#NRAlogic

deprave

New Member
You believe the assault weapons ban resulted in less homicides? A VERY small percentage of murders are from rifles period or any new gun that would be effected by this new ban or the previous. Also a VERY small percentage of gun murders are done by law abiding gun owners. These conclusions are based on DOJ statistics. There is a lot of law enforcement that will cite that they have NEVER investigated a gun murder where the gun was NOT obtained illegally or even arrested a law abiding gun owner involved in a gun crime and again DOJ statistics back this up.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
Here is the quote that London thinks is some kind of fact, emphasis added so that stupid people can see where the problem lies.



And it was STATE to boot, not federal like London states it is.

In other words: London told a big fat lie.

Again.


Edit: And I wanted to add:
somebody need to read the whole overview ...we will wait
 

kpmarine

Well-Known Member
The first thing I notice was the drastic drop in homicides when the ban came into play. I do notice that it did stay pretty leveled after the ban expired. Now do we logically think that this low rate will stay the same after the ban is lifted for 10 years ?? The run on guns did not even start until after Barrack Obama became our POTUS, so its really to early to tell seeing how the run on guns just started. I myself feel the ban worked by proof of the chart you supplied. The drop is incredible from 1995-2005, which brought us to the lower numbers of 2010.

The whole point of gun control with banning certain firearms and mag restrictions are to lower the number of deaths caused by firearms. Its crazy to even think that allowing anyone to carry a 30+ mag will REDUCE deaths. Please show me the logic in that. James Holmes had an AR-15 (100 round mag drum), a Remington 870 shotgun and a 40 caliber glock handgun. They recovered 209 live AR-15 rounds and 15 .40 caliber handgun round, also another 33 shots were used to killed 12 people and unknown amount that injured 54 more. We actually got lucky more did not die. Now do you say to prevent this EVERYONE should be able to carry this or do you say we need to ban some of this shit. I vote for the latter of the two.
Keep in mind, the Virginia Tech shooting was done with nothing but a .22 walther pistol (10rd mag) and a Glock 19 (15rd mag). The only thing that kept him from firing the last 200+ rounds he had was the bullet he put in his own brain. With 2 pistols that had capacities in the range of 15% of those 100rd mags you are talking about in that AR15, the shooter nearly tripled the amount of people killed. It's the deadliest mass shooting in recent US history, and it was done with nothing but comparatively small magazines, and not one of those weapons in the ban were used.

As another point of consideration, about 80% of the homicides with a firearm were committed with a handgun between 1993 and 2001. In that same time period, rifles were used in about 5% of gun homicides. Meaning, if there was a drop in gun homicide during that period of any significance, wouldn't it have to be primarily handguns? I would question whether it was a reduction due to the weapons restricted, or some other factor like gun dealers and owners getting concerned about their image as a whole.

www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/wuvc01.pdf <----The Bureau of Justice report that contains the stats I mentioned. Realized I left that out on accident.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
You believe the assault weapons ban resulted in less homicides? A VERY small percentage of murders are from rifles period or any new gun that would be effected by this new ban or the previous. Also a VERY small percentage of gun murders are done by law abiding gun owners. These conclusions are based on DOJ statistics. There is a lot of law enforcement that will cite that they have NEVER investigated a gun murder where the gun was NOT obtained illegally or even arrested a law abiding gun owner involved in a gun crime and again DOJ statistics back this up.
so you feel the federal weapons ban of 1994 made no difference ????
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
Keep in mind, the Virginia Tech shooting was done with nothing but a .22 walther pistol (10rd mag) and a Glock 19 (15rd mag). The only thing that kept him from firing the last 200+ rounds he had was the bullet he put in his own brain. With 2 pistols that had capacities in the range of 15% of those 100rd mags you are talking about in that AR15, the shooter doubled the amount of people killed. It's the deadliest mass shooting in recent history, and it was done with nothing but comparatively small magazines, and not one of those weapons in the ban were used.

As another point of consideration, about 80% of the homicides with a firearm were committed with a handgun between 1993 and 2001. In that same time period, rifles were used in about 5% of gun homicides. Meaning, if there was a drop in gun homicide during that period of any significance, wouldn't it have to be primarily handguns? I would question whether it was a reduction due to the weapons restricted, or some other factor like gun dealers and owners getting concerned about their image as a whole.
umm the g19 would be a no-no with that mag...Is your argument no gun control, because he used handguns ???:roll:
 

deprave

New Member
are you going to answer the question. So you feel the Weapons Ban of 1994 made no difference ???
Lets pretend for a momment that its possible to remove a simple tool from a country.

if we banned machettes would people still be killed by knives? yes

If we banned all knives would people still be killed by knives? yes occasionaly from knives smuggled in. (remember in this scenario we are able to remove tools from society magically)

Now to the important question.

If we banned all knives would people still be killed? Yes and probably the exact same amount of people.
 

kpmarine

Well-Known Member
umm the g19 would be a no-no with that mag...Is your argument no gun control, because he used handguns ???:roll:
Why exactly would that mag be a no-no? Either way, my point was magazine capacity is irrelevant unless you make it a fixed magazine. Notice how a guy managed to end substantially more lives with substantially smaller magazines?

I tried to take this seriously, but you apparently don't feel like actually addressing my points. As emphasized by your assumption that I must be opposed to all gun control. Get back to me when you feel like actually forming a rebuttal.
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
I notice the drop and I notice when the drop was drastic. Look at your chart and tell me what 5 years did it drop the most ???
lol @comparing Birmingham to Chicago ... different beast
Oh I know, the drop increased during that time period. You are talking about a very very very small fraction of a percentage of murders that took place with the guns that were banned.

You must not really know anything about Birmingham Al. B'ham and Detroit are comparable. Can I compare Detroit to Chicago?
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Lets pretend for a momment that its possible to remove a simple tool from a country.

if we banned machettes would people still be killed by knives? yes

If we banned all knives would people still be killed by knives? yes occasionaly from knives smuggled in. (remember in this scenario we are able to remove tools from society magically)

Now to the important question.

If we banned all knives would people still be killed? Yes and probably the exact same amount of people.
That would never happen, we have laws banning murder and assault.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
somebody need to read the whole overview ...we will wait
Read the whole thing. Based upon guesses and nothing else. BTW Absolutely NOTHING you claimed it says does it actually say. The next time you claim something, you might want to ensure it actually claims what you claim it claims. Nothing makes you look like an idiot as much as using something as proof only to have it prove you wrong.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
You believe the assault weapons ban resulted in less homicides? A VERY small percentage of murders are from rifles period or any new gun that would be effected by this new ban or the previous. Also a VERY small percentage of gun murders are done by law abiding gun owners. These conclusions are based on DOJ statistics. There is a lot of law enforcement that will cite that they have NEVER investigated a gun murder where the gun was NOT obtained illegally or even arrested a law abiding gun owner involved in a gun crime and again DOJ statistics back this up.
http://www.factcheck.org/2013/02/did-the-1994-assault-weapons-ban-work/
I kinda like this unbiased report. It starts by saying both sides cherry pick stats. Read and tell me what you think ..hell let me cut/paste key parts.

Koper, Jan. 14: What we found in these studies was that the ban had mixed effects in reducing crimes with the banned weaponry due to various exemptions that were written into the law. And as a result, the ban did not appear to effect gun violence during the time it was in effect. But there is some evidence to suggest that it may have modestly reduced shootings had it been in effect for a longer period

And here is the part that LaPierre highlights:
Koper, Jan 14: In general we found, really, very, very little evidence, almost none, that gun violence was becoming any less lethal or any less injurious during this time frame. So on balance, we concluded that the ban had not had a discernible impact on gun crime during the years it was in effect.
But Koper went on to say that an assault weapons ban &#8220;could potentially produce at least a small reduction in shootings&#8221; if allowed to remain in place for a longer time frame.
Koper, Jan. 14: The grandfathering provisions in the law meant that the effects of the law would occur only very gradually over time. It seems that those effects were still unfolding when the ban was lifted, and indeed they may not have been fully realized for several more years into the future even if the ban had been extended in 2004.

The evidence is too limited for any firm projections, but it does suggest that long term restrictions on these guns and magazines could potentially produce at least a small reduction in shootings.
Other studies, he said, have suggested attacks with semiautomatic guns &#8211; particularly those having large magazines &#8211; &#8220;result in more shots fired, persons hit and wounds inflicted than do attacks with other guns and magazines.&#8221; Another study of handgun attacks in Jersey City during the 1990s, he said, &#8220;estimated that incidents involving more than 10 shots fired accounted for between 4 and 5 percent of the total gunshot victims in the sample.&#8221;
Koper, Jan. 14: So, using that as a very tentative guide, that&#8217;s high enough to suggest that eliminating or greatly reducing crimes with these magazines could produce a small reduction in shootings, likely something less than 5 percent. Now we should note that effects of this magnitude could be hard to ever measure in any very definitive way, but they nonetheless could have nontrivial, notable benefits for society. Consider, for example, at our current level of our gun violence, achieving a 1 percent reduction in fatal and non-fatal criminal shootings would prevent approximately 650 shootings annually &#8230; And, of course having these sorts of guns, and particularly magazines, less accessible to offenders could make it more difficult for them to commit the sorts of mass shootings that we&#8217;ve seen in recent years.&#8221;

Koper concluded by saying that &#8220;a new ban on large capacity magazines and assault weapons would certainly not be a panacea for gun crime, but it may help to prevent further spread of particularly dangerous weaponry and eventually bring small reductions in some of the most serious and costly gun crimes.&#8221;
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
Read the whole thing. Based upon guesses and nothing else. BTW Absolutely NOTHING you claimed it says does it actually say. The next time you claim something, you might want to ensure it actually claims what you claim it claims. Nothing makes you look like an idiot as much as using something as proof only to have it prove you wrong.
nothing makes you look more like an idiot then when you claim you did something when you have not...we will still wait
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
http://www.factcheck.org/2013/02/did-the-1994-assault-weapons-ban-work/
I kinda like this unbiased report. It starts by saying both sides cherry pick stats. Read and tell me what you think ..hell let me cut/paste key parts.

Koper, Jan. 14: What we found in these studies was that the ban had mixed effects in reducing crimes with the banned weaponry due to various exemptions that were written into the law. And as a result, the ban did not appear to effect gun violence during the time it was in effect. But there is some evidence to suggest that it may have modestly reduced shootings had it been in effect for a longer period

And here is the part that LaPierre highlights:
Koper, Jan 14: In general we found, really, very, very little evidence, almost none, that gun violence was becoming any less lethal or any less injurious during this time frame. So on balance, we concluded that the ban had not had a discernible impact on gun crime during the years it was in effect.
But Koper went on to say that an assault weapons ban &#8220;could potentially produce at least a small reduction in shootings&#8221; if allowed to remain in place for a longer time frame.
Koper, Jan. 14: The grandfathering provisions in the law meant that the effects of the law would occur only very gradually over time. It seems that those effects were still unfolding when the ban was lifted, and indeed they may not have been fully realized for several more years into the future even if the ban had been extended in 2004.

The evidence is too limited for any firm projections, but it does suggest that long term restrictions on these guns and magazines could potentially produce at least a small reduction in shootings.
Other studies, he said, have suggested attacks with semiautomatic guns &#8211; particularly those having large magazines &#8211; &#8220;result in more shots fired, persons hit and wounds inflicted than do attacks with other guns and magazines.&#8221; Another study of handgun attacks in Jersey City during the 1990s, he said, &#8220;estimated that incidents involving more than 10 shots fired accounted for between 4 and 5 percent of the total gunshot victims in the sample.&#8221;
Koper, Jan. 14: So, using that as a very tentative guide, that&#8217;s high enough to suggest that eliminating or greatly reducing crimes with these magazines could produce a small reduction in shootings, likely something less than 5 percent. Now we should note that effects of this magnitude could be hard to ever measure in any very definitive way, but they nonetheless could have nontrivial, notable benefits for society. Consider, for example, at our current level of our gun violence, achieving a 1 percent reduction in fatal and non-fatal criminal shootings would prevent approximately 650 shootings annually &#8230; And, of course having these sorts of guns, and particularly magazines, less accessible to offenders could make it more difficult for them to commit the sorts of mass shootings that we&#8217;ve seen in recent years.&#8221;

Koper concluded by saying that &#8220;a new ban on large capacity magazines and assault weapons would certainly not be a panacea for gun crime, but it may help to prevent further spread of particularly dangerous weaponry and eventually bring small reductions in some of the most serious and costly gun crimes.&#8221;
So, basically, you cherry picked things out of a report that deals with cherry picking things out of reports. BRavo!

70% of gun statistics are suicides. They are still considered criminal shootings regardless. If you could reduce the suicide rate by 1%, you would save more than 30,000 people.
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
wow London. You just quoted an article that basically says there are no facts that actually say the ban worked, but maybe if we had let go longer it might have quite possibly saved a bunny or two.

This guy is obviously writing an opinion of what he thinks might maybe possibly hopefully could a little bit help if we do what he wants. You posted that like it was fact.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
Oh I know, the drop increased during that time period. You are talking about a very very very small fraction of a percentage of murders that took place with the guns that were banned.

You must not really know anything about Birmingham Al. B'ham and Detroit are comparable. Can I compare Detroit to Chicago?
I know about Birmingham and it has nothing on Detroit or Chicago. To the red highlight how many lives would have to be saved in order for you to agree???
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
wow London. You just quoted an article that basically says there are no facts that actually say the ban worked, but maybe if we had let go longer it might have quite possibly saved a bunny or two.

This guy is obviously writing an opinion of what he thinks might maybe possibly hopefully could a little bit help if we do what he wants. You posted that like it was fact.
no i posted it saying he spoke from a neutral side.."hint" remember the word unbiased
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
Lets pretend for a momment that its possible to remove a simple tool from a country.

if we banned machettes would people still be killed by knives? yes

If we banned all knives would people still be killed by knives? yes occasionaly from knives smuggled in. (remember in this scenario we are able to remove tools from society magically)

Now to the important question.

If we banned all knives would people still be killed? Yes and probably the exact same amount of people.
The whole idea of gun control is to limit the number of deaths. I guarantee I can get more kills per minute with a hk416 then a knife or a hand gun limited to 10 rounds. Now ask yourself which one do you think will get more DEAD faster and quicker

oh and please don't bring a knife to a gun fight
 
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