RastaMonsta
Active Member
so how do outdoor growers do it with temps at 130 and only 400 ppm? im confused.
Myth busters - the real truth on CO2 in indoor grows
- Thread starter desertrat
- Start date
desertrat
Well-Known Member
Not much grown at 130 that I know about. All strains i know die indoors at temps way below that
RastaMonsta
Active Member
isnt it the same indoor or outdoor.if a plant grows outdoors at 130 degrees, why wouldnt it grow indoors at 130? with a constant flow of air and good water the plants wouldnt sirvive?
fred flintstoned
Well-Known Member
Yeah that^!!
JJ Bones
Member
Only thing I disagree with is number two. I understand your point regarding new growers shouldn't just go out and spend a bunch of money on CO2 expecting miraculous results. We definitely have to keep up with the plant and cannot rely on CO2 to grow the plant for us, as growers. However it will definitely improve your plants growth.
As far as costs for CO2, it can get costly. There is a great product called Green Pad CO2 generators that are basically small or large pads that will spread CO2 to your garden with 35-50% humidity environments or by simply spraying water onto them. About $30 for a pack of 5. They last for one week, although it's a much more inexpensive alternative to the tank.
As far as costs for CO2, it can get costly. There is a great product called Green Pad CO2 generators that are basically small or large pads that will spread CO2 to your garden with 35-50% humidity environments or by simply spraying water onto them. About $30 for a pack of 5. They last for one week, although it's a much more inexpensive alternative to the tank.
RastaMonsta
Active Member
desertrat, my tent is 90 cubic feet.your room is like 4 times as big as mine. i think if i can get the temps down to about 90 i should be ok with just one of the formula's uve made.im working on a couple things to get the temps down. my tent is supposed to have exhuast of at least 108 cfm. i only have 50cfm. so mayb that hott air is not being exchanged fast enuff.im going to try and get a better exhuast.even tough rite now the co2 would be literally trapped in there due to not having a strong enuff exhuast.im not looking to use the co2 to make my grow faster, or yield more. i want to use it to give my plants a fresh breath of oxygen to keep them from dying
legalizeitcanada
Well-Known Member
Hey Rasta Monster, what kinda lights you using. What is the cause of your high temps? is it in an attic or is it your lights causing the heat?
RastaMonsta
Active Member
the attic is my problem. temps get up to 105 degrees.ive been working on this for weeks trying to get the attic to drop at least 10-15 degrees. Im thinking of blasting my room with as much co2 as possible on a healthy rate + alot of water and air circulation.
RastaMonsta
Active Member
o im using 2 80 watt t12 shop lights + 92 watts of cfl bulbs.252 watts i think would be more then enuff for 2 medium sized plants in a scrog. now check this out when i got these readings at 105 degrees only one of the 80 t12 lights was on. i didnt have the other 172 watts on. its gonna be hotterr than hell with all my lights.
desertrat
Well-Known Member
1) Pre-requisites
..a) Optimal conditions (water, nutes, light, temperature, humidity, medium, container, ph, insects, etc). don’t mess with co2 if you haven’t dialed in all of your other growing conditions.
..b) Temperature control with non-venting room. practically speaking , this means running an air conditioner in almost all grow situations with enhanced co2. Don’t bother with co2 if you have to vent your room regularly to maintain temps because that wastes too much co2 to make this worthwhile.
..c) You need good in room air movement to circulate the co2 that tends to pool on the floor.
..d) Don’t enhance with co2 if you have a female within a month of harvest – added co2 seems to reduce potency as I can personally attest to after these tests. EDIT - just test smoked some and it's very potent, but there are noticeably fewer visible trichomes.
2) Economics: it cost me $38 to start up and $1.30 per day to operate a fermentation system to get 1500 ppm in a 384 cubic foot room. Your costs will be roughly proportional to the size of your room vs. mine. So if your room is 800 cubic feet then your costs will be about $2.50 per day and $75 to start up.
3) Purchase/scrounge for:
..a) jar of Fleischmann's active dry yeast. one jar will last awhile:
..b) co2 test kit with four extra testers.
http://www.discount-hydro.com/productdisp.php?pid=325&navid=30
..c) Granulated sugar in 10 lb or larger bags (you’ll be using a pound or more of sugar per day.
..d) At least 3 containers, see set up for specifics.
4) set up
..a) Take measurements of your grow room volume by taking height times width times depth to get cubic feet.
..b) Sorry for all of the math, but it’s the only way to do this right.
.....i) use the amount of sugar needed per 100 cubic feet as 1.3 pound of sugar per 100 cubic feet. That figure was determined experimentally.
....ii) X is the total amount of sugar needed and is calculated by taking 1.3 above times a (room size in cubic feet) above, then divide by 100 to get pounds of sugar needed for your grow space. If you don’t have a scale, one pound of sugar is approximately 2 cups.
....iii) Y is the amount of water needed. it was determined experimentally that you need 0.75 gallons of water per pound of sugar. Multiply X times .75 to get gallons of water needed.
....iv) Z is the amount of yeast needed. It was determined experimentally that you need 12 grams of yeast per pound of sugar. Multiply X times 12 to get grams of yeast to use. if you don’t have a scale, 10 grams is approximately one heaping tablespoon.
....v) divide each of X, Y and Z by three and you have the amount of ingredients you’ll be adding each day after start up. You’re going to want containers that can ideally hold one day’s worth of ingredients although with my room size it was more convenient to have two containers added/subtracted per day.
..c) prepare containers. You can use an open container but I find it helpful and reassuring to be able to see the fermentation happening. You can either purchase an air lock from a brewery store
or build one like I did with a little left over irrigation hosing, some glue and a couple of little bottles. Drill holes in the lid of the fermentation container and the bottom of the air trap and glue a piece of tubing between the two.
..d) initial charging – take 2/3 of the ingredients and place in 2/3 of containers as follows.
....i) Take 2/3 of Y hot tap water and place in microwaveable bowl. Place in microwave on high for 4 minutes.
....ii) Take 2/3 of X sugar and dissolve completely in hot water.
....iii) Pour sugar water into 2/3 of your containers
....iv) Add 2/3 of Z yeast evenly into containers
....v) Put on lids, SHAKE VIGOROUSLY FOR 30 SECONDS, fill air lock with water and place containers in grow room.
..e) Verify fermentation by observing bubbles forming in water trap after a couple of hours– a large bubble every 15 seconds is typical.
5) continued operation
..a) on the second day add 1/3 of everything so that now the room has a total of X sugar, Y water and Z yeast.
..b) After that, every day rotate in 1/3 of total sugar and water plus 5 grams of new yeast and take out oldest 1/3. (Easiest to do with 3 or 6 equal sized containers). You’ll be reusing the yeast which tends to settle to the bottom of the container. Carefully pour out the old solution leaving the sludge and a little liquid in the bottom. You’ll be mixing in micro-waved hot sugar water each day to the oldest container.
..c) test co2 levels after several days to adjust for passive room venting (don’t breath on tester, don’t test room where you’ve been hanging out a lot. If the co2 measures anywhere between 1,000 ppm and 2,000 ppm then leave it alone (the tester is not very precise, and is difficult to read, but it sure is cheap). If the measured co2 is above 2,000 or below 1,000, you’ll want to adjust the mixture proportionately.
..d) Example – after running for a week you tested the co2 and got below 1000 ppm. If you’ve witnessed sufficient fermentation happening, your room is probably passively venting a lot more air than you think. First seek out all major air leaks and make sure no equipment is actively venting. If there were no problems there you’ll need to increase your fermentation ingredients to make up for the shortfall. Increase your ingredients by 33% and retest the air in four or five days. If your concentrations are above 2000 ppm, try reducing the ingredients by 33% and retest the air.
6) Comparison of providing CO2 by different methods (without a co2 monitor/controller):
Co2 system........cost per day....... Start up cost.......convenience
fermentation.......$1.30....................$38 .................10 minutes per day, everything available at local stores.
tank...................$0.67..................$412..................Must stop by hydro or welding shop.
dry ice................$0.28....................$32..................Available but requires frequent visits, hard to control concentrations
propane..............$0.26...................$467..................Locally available, heating of grow room can be a problem.
Start up costs for fermentation include the co2 tester and ingredients.
Start up costs for tanks include the tank, regulator and co2 tester.
Start up costs for dry ice include ingredients and the co2 tester.
Start up costs for propane include the tank, burner and co2 tester.
..a) Optimal conditions (water, nutes, light, temperature, humidity, medium, container, ph, insects, etc). don’t mess with co2 if you haven’t dialed in all of your other growing conditions.
..b) Temperature control with non-venting room. practically speaking , this means running an air conditioner in almost all grow situations with enhanced co2. Don’t bother with co2 if you have to vent your room regularly to maintain temps because that wastes too much co2 to make this worthwhile.
..c) You need good in room air movement to circulate the co2 that tends to pool on the floor.
..d) Don’t enhance with co2 if you have a female within a month of harvest – added co2 seems to reduce potency as I can personally attest to after these tests. EDIT - just test smoked some and it's very potent, but there are noticeably fewer visible trichomes.
2) Economics: it cost me $38 to start up and $1.30 per day to operate a fermentation system to get 1500 ppm in a 384 cubic foot room. Your costs will be roughly proportional to the size of your room vs. mine. So if your room is 800 cubic feet then your costs will be about $2.50 per day and $75 to start up.
3) Purchase/scrounge for:
..a) jar of Fleischmann's active dry yeast. one jar will last awhile:
..b) co2 test kit with four extra testers.
http://www.discount-hydro.com/productdisp.php?pid=325&navid=30
..c) Granulated sugar in 10 lb or larger bags (you’ll be using a pound or more of sugar per day.
..d) At least 3 containers, see set up for specifics.
4) set up
..a) Take measurements of your grow room volume by taking height times width times depth to get cubic feet.
..b) Sorry for all of the math, but it’s the only way to do this right.
.....i) use the amount of sugar needed per 100 cubic feet as 1.3 pound of sugar per 100 cubic feet. That figure was determined experimentally.
....ii) X is the total amount of sugar needed and is calculated by taking 1.3 above times a (room size in cubic feet) above, then divide by 100 to get pounds of sugar needed for your grow space. If you don’t have a scale, one pound of sugar is approximately 2 cups.
....iii) Y is the amount of water needed. it was determined experimentally that you need 0.75 gallons of water per pound of sugar. Multiply X times .75 to get gallons of water needed.
....iv) Z is the amount of yeast needed. It was determined experimentally that you need 12 grams of yeast per pound of sugar. Multiply X times 12 to get grams of yeast to use. if you don’t have a scale, 10 grams is approximately one heaping tablespoon.
....v) divide each of X, Y and Z by three and you have the amount of ingredients you’ll be adding each day after start up. You’re going to want containers that can ideally hold one day’s worth of ingredients although with my room size it was more convenient to have two containers added/subtracted per day.
..c) prepare containers. You can use an open container but I find it helpful and reassuring to be able to see the fermentation happening. You can either purchase an air lock from a brewery store
or build one like I did with a little left over irrigation hosing, some glue and a couple of little bottles. Drill holes in the lid of the fermentation container and the bottom of the air trap and glue a piece of tubing between the two.
..d) initial charging – take 2/3 of the ingredients and place in 2/3 of containers as follows.
....i) Take 2/3 of Y hot tap water and place in microwaveable bowl. Place in microwave on high for 4 minutes.
....ii) Take 2/3 of X sugar and dissolve completely in hot water.
....iii) Pour sugar water into 2/3 of your containers
....iv) Add 2/3 of Z yeast evenly into containers
....v) Put on lids, SHAKE VIGOROUSLY FOR 30 SECONDS, fill air lock with water and place containers in grow room.
..e) Verify fermentation by observing bubbles forming in water trap after a couple of hours– a large bubble every 15 seconds is typical.
5) continued operation
..a) on the second day add 1/3 of everything so that now the room has a total of X sugar, Y water and Z yeast.
..b) After that, every day rotate in 1/3 of total sugar and water plus 5 grams of new yeast and take out oldest 1/3. (Easiest to do with 3 or 6 equal sized containers). You’ll be reusing the yeast which tends to settle to the bottom of the container. Carefully pour out the old solution leaving the sludge and a little liquid in the bottom. You’ll be mixing in micro-waved hot sugar water each day to the oldest container.
..c) test co2 levels after several days to adjust for passive room venting (don’t breath on tester, don’t test room where you’ve been hanging out a lot. If the co2 measures anywhere between 1,000 ppm and 2,000 ppm then leave it alone (the tester is not very precise, and is difficult to read, but it sure is cheap). If the measured co2 is above 2,000 or below 1,000, you’ll want to adjust the mixture proportionately.
..d) Example – after running for a week you tested the co2 and got below 1000 ppm. If you’ve witnessed sufficient fermentation happening, your room is probably passively venting a lot more air than you think. First seek out all major air leaks and make sure no equipment is actively venting. If there were no problems there you’ll need to increase your fermentation ingredients to make up for the shortfall. Increase your ingredients by 33% and retest the air in four or five days. If your concentrations are above 2000 ppm, try reducing the ingredients by 33% and retest the air.
6) Comparison of providing CO2 by different methods (without a co2 monitor/controller):
Co2 system........cost per day....... Start up cost.......convenience
fermentation.......$1.30....................$38 .................10 minutes per day, everything available at local stores.
tank...................$0.67..................$412..................Must stop by hydro or welding shop.
dry ice................$0.28....................$32..................Available but requires frequent visits, hard to control concentrations
propane..............$0.26...................$467..................Locally available, heating of grow room can be a problem.
Start up costs for fermentation include the co2 tester and ingredients.
Start up costs for tanks include the tank, regulator and co2 tester.
Start up costs for dry ice include ingredients and the co2 tester.
Start up costs for propane include the tank, burner and co2 tester.
IAm5toned
Well-Known Member
i love your avatar.... isnt that one of the Fabulous Furry Freak Bros?
desertrat
Well-Known Member
Without the trap you can't tell if the mix is fermenting except for very little bubbles on surface of water. Also, the mix smells like baking bread and you may not want that smell in your grow room. But the air trap is not mandatory to make this work.
desertrat
Well-Known Member
Co2 is not very poisonous unlike carbon monoxide. You can take several times the amount of co2 that you're producing before it's a problem.
rzza
Well-Known Member
Basic Information about Concentrations of CO2 in Air
- <LI class=LI_Spaced>1,000,000 ppm of a gas = 100 % concentration of the gas, and 10,000 ppm of a gas in air = a 1% concentration. <LI class=LI_Spaced>At 1% concentration of carbon dioxide CO2 (10,000 parts per million or ppm) and under continuous exposure at that level, such as in an auditorium filled with occupants and poor fresh air ventilation, some occupants are likely to feel drowsy. <LI class=LI_Spaced>The concentration of carbon dioxide must be over about 2% (20,000 ppm) before most people are aware of its presence unless the odor of an associated material (auto exhaust or fermenting yeast, for instance) is present at lower concentrations. <LI class=LI_Spaced>Above 2%, carbon dioxide may cause a feeling of heaviness in the chest and/or more frequent and deeper respirations. <LI class=LI_Spaced>If exposure continues at that level for several hours, minimal "acidosis" (an acid condition of the blood) may occur but more frequently is absent. <LI class=LI_Spaced>Breathing rate doubles at 3% CO2 and is four times the normal rate at 5% CO2.
- Toxic levels of carbon dioxide: at levels above 5%, concentration CO2 is directly toxic. [At lower levels we may be seeing effects of a reduction in the relative amount of oxygen rather than direct toxicity of CO2.]
riddleme
Well-Known Member
Seems like I read that over 5000 ppm is dangerous to humans?
desertrat
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the detail and quote. So 5% = 5000 ppm is a problem but if you overshoot 1500 ppm and end up in the two thousands it's not going to hurt you much.
rzza
Well-Known Member
maybe just grow a third arm or something ...