slowandsteady
Well-Known Member
Great thread guys, apprecate the comments. I'm an Old/newbie grower and info like this well justs plain ole helps when selecting seeds. thanks a mill guys. (and so far no trolls)?
Most breeders are a rip off.
- Thread starter |B3RNY|
- Start date
Jogro
Well-Known Member
A few points:
-The cannabis seed selling business is completely slimy. Yes, there are breeders with integrity, but there are quite a few "fly by night" operations, and even larger places with dubious practices. Part of this is fostered by the illegal/underground nature of the business, and isn't going to change until/unless there is massive cannabis law reform. There absolutely are larger commercial operations that sell the exact same seeds under different labels at different price points! .
-Even the breeders are are more or less "legitimate" have to compete in a market place laden with liars and crooks. What good does it do me to list my plant as having been tested (legitimately) at 18% THC, when house "X" is listing theirs as 24%, a number they pulled purely out of their butt? The same holds true of yields, flowering times, and even lineages. Even if you are a completely honest and scrupulous breeder, there is a lot of market pressure not to be entirely truthful or forthcoming. That's why even the better breeders are often vague about these things. . .they know they can vary quite a bit, and no matter how good their strains, with so many willing to lie, telling the truth about them can put them at a competitive disadvantage.
-Consequently, its still basically the "wild west" in terms of seed selling/breeding. Reputation matters. . .a lot.
-Not only do breeders steal names from each others well-known strains (applying them to different strains), but they outright steal entire strains, the rename them! If you're a buyer, the first thing is probably worse. The term "white widow" has been effectively diluted now to the point where its meaningless. There are probably what amount to 10+ entirely different lines with that name. If you're another breeder, the second thing is worse. . .you spend three years selectively breeding an awesome strain, then some clown buys your seeds, crosses them into an F1, and sells the resultant offspring as a totally different line!
Even under what might be termed "good" conditions, individual lines can "drift" with time. . .that's another issue/problem.
-I think the reputable breeders "could" detail the specific lineages of many of their strains, and some will do that on their respective internet sites, but frankly, probably 95%+ of the market doesn't care, so there is no point. If you really are interested in buying only strains with specifically estabished pedigrees, I think this is *possible*, assuming you do your homework and accept the more limited selection, though its not clear to me how really *useful* it is. I think you're better off just identifying the strains with the specific features you want, and proceeding from there.
-Probably 70%+ of strains ultimately contain lineages derived from Northern lights, Skunk #1, and Haze (and usually more than one). These three were the dominant strains of their time, and serve as building blocks for most of what's out there nowadays. Take various crosses of those, and then infuse in ruderalis genetics (for autoflowers), and/or tropical sativas (for flavor) and you've probably got 85% of modern strains. (Add in DJ Short's "Blueberry" and now you've got maybe 90% of them). The "problem" here is that many/most of the intermediate "strains" that were involved in the more recent ones are themselves of obscure lineage.
EG, "OG" and/or "Bubba Kush" genetics are probably in half of the stuff coming out of the West Coast, but so far as I know, there is no real agreement on what those lineages come from (I've heard NL#5 for BK).
-The term "strain" is highly overused. Many if not most so-called "strains" simply aren't. They're unstabilized hybrids, not true-breeding lines. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with hybrids per se, and in fact some of the most interesting plants are unstabilized hybrids, but to call these "strains" pushes the definition of the term. In other words, if you pull out a pack of seeds, and plant ten of them, and end up with five different phenotype offspring, how is that a "strain"?
Taking two strains you like, and crossing them to make an F1 is trivially easy. You can get excellent plants that way, and in fact many of the "breeders" do nothing more than offer these sorts of hybrids (under various names). But is it "breeding"? HECK no, and some use the derogatory term "pollen chucking" to refer to this sort of approach. "Breeding" by definition requires isolation of traits, and that requires both selection and stabilization.
Developing a truly novel strain typically takes 6+ generations, and growing plants from seeds though harvest with selections, means that this is typically a fully two year process. Proper selection requires picking from dozens if not hundreds of plants at a time, again, making TRUE breeding NOT something most growers can undertake.
Many so called "breeders" don't have the space, desire, or ability to TRULY develop new strains, let alone new strains that actually add something to the variety that's already out there. The internet is changing this, but largely unsophisticated buying public means that good marketing can replace good breeding.
-The cannabis seed selling business is completely slimy. Yes, there are breeders with integrity, but there are quite a few "fly by night" operations, and even larger places with dubious practices. Part of this is fostered by the illegal/underground nature of the business, and isn't going to change until/unless there is massive cannabis law reform. There absolutely are larger commercial operations that sell the exact same seeds under different labels at different price points! .
-Even the breeders are are more or less "legitimate" have to compete in a market place laden with liars and crooks. What good does it do me to list my plant as having been tested (legitimately) at 18% THC, when house "X" is listing theirs as 24%, a number they pulled purely out of their butt? The same holds true of yields, flowering times, and even lineages. Even if you are a completely honest and scrupulous breeder, there is a lot of market pressure not to be entirely truthful or forthcoming. That's why even the better breeders are often vague about these things. . .they know they can vary quite a bit, and no matter how good their strains, with so many willing to lie, telling the truth about them can put them at a competitive disadvantage.
-Consequently, its still basically the "wild west" in terms of seed selling/breeding. Reputation matters. . .a lot.
-Not only do breeders steal names from each others well-known strains (applying them to different strains), but they outright steal entire strains, the rename them! If you're a buyer, the first thing is probably worse. The term "white widow" has been effectively diluted now to the point where its meaningless. There are probably what amount to 10+ entirely different lines with that name. If you're another breeder, the second thing is worse. . .you spend three years selectively breeding an awesome strain, then some clown buys your seeds, crosses them into an F1, and sells the resultant offspring as a totally different line!
Even under what might be termed "good" conditions, individual lines can "drift" with time. . .that's another issue/problem.
-I think the reputable breeders "could" detail the specific lineages of many of their strains, and some will do that on their respective internet sites, but frankly, probably 95%+ of the market doesn't care, so there is no point. If you really are interested in buying only strains with specifically estabished pedigrees, I think this is *possible*, assuming you do your homework and accept the more limited selection, though its not clear to me how really *useful* it is. I think you're better off just identifying the strains with the specific features you want, and proceeding from there.
-Probably 70%+ of strains ultimately contain lineages derived from Northern lights, Skunk #1, and Haze (and usually more than one). These three were the dominant strains of their time, and serve as building blocks for most of what's out there nowadays. Take various crosses of those, and then infuse in ruderalis genetics (for autoflowers), and/or tropical sativas (for flavor) and you've probably got 85% of modern strains. (Add in DJ Short's "Blueberry" and now you've got maybe 90% of them). The "problem" here is that many/most of the intermediate "strains" that were involved in the more recent ones are themselves of obscure lineage.
EG, "OG" and/or "Bubba Kush" genetics are probably in half of the stuff coming out of the West Coast, but so far as I know, there is no real agreement on what those lineages come from (I've heard NL#5 for BK).
-The term "strain" is highly overused. Many if not most so-called "strains" simply aren't. They're unstabilized hybrids, not true-breeding lines. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with hybrids per se, and in fact some of the most interesting plants are unstabilized hybrids, but to call these "strains" pushes the definition of the term. In other words, if you pull out a pack of seeds, and plant ten of them, and end up with five different phenotype offspring, how is that a "strain"?
Taking two strains you like, and crossing them to make an F1 is trivially easy. You can get excellent plants that way, and in fact many of the "breeders" do nothing more than offer these sorts of hybrids (under various names). But is it "breeding"? HECK no, and some use the derogatory term "pollen chucking" to refer to this sort of approach. "Breeding" by definition requires isolation of traits, and that requires both selection and stabilization.
Developing a truly novel strain typically takes 6+ generations, and growing plants from seeds though harvest with selections, means that this is typically a fully two year process. Proper selection requires picking from dozens if not hundreds of plants at a time, again, making TRUE breeding NOT something most growers can undertake.
Many so called "breeders" don't have the space, desire, or ability to TRULY develop new strains, let alone new strains that actually add something to the variety that's already out there. The internet is changing this, but largely unsophisticated buying public means that good marketing can replace good breeding.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Its not "trolling", and no, not "everyone" knows how Sannie ships, let alone how everyone else does it.
Its etiquette and common courtesy NOT to discuss these things in public forums, even in vague terms.
Sannie, for example, has had so many problems getting seeds into the US from Holland, that he nearly stopped shipping to the USA altogether.
If you like his business, why make it potentially harder for him?
Jogro
Well-Known Member
"Caveat emptor".
Nirvana, I think by its own admission, sells ceeds* to other houses. This isn't the only place doing that, either.
I don't think there is anything wrong with that, per se, nor is there anything wrong with other companies buying mass-manufactured seeds.
It just comes down to knowing the market and knowing what you're getting.
The "fair market value" of anything is what people are willing to pay. Nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to pay $200 for a pack of "Doggie's Nuts".
I don't see anything wrong with ASKING $25/seed (a la Doggie's Nuts); it comes down to what you are actually willing to pay.
With that brand in particular, if you're savvy, you can get literally the exact same ceeds* in a pack with a different brand name on the label for 1/4 the price.
Again, caveat emptor.
*I'm spelling it "ceeds" because I've decided the rollitup auto-ad link to anything with the word s e e d in it is annoying!
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Are most breeders a "rip off"?
That depends on your perspective, but I'd say the following:
-Many if not most of the outfits selling ceeds aren't really "breeders". They're selling ceeds from lines other people developed, in some cases selling ceeds produced by third parties, or selling hybridized lines that haven't really been developed into true "strains".
-The number of TRUE breeders who are developing actual new and innovative strains is pretty small, but they are out there.
-That said, I don't think a strain really has to be "new" to be absolutely excellent. "Classic" strains like Northern lights, Skunk #1, Bubblegum, Blueberry, Purps, etc have all become "classics" for a reason. These are generally easy to grow, tough, good yielding, disease resistant, potent plants and even if they're not "fashionable" at the moment, they're still good choices for most growers.
-Many of the outfits selling ceeds don't offer a unique product; with many strains you can find either the exact same ceeds or highly similar ones in packs from any number of others at a variety of price points. Lots of "different" strains are ultimately more similar than different, too. So from that perspective, yes, some of the sellers are "rip offs" in the sense that you can get more or less equivalent genetics for less money than their asking price.
-There isn't a great correlation between price and quality (see the open threads on "most overrated strain" and "best sleeper"/"most underrated" strains). Some really pricey strains are hermie prone, hard to grow, poor yielding, or simply aren't really any better than less expensive ones. In contrast, there are any number of really excellent strains out there that just don't cost an arm and a leg.
-In my opinion, it absolutely is NOT necessary to spend a lot of money to get excellent genetics/strains.
That depends on your perspective, but I'd say the following:
-Many if not most of the outfits selling ceeds aren't really "breeders". They're selling ceeds from lines other people developed, in some cases selling ceeds produced by third parties, or selling hybridized lines that haven't really been developed into true "strains".
-The number of TRUE breeders who are developing actual new and innovative strains is pretty small, but they are out there.
-That said, I don't think a strain really has to be "new" to be absolutely excellent. "Classic" strains like Northern lights, Skunk #1, Bubblegum, Blueberry, Purps, etc have all become "classics" for a reason. These are generally easy to grow, tough, good yielding, disease resistant, potent plants and even if they're not "fashionable" at the moment, they're still good choices for most growers.
-Many of the outfits selling ceeds don't offer a unique product; with many strains you can find either the exact same ceeds or highly similar ones in packs from any number of others at a variety of price points. Lots of "different" strains are ultimately more similar than different, too. So from that perspective, yes, some of the sellers are "rip offs" in the sense that you can get more or less equivalent genetics for less money than their asking price.
-There isn't a great correlation between price and quality (see the open threads on "most overrated strain" and "best sleeper"/"most underrated" strains). Some really pricey strains are hermie prone, hard to grow, poor yielding, or simply aren't really any better than less expensive ones. In contrast, there are any number of really excellent strains out there that just don't cost an arm and a leg.
-In my opinion, it absolutely is NOT necessary to spend a lot of money to get excellent genetics/strains.
MetalBox
Member
Where I live growers are the ones taking most of the risk, every night on the news growers get busted, literally every night, yet Steve, the local crook who owns the local dispensary is widely known for skirting the law and nobody does anything. The city has just written him several polite letters asking him to close his store or move locations, neither of which he intends to do, not only that but they are proud of it. Police dont bust down his door with guns, I dont feel like he is taking the risks that most of the growers he buys from. He makes most of the money, assumes little of the risk and definately does least amount of effort (especially since he doesnt even bother showing up to work anymore and just has his mom run it). Anyways like the rest of the medical system and most other systems in America everyone is trying to make money doing as little as possible and just relying on spillage of funds from redundancies and inefficiencies within the system. Why just pay the X-ray technition when you can pay everyone who works at the hospital, right?
Edit this is responding to something on page two, crap I didnt see a third page...
Edit this is responding to something on page two, crap I didnt see a third page...
hazey grapes
Well-Known Member
you can even get different results from CUTTINGS. according to cannabible, chemdog has multiple personality disorder and behaves very differently under different circumstances. environment should never be dismissed for it's effect on plants either. just make them gals happy!
|B3RNY|
Well-Known Member
Getting some awesome replies here. I have since changed my perspective, I wish I had not titled it "MOST breeders are a rip-off" because there's many good quality breeders out there as well. I do not believe (at all) that a strain must be new to be great; I was mostly pissed off about breeders who sell their own "version" of classic strains that contain completely different genetics than the strain they claim it is. It makes no sense that they'd want to sell "imitations" to ride the glory of a classic/famous strain because usually- if you want a legendary strain then you're most likely going to get it from the breeder whom you believe to have originally released said strain.
I would also like to throw out an honorable mention to breeders I've been happy with (even though some of them are guilty of these 'crimes' as well):
*Serious Seeds (serious quality)
*Emerald Triangle (some good stuff from those guys)
*Reserva Privada (real connoisseur stuff)
*DNA Genetics (trendy, but good nonetheless)
*TH Seeds (creators of several legends: MK Ultra, etc.)
*World of Seeds (these guys are really good. they also sell good landraces)
*Gage Green (some of the most exotic stuff out there)
There are more but these have been some of the most reliable for me.
I would also like to throw out an honorable mention to breeders I've been happy with (even though some of them are guilty of these 'crimes' as well):
*Serious Seeds (serious quality)
*Emerald Triangle (some good stuff from those guys)
*Reserva Privada (real connoisseur stuff)
*DNA Genetics (trendy, but good nonetheless)
*TH Seeds (creators of several legends: MK Ultra, etc.)
*World of Seeds (these guys are really good. they also sell good landraces)
*Gage Green (some of the most exotic stuff out there)
There are more but these have been some of the most reliable for me.
This is very true. I had a whorled phyllotaxy I took clones from, two got the whorled phyllotaxy trait, 3 didn't - such is life.
I have to say, I personally think that taking from other breeders is not necessarily a totally bad thing. Example being, seeds that fall of the face of the earth because a breed shuts down - like Heath Robbinson. But anyways, that's just my opinion.
cues
Well-Known Member
I don't know about the rest of the world but the law in the UK is a bit weird on this.
Seeds are legal to posess, supply and buy as long as you don't germinate them.
Not being a 'recognised' plant means that you cannot copyright a varieties name.
There is actually nothing stopping you buying a pack of seeds, growing out a male and female then selling the seeds as your own under either the original or a new name. Only the growing would be illegal!
Apparently we sold the rights to grow weed to gwpharma to make sativex!
But we are a weird country with a weird legal system involving guys that wear wigs.
Seeds are legal to posess, supply and buy as long as you don't germinate them.
Not being a 'recognised' plant means that you cannot copyright a varieties name.
There is actually nothing stopping you buying a pack of seeds, growing out a male and female then selling the seeds as your own under either the original or a new name. Only the growing would be illegal!
Apparently we sold the rights to grow weed to gwpharma to make sativex!
But we are a weird country with a weird legal system involving guys that wear wigs.
MetalBox
Member
yes you can get different results if you grow it differently, but it is an EXACT genetic clone of the parent and will grow the same in the same conditions. Sure under different conditions it will grow differently, but that is the conditions, not the strain itself. I can stunt the crap outta my plants with cold or whatever, and they will turn out dramatically different than I grow them now, but if I expose that same (clone) strain to those same conditions I'll get the same results.
ps those guys selling the cannabible and the marijuana horticulture bible are honestly just looking to fill up pages so they can sell you a fat book full of shit they want you to buy. There is some good stuff to be learned from these books but not everything in there is gold by a longshot.
SFguy
Well-Known Member
can i get a link. i couldnt find it in the search...
Jogro
Well-Known Member
If you understand the business, this sort of line theft makes perfect sense.
Most people buying seeds simply aren't that knowledgeable. They don't know jack about genetics or breeding, and they actually know quite little about strains or the ceed business. This applies (and I think, especially so) to rubes who read cannabis magazines and or superficially skim the internet and THINK they know something. The amount of misinformation out there is staggering.
Legal issues make it difficult for breeders to advertise their lines in conventional ways. That's one reason, for example, why the average seed buyer, the height of sophistication is buying whatever strain/s won the High Times Cannabis cup last year. The Cannabis cup is the ultimate way to advertise strains.
Anyway, developing interest in a strain can be difficult, and once there is commercial interest in a strain, that provides all kinds of incentive for breeders (scrupulous or not) to try and grab some of the market share of that strain by copying/stealing the genetics of the strain, or the name (or both).
For example, why else would there be a strain called "AK-48"? Kind of reminds me of that old Simpsons gag:
At least some of the "homage" strains use sort of tongue-in-cheek names (like Nirvana's "Jock Horror") to indicate that they are knock offs.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
hazey grapes
Well-Known Member
you haven't read CB yet then. maybe half or more of the strains dude reports on are pure unobtanium by indie growers like us he's networked with. i wouldn't put it past anyone to offer some cannabis cup style pro quid pro blessing for some spending money, but the reports sounded pretty reasonable and lined up with my own experiences with the strains i have tried myself.
i'd be much more cautious about "the big book of buds" as it looks too much like a high times production.
there sure is way too much greed in weed overall though. there's always going to be growers in it for the love though.
|B3RNY|
Well-Known Member
I agree with you man, to a degree; +Rep for the response. I appreciate the fact that Nirvana switches the names up a little bit, at least. That could help give a person an idea of what the strain might be like. I'm just afraid of the name-stealing more so because some great, classic strains will be even more watered down than they are now. Like most of the more 'generic' (<--for lack of better word) breeders will sell F2 seeds of a good strain, I don't mind that so much because they're at least using the real bloodline of the strain/name they intend to sell it under. I.e. "White Widow" with the lineage of Haze X Skunk X Northern Lights, I am speaking of Dinafem; their seeds (even the White Widow imposter) are pretty damn good, especially to be feminized... but they should have chosen a completely new name for that cross because most growers know White Widow as Brazilian X South Indian. They have a strain called "Super Silver" that is of the same exact listed lineage (Haze X Skunk X Northern Lights), but they at least changed the name a little bit by dropping the "Haze"; ironically that really is the lineage of Super Silver Haze though, if I'm not mistaken.
I know that Serious Seeds trademarked the Ak47 name, which is why no "imposter-breeders" sell pure Ak47 seeds, only Ak47 crosses.. it's suppose to be the only strain name that is trademarked; I wonder why more breeders don't do that?? with their strains (or at least their strain names, because I know names/words can easily be trademarked.)
|B3RNY|
Well-Known Member
With all of this said, I would like to stress the fact that I am making a non-biased observation and that I do not at all believe that price always reflects quality. I believe that every strain that is sold through a seed bank must be at least decent, especially if you find a good phenotype- of course... or else, they probably would not be out there. I have found some gems inside packs from Nirvana, Greenhouse, Dinafem, G13 Labs and other lower priced seeds. I've grown from great breeders and the up-and-comers alike, from Alphakronik to World of Seeds, it don't have to be the "real deal" to be good, but I personally prefer trying to get the genetics that I believe to be "authentic." I've grown a few fakes that weren't too shab but I would have appreciated them more if they had their own name.
Names are somewhat important to me, yes... I like to collect seeds and clones, etc. I think of them as almost like trading cards or something.. I store a few from every strain I grow, as well as any bag seeds I get out of really good smoke, label 'em, date 'em, etc.. it's just fun for me to collect the shit.
Names are somewhat important to me, yes... I like to collect seeds and clones, etc. I think of them as almost like trading cards or something.. I store a few from every strain I grow, as well as any bag seeds I get out of really good smoke, label 'em, date 'em, etc.. it's just fun for me to collect the shit.
ottomatik
Well-Known Member
I think that would be fun too, but isn't the shelf life only a few years?