Most breeders are a rip off.

i was going to get some of sannie's gear but i read that they insist that you sign for any deliverys. is this something they still insist on or did i read bull shit?

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i haven't ordered from them yet, but have heard that they insist on registered mail to prevent scammers, and there's plenty of them, from faking claims they never received their beans. i wouldn't worry about it myself as many seem to get their gear without a hitch and love it. it's not really that different signing for something than just getting it mailed to you. if your beans are discovered, they get seized.

it's just one of those things the individual has to decide on. for me, getting one of the top two jack herers in the world for $50 instead of sensi seeds $225 version makes writing my name down a small issue. if there were a problem, you'd hear about it in the forums. with a small bank that's off most people's radar that don't live in forums like this, their volume must be low as well as their profit margins. i'm cool with them protecting themselves as i seem to recall that they're very good to their customers that don't try to screw them over, like say the one a member here was complaining about at cannagraphic that hits everyone up for freebies and when he tried faking he didn't get any from a legit breeder, he started trash talking them but the locals knew he was just a weasel. there's one in every crowd. remember all those cheaters in EVERY class in school? hard to make a buck with trash like that about.[

You have the option for no track and trace. Just means if the are "lost" he won't replace them. I've never had problem.

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OK... yeah... there's that option too then. personally, i'd rather get at least a big order "insred" with tracking after having over a $120 order at doc's go missing years ago and got NOTHING for my loss making me stop ordering from him when he used to be my favorite bank. i just don't trust postal workers after 2 out of 2 regitered and THEORETICALLY insured money orders for an import CD went missing with a postal it sucks to be you.

Mmmmmm, I don't like signing for things if you don't have too. I'd say this doesn't present a problem at the moment. Because they arean't enforcing the postal laws, because of the cost... AKA, you don't see people being busted for ordering seeds. The only time I've actually ever seen it enforced, was with Marc Emery. Where some of the people that ordered seeds from Emery, were actually tracked down. In order to force them to testify against Emery.

Breeders a rip off?

Well, okay look at it like this. Your average seed company, has about 50 strains they sell. which means more or less you have to have 50 females and 50 males (unless you use limited males, still 50 females though)

And to maintain these lines, you have to keep cloning, (and hold between 50 and a 100 mother plants)

So you have to keep growing and propigating constantly and keep constant track of 100 to 200 plants to make all these strains. And thats just to make seed, if you want smoke (that isn't all screwed up from seeding) you have to grow even more and keep track of even more.

It's hard for a person that isn't stoned all the time to keep track of all that. What do you think happens when your all buzzed up all the time, and maybe not that bright to begin with.

Vincent VonBlown said:

Breeders a rip off?

Well, okay look at it like this. Your average seed company, has about 50 strains they sell. which means more or less you have to have 50 females and 50 males (unless you use limited males, still 50 females though)

And to maintain these lines, you have to keep cloning, (and hold between 50 and a 100 mother plants)

So you have to keep growing and propigating constantly and keep constant track of 100 to 200 plants to make all these strains. And thats just to make seed, if you want smoke (that isn't all screwed up from seeding) you have to grow even more and keep track of even more.

It's hard for a person that isn't stoned all the time to keep track of all that. What do you think happens when your all buzzed up all the time, and maybe not that bright to begin with.

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and thats the numbers for small scale breeders...the big ones do 1000 plant runs picking the top 2-10 performers for breeding stock

the current trend I see though is the bullshit "subcontracting" out to breeders to produe their stock...there goes quality control out the window...but with the recent Dutch crackdowns forced by our fucked up USA govt. they have no choice...watch those Spanish breeeders though...imo the best is coming out of there now for the most part...they are the ones still doing 1000 plant grows in house as Spain gave the finger to the USA over cannabis

it's really fucked up how the US can extend it's greedy fascist alcohol/tobacco/pharmaceiticals/nylon/cotton/timber/latex etc. agenda on other countries. the US has no fucking jurisdiction over fucking canadian citizens, first off, even if emory was a douchbag that ripped his customers off and second... IT'S JUST A FUCKING PLANT THAT GOD SAW FIT TO GIFT US!!! how the fuck do you outlaw a fucking plant and not something more damaging, oh, like the fucking oil industry?!!! you want to see something that makes you sick to your stomach? try watching petropolis. THERE'S some shit that should be outlawed! weed? it fixes a lot of that same greed based problem and fights global warming. stay the fuck off mother nature's tip uncle sam!!!

Smh ...there was alot of good info discussed here but some really bad info being giving ...

1. When did u see the breeder plant or tell u he went tru 1000s of seeds ..that's a fucking lie that people need to stop spreading ..stop buying into grow "mythical" breeder nonsense ..

U read some old canna stories or heard some good ones from back in the day ..but where in the world can u grow 1000 seeds and talk about it doing selection ..the space isn't even available

2.time frame ..1000 seeds ?? Work involved harvest testing etc ..c'mon 1000s of plants ??? It would take u longer to grow and select with those numbers than actually breed ..it would take yrs!!! For a new strain

For example .."shanti" and "Sam" both claimed to have grown extraordinary amount of plants in the thousands ..ok I can believe that ..it was a diffrent time back then and these guys were selecting for new varieties and stabilizing ..growing a few hundred at a time ..can add up after a few yrs

But even with all those pants grown how many new varieties came about ?? 2 maybe 3 ..the same 2 or 3 that's almost found in every strain to date ..skunk ..haze..northern lights ..

These plants were grown in the 1000s causing them to become building blocks but not anymore ..nobody is growing 1000s of plants wasting time and space when they can do 2 things

A.buy from a wholesaler and make money
B.buy a pack of seeds from another company and make f2s or s1s with cs ..

I've seen BREEDERS say they only had 5 seeds to work with but they made a whole line from just 5 seeds ..I've seen some say they only had 3 to pop outta 10 old hard to get beans as they weren't gonna let em go to waste ..

I've seen breeders on ic mag for example state that another breeders work is good and he BOUGHT 1-2 packs and he might be breeding with them ..this 1000 plant number bull shit needs to stop ...


As far as Spain and the Spanish seeds banks there using all old strains ..I haven't see ONE new variety come outta Spain yet ..he'll there just jumping on the OG craze ...

silverhazefiend said:

Smh ...there was alot of good info discussed here but some really bad info being giving ...

1. When did u see the breeder plant or tell u he went tru 1000s of seeds ..that's a fucking lie that people need to stop spreading ..stop buying into grow "mythical" breeder nonsense ..

U read some old canna stories or heard some good ones from back in the day ..but where in the world can u grow 1000 seeds and talk about it doing selection ..the space isn't even available

2.time frame ..1000 seeds ?? Work involved harvest testing etc ..c'mon 1000s of plants ??? It would take u longer to grow and select with those numbers than actually breed ..it would take yrs!!! For a new strain

For example .."shanti" and "Sam" both claimed to have grown extraordinary amount of plants in the thousands ..ok I can believe that ..it was a diffrent time back then and these guys were selecting for new varieties and stabilizing ..growing a few hundred at a time ..can add up after a few yrs

But even with all those pants grown how many new varieties came about ?? 2 maybe 3 ..the same 2 or 3 that's almost found in every strain to date ..skunk ..haze..northern lights ..

These plants were grown in the 1000s causing them to become building blocks but not anymore ..nobody is growing 1000s of plants wasting time and space when they can do 2 things

A.buy from a wholesaler and make money
B.buy a pack of seeds from another company and make f2s or s1s with cs ..

I've seen BREEDERS say they only had 5 seeds to work with but they made a whole line from just 5 seeds ..I've seen some say they only had 3 to pop outta 10 old hard to get beans as they weren't gonna let em go to waste ..

I've seen breeders on ic mag for example state that another breeders work is good and he BOUGHT 1-2 packs and he might be breeding with them ..this 1000 plant number bull shit needs to stop ...


As far as Spain and the Spanish seeds banks there using all old strains ..I haven't see ONE new variety come outta Spain yet ..he'll there just jumping on the OG craze ...

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BECAUSE POLLEN CHUCKERS NOT BREEDERS ABOUND AFTER THE QUICK $$$. True breeders, and they are still around do the high plant selection and stability breeding.






And as to your Spain Claim....
POSITRONICS
[TABLE="class: contentpaneopen"]
[TR]
[TD="class: contentheading"]CUM LAUDE[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: contentpaneopen"]
[TR]
[TD][h=1]CUM LAUDE, PURE SATIVA HAZE
THE CHOICE OF MR. ANTONIO ESCOHOTADO[/h]
Cum Laude borns as an acknowledgement to Mr. Antonio Escohotado, for his priceless work normalizing the cannabis scene. Teacher, philosopher, writer... he's one of the big thinkers of the XX century, and is considered one of the pioneers in the fight for the cannabis users' rights.

[h=1]Hibridisation[/h]Cum laude is a triple hibridisation of pure sativas. Some elite clones were given to us with the intention of working to creat a stable line of pure sativa.

[h=1]GENEALOGY[/h](Queen mother X Tijuana) X original Haze
[h=1]Physiological description[/h]Will grow very fast from the very beginning with a typical fir pattern. Pruning during growth will change this pattern to a candelabrum. That's why we advise to shorten the growing period. Long internodal distance with a strong structure that will keep with the weight of the big flowers. Average amount of leafs, extremely thin of a light green color. Buds will look like thick and dense wheatstalks, covered with an oily layer of tricomes.

[h=1]PROPIEDADES ORGANOLEPTICAS[/h]AROMA: The living plant smells aniseed with lavender notes. Complex aroma that will develop acquiring deepest notes of coffee and exotic species. Dry flowers will sharpen these and will impregnate the room. We will easily recognise it due to its singularity.
SABOR: EUREKA! This is the point, sativa lovers... Long lasting flavour with many terpenes and terpenoids (pinonello, limonello...) if you don't like it we can say you don't like sativas. Strong earthy notes with hotspicy sensations. Extreme dry mouth and flavour that last for long.
EFFECT: Inmediate clean high, long and pleasurant, where the mind accelerates and can lead to high creative moments. Without a doubt, a haze that will amuse the exotic sativa lovers.
[h=1]RECOMMENDS[/h]Indoor: Avoid the growing period and start straight with the 12/12 photoperiod, in fact we need to take care of its height. After 35 days it'll start showing the first flowers and in 45 days more will be ready for harvest. Will develop a big central cola that will be better tied to a bamboo stick. High nitrogene nutrition will avoid early yellowing of the leaf, and ph level checking becomes necessary. High moisture levels tolerated and resistant to fungus.
OUTDOOR: For a discrete growing, sow as late as possible. The ventilated flower will tolerate high humidity levels. Will fully develop with plenty of sun. In a satisfactory cultivation will produce big long colas of flowers that will make you the king of sativas.

Outdoor sowing: June-july
harvest: outdoor: end of october
harvest: indoor: 75-80 days


Seems you need to learn a bit before you say things you think instead of things you know
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

FreedomSunshine said:

Humboldt Local here
Humboldt Seed Organization is not from around here
nor are their genetics
there are a few local underground breeders here with some very quality genetics

I've noticed (maybe just me) but the seeds I get from EU are nowhere near as healthy or vigorous as the ones I've acquired on the west coast, both in looks and in germination health.

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Just the sort of thing I'm talking about... just look around- you'll find many people happy with their HSO seeds/grows (and some pissed of as well)... so if they have decent stuff, they really had no reason to ride the famed Humboldt name since they are not even based in America.

If the quality was equal- I'd much rather support breeders who aren't liars... or in this case "misleaders."

Vincent VonBlown said:

Breeders a rip off?

Well, okay look at it like this. Your average seed company, has about 50 strains they sell. which means more or less you have to have 50 females and 50 males (unless you use limited males, still 50 females though)

And to maintain these lines, you have to keep cloning, (and hold between 50 and a 100 mother plants)

So you have to keep growing and propigating constantly and keep constant track of 100 to 200 plants to make all these strains. And thats just to make seed, if you want smoke (that isn't all screwed up from seeding) you have to grow even more and keep track of even more.

It's hard for a person that isn't stoned all the time to keep track of all that. What do you think happens when your all buzzed up all the time, and maybe not that bright to begin with.

Click to expand...

...I'm afraid I don't quite understand the point here. Only a handful of breeders sell that many strains; the really talented ones work on 10-20, or so, magnificent strains.. that's not what we're getting at here. I mean to highlight the fact that many "breeders" put out lines that are deliberately named after somebody else's work; sometimes it's not so much a "rip-off" but others release strains under the same name without them even having semi-related parent lines. If they are growing 1000's of each parent line, then surely they would be interested in giving it a unique name so that they would be recognized for their hard work. I should have left "most" out of the title; there are plenty of great seed producers around, I just hate the fact that some up-and-comers can slap a couple random parent lines together, then the next thing you know 'their' "white widow" seeds available at The Attitude, or what have you. Nobody needs cheaper versions of old classic strains, we want new, quality works of dank in a bean.

most breeders of today with big line ups have 1 or 2 famous male that they use on multiple elite strains to create new polyhybrids... I dont think many breeders actually take the time to stabilize strains but I might be wrong. Keeping the great male around (which might have taken years to find) and using those elite clone females highly reduce the work load for them.

For example Subcool uses SpaceQueen ''spacedude'' in many projects and Jordan of the Island must have a great GodBud Male because most strains on his menu are GodBud crosses.

Jordan have been going all out with his GodBud male recently with many new strains on the menu. I cannot wait to try some of them but I am busy with my own work at the moment...

I have a nice stinky Chemo male going in the backyard that will be used in future breeding projects of mine... I am tempted to reveg it and keep it around for a while.

Bottom line is unless you are very well connected, breeders of today are no rip off as they have in their collection some fire genetics.

The breeders in Holland like Ben Drokers (sensi seeds) all seem to indorse, using high numbers for breeding selection. But I think it's actually the fact they can grow larger crops there and get away with it more so then using them for breeding.

And of course you can use, low numbers to breed with. All you need is one female and one male I guess ... But when your using polyhybrids, which most strains seem to be more less. There is definitely an advantage to going through as many as you can. <= Here's 2 flowering females from the same cross (4th back cross x UWM) flowered at the same time, at the same height... Both the parents are related bred plants, but still somewhat dissimilar. So, this is actually the first polyhybrid cross I've made from Wonder genetics... I have 10 different females flowering, and as the picture shows they have wild variation in their physical representation. All the plants are frosty and smell nice, and have excellent quality and potency... But no one will probably breed the plant on the left due to very small yield... Finding the big quick yielder that is of good quality is important to any breeding program.

Although the 4th back cross, is actually a stabilized plant, I am still categorizing it as unstable. Although the line does represent females similar to one another...

By rip-off I meant them riding each others' coattails.. the quality of the smoke depends largely on the growers themselves, the curing process & whether or not you have a good phenotype; quality is not what I was addressing. I mean "rip-off" as in how 'they' sell you one thing and tell you it's something else... that is indeed "ripping" one of, even if it's good- who cares i you didn't get what you were looking for. I mean if they weren't selling decent quality smoke then they probably wouldn't make it far as a breeder, but quality doesn't mean that it is what they say it is. I'm sure almost all strains have a 'keeper' pheno hidden in them somewhere but using another breeders' name is unnecessary.

Using more seedlings in the selection process just make the chances of getting a great(er) phenotype even higher; which is always a good thing since no strain is truly "true-breeding"... true-breeding strains, most of the time, breed true for certain traits; all varieties of cannabis exhibit variations, o matter how 'pure' they are to their landrace.