply is $30 for 50 pounds of Calcium Nitrate, Magnesium Sulfate is $1.71 per pond or $36 for 50 pounds, Pottasium Nitrate is $5 per pound or $70 for 50 pounds. As you can see the fertilizer is not well balanced. There is over 3 times the phosphorus as should be present. As you cannot removed the phosphorus everthing else must be raised.
 

clydefrog

Well-Known Member
sorry i missed that shit earlier.

another dumbass Q...i'm not using RO yet so it's city water all the way...meaning i should have lots and lots and lots of calcium already. is there another way around my situation? does it not really matter all that much? am i basically fucked?
 

fatman7574

New Member
The amount of calcium in city tap water is based upon three things. Is the water that the city uses come from wells (ground water) or is it from a lake, river or reservoir (surface water, and if it is it softened by the city through the standard lime and soda ash method. Typically ground water is higher in more mineral rich and therefore harder water and it is therefore often softened. If softened conventionally you will end up with water with a low amount of calcium but a high alkalinity. What you would end up with is some soluble calcium in the form of calcium carbonate, Magnesium carbonate, and calcium bicarbonate. ie buffers. It also leaves a butt load of bisodiumsulfate. Sodium levels in MJ hydroponic nutrients should be kept below 30 ppm. The typical levels of sodium in lime soda softened water is typically over 15 ppm. This means going long periods between reservoir changes is not recommended as the sodium will accumulate every time you top off with fresh water. Ie by the time you have added as much water in top offs as the reservoir originally held your already at the maximum sodium level , possibly higher. The availability of the calcium would be dependent on the amount of CO2 in your water. Usually softened water has only about 40 ppm to 50 ppm of calcium left.

Surface water can be full of all kinds of nasty stuff, depending on whether you live near an agricultural area or a industrial area. It however contains very little calcium or alkalinity.
 

clydefrog

Well-Known Member
You're basically fucked if you don't know what's in your water. Get an analysis from your supplier, or if you're on a well send off a sample to your extension service. You can't assume you have anything.
i know what's in the water...60-80 ppm calcium already from the water co. hardening...around here the total ppm sodium, calcium and other good stuff is around 150-160 ppm out of the tap.

its really good water, it's just already moderately hard so i'm leery about adding more calcium.
 

fatman7574

New Member
i know what's in the water...60-80 ppm calcium already from the water co. hardening...around here the total ppm sodium, calcium and other good stuff is around 150-160 ppm out of the tap.

its really good water, it's just already moderately hard so i'm leery about adding more calcium.
its really good water :shock:

Go online and get the information. You need to know Hardness as CaCO3, Alkalinity as CaCO3, Calcium in ppm and Magnesium in ppm. Obtaining the bicarbonate level in ppm would be nice also. Not really necessary but it makes interpretation easier.

You also need to know if they have softened the water by the lime/soda ash method. You might have to call them for this information as they are not required by law to actually provide this information as they are not Primary MCL items.

Usually they post it anyway so as to brag about their water quality. Funny as few people know how to interpret the information anyway. I think after research you will see that the water is good for doing laundry and drinking but not necessarily good for plants. It is very likely water softened by the typical lime and soda ash method.

This softening method will mean you will have plenty of buffers (alkalinity) but very little calcium. Your water will be loaded with sodium sulfate, calcium bicarbonate and magnesium carbonate and just a small amount of readily usable calcium. The calcium tied up as magnesium carbonate and calcium bicarbonate will remain tied up until the calcium is freed by an excess of acid becoming present.
 

clydefrog

Well-Known Member
its surface water that is actively hardened...

"calcium as CA--50 mg/l
hardness as CACO3--150 mg/l
alkalinity as CACO3--83 mg/l"
 

GrowingfortheGold

New Member
Yea over here in SF our water is great too. Doesn't read on my TDS meter LOL. So it's under 100 for sure. I don't even account for it in my nutrient dosing.
 
this has prob been answered a hundred times on here, but for some reason i can not find the answer. my seeds sprouted about 2 days ago, when should i start to use the fox farm grow big 6-4-4? thanks so much for your time!
 
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