Plant Moisture Stress - Symptoms and Solutions

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
tcoupemn, moisture stress will show up as burn, leaf necrosis, etc.

Cheers again ub! :) I'm doing my best to keep my girls happy.they are getting close to harvest. 3-4 weeks stab in the dark. Hate to see it all go to shit now!
Pretty plants make for pretty colas. Good luck!

Tio
 

romano

Active Member
UB, Can you think of any 'first signs' of problems other than the ones in your ditty. Us newbs hear alot of " learn to read your plants". Im tryng and learning ! I know when my leaves claw its most likely over fert., I think burnt tips is a secondary sign to over fert. I know when they droop its most likely the first sign of not enough water. Can you expand on this ?Give us a list of the most common signs? Thanks alot!!
 

tigerwolf

Active Member
i need some advice.. i have some ppp and some snow white, and this is the second round of growing them.. the first round i used miricle grow potting soil and the liquid fert,, everything looked ok untill the last 3 weeks of flowering. then the fan leaves started browning from the tips and then falling off.. i thought it may have been over fert.. so i flushed and no improvement.. when i researched it, the only pics that matched my problem were phosphorus deficency.. but its not deficient in phosphorus... so on the second round i didnt use the liquid fert just organic and i still have the same problem.. i have did soil and water tests and the ph is around 6 and all nutrient tests are in the right range... ventilation is great. temps are fine, and im not over or under watering..the only thing i can think of is i have a water neutrilizing system in my house that uses calcium carbonate aka calcite to neutrilize the water.. would that over time build up in the soil and cause the plant to not take up water.. the root systems seem underdeveloped... has anyone ever had the same problem... thank you for your time...
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
UB, Can you think of any 'first signs' of problems other than the ones in your ditty. Us newbs hear alot of " learn to read your plants". Im tryng and learning ! I know when my leaves claw its most likely over fert., I think burnt tips is a secondary sign to over fert. I know when they droop its most likely the first sign of not enough water.
No, it's a SYMPTOM of too little moisture, water within the plant tissue. Your job as a grower is find out why the plant is not taking up (or retaining) sufficient moisture. It's nice that our plants talk to us when they're not doing well. It's our goal to "understand what they're saying", and that's not too easy at times.

Good luck,
UB
 

ronaldino

Member
UB! Just read through the post, Love it, lots of great examples and info. I wanted to throw my situation into the mix and see what you thought. I've got these plants they've been in 7gal pots for almost 3 weeks now.

The new growth I was noticing on the plants was coming out wrinkled and crinkled. The edges of my leaves were curling a bit, not much spotting and I haven't fed them full strength nutrients at all. I transplanted and gave them 1/2 strength super-thrive B1. The next week (week 1) I brewed a batch of Tamashi Bokashi Organic Compost Tea and soon after I started noticing some ill effects. Signs of what looked to me like Iron Deficiency and micro-nutrient lockout.

I bought a pH probe and tested the soil and the probe was reading an average of 7.5 on all 35 plants. I know this was high and I figured the curling could have something to do with either hot soil or hot air/high light/heat stress conditions. I'm vegging them under 2000watts HPS for 18/6 with an additional 600HPS set to kick on after 6 hrs so for 12 hrs/day they get 2600W of veg time. I'm growing them up pretty tall so I immediatly pulled back the lights to help with the heat damage and started looking for advice on what to do about the high soil pH. Ive foliar fed them 4 times total. Twice with Neem+Foliar Nutrients and once with Organicide b/c I saw some bugs around my room and did it as a preventative.

I was told by some to flush fully any old nutes and start again with a balanced system.
I was told by others to fertilize in hopes that it would bring the soil down.
And I was told by others to try amending my soil with Garden Lime to buffer the pH

Alongside all these suggestions, I was recommended to foliar feed with Green Stay which has a ton of micro-nutrients.
I decided to go with the garden lime although I was told it would affect the livelihood of the bokashi.

I took each plant out one at a time. I added 2tbs of Lime to the top soil of each plant and watered in de-chlorinated water pH 6.3-6.4 and gave each plant 3-5 gal depending on the size of the plant (trying to keep them on an even watering/feeding schedule). Now I know the effects won't be seen overnight or anything but it's been about 4 days now and the pH probe hasn't shown any signs that the pH of the soil is going down at all. Plants are still showing these iron deficient symptoms but seem to be improving after the Green Stay Foliar (hard to tell but i feel it's improving)

NOW comes the really confusing part of it all. I took my pH pen and I tested the runoff water of the last few plants I "lime/flushed" and the water that was pouring out was reading incredibly LOW, at 5.5. This did not make any sense to me, why would the water OUT be extremely lower than the water IN?

Is it possible that the pH probe that I purchased is a bogus piece of equipment?

Anyhow, I know these problems are often difficult to accurately diagnose and I'm doing everything I can to understand what's actually going on, but I thought I'd post my pictures anyways to see if you had any expert input.
 

Attachments

tcoupemn12

Well-Known Member
am i trippin or is you growing a plant in a zip lock bag? ... hahahaha
you ant trippin its in a tall skinny zip lock did not want to buy 1/2 gal gro bags.if you look at post 20 in my grow jornal you can see where i put 4 of them in a 3 gal bag and i had one left over i mant to tape it to light lock it but never did. + its doin shitty with all the burn im on an all water regimin now till they show hunger.
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
ronaldino, I don't know where to start. You're throwing so much stuff at them, taking alot of ill advice, you're doomed bro. Start with the basics, keep it simple, don't add insult to injury with practices of adding lime to an already alkaline soil pH, etc. If you have to take the advice of others (alot of it not correct) then I suggest you stop growing until you learn the basics so you can empower yourself. This may sound harsh, but I mean, recommend some basic botany....what makes a plant tick. Gardening is easy, don't screw it up with alot of crap and stupid advice.

The leaves don't look bad to me, but then again it's hard to tell under a HPS light.

BTW, a soil pH of 7.5 is perfectly acceptable.

Using de-chlorinated water adjusted to a pH of 6.3 is a waste of your time. Soil is a powerful buffer.

The amount of chlorine used in municipal water will do no harm to your plants. Letting your water gas off is another one of those paradigms that just won't die.

Good luck,
UB
 

Katatawnic

Well-Known Member
This may sound harsh, but I mean, recommend some basic botany....what makes a plant tick. Gardening is easy, don't screw it up with alot of crap and stupid advice.
Hear, hear! :clap: I ignore a lot of advice I read on cannabis forums. If it sounds even remotely silly, it's bound to give insanely silly results; and not in any humorous way. If plants needed all the stuff people tell you they need, then why do they do so well on their own when left to Mother Nature? ;)

UB, what sites would you recommend for some good reading on botany? Doesn't have to be cannabis related; I want to brush up on basic botany itself. :D

The amount of chlorine used in municipal water will do no harm to your plants. Letting your water gas off is another one of those paradigms that just won't die.
Yep! If clorinated tap water was so bad for plants, then there wouldn't be such beautiful lawns and gardens surrounding us. Only someone who's more insane and OCD than I am would even entertain the thought of spending the ungodly costs of using "special" water on huge lawns and gardens! :hump:
 

tcoupemn12

Well-Known Member


Yep! If clorinated tap water was so bad for plants, then there wouldn't be such beautiful lawns and gardens surrounding us. Only someone who's more insane and OCD than I am would even entertain the thought of spending the ungodly costs of using "special" water on huge lawns and gardens! :hump:
great point!!:clap:
i was letting water sit for a day but i only have one three gallon bucket and have to flush 10+gallons of media lol so it was imposable to flush all at once so if i have time i let 4 gallons chill but other than that it comes right out of the tap into the bucket nutes added ph corrected and into the plants. these chumps almost had me feelin guilty
 

ronaldino

Member
Thanks for the advice, even if it was a little harsh... and even though you really didnt' answer my question but instead took the time to make me feel like another "doomed" amateur.

My plants have been improving since I added the lime. Could be a result of the foliar. I feel like I have a good idea of what I'm doing here but I was just curious why the runoff was so much lower pH than the water I put in. I probably did burn them a little early but I really don't think i'm "doomed."
I also didn't do all those things people suggested, it's just what they suggested. I only did the lime because it acts as a buffer to either bring soil ph Up if it's too low or Down if it's too high.

And they put a lot of chlorine in the water where I live once a month so I think I'm going to keep using my "waste of time" de-chlorinator.

I'm all about questioning the validity of things I learn about gardening. Which is why don't rush off and do everything Joe Schmo says is the right thing to do. So conversely, I have to ask,

Why do you think de-chlorinated water is a waste of time?

When introducing living bacteria and beneficial microbes to a soil like with organic compost teas you have to use de-chlorinated water or microbes won't LIVE. So it would make sense that after you water them in, the microbes would die if you fed the plant unfiltered water.

P.S. I'm not doomed... and there really aren't many lawns and gardens where i live so... :P
 

Katatawnic

Well-Known Member
these chumps almost had me feelin guilty
Oh yeah, I've caught myself "hanging my head in shame" after being told that I did this or that "wrong" when it's nothing that will hinder my plants' growth.... then I snap out of it and remind myself that it's forum hype; nothing to do with botany. ;) IMNSHO, many (if not the majority of) problems encountered by growers are caused by doing too much, not too little! All any plant needs to flourish is basic nutrients, water, light, air, pruning/topping if desired.... and a soothing lullaby sung to them nightly. :mrgreen:


NOW comes the really confusing part of it all. I took my pH pen and I tested the runoff water of the last few plants I "lime/flushed" and the water that was pouring out was reading incredibly LOW, at 5.5. This did not make any sense to me, why would the water OUT be extremely lower than the water IN?
My guess would be because lime lowers pH, so there's a chance that your soil's pH is much lower than the water you put in; as in much too low. Just a guess, but it makes sense.

Thanks for the advice, even if it was a little harsh... and even though you really didnt' answer my question but instead took the time to make me feel like another "doomed" amateur.
UB's approach is 100% no-nonsense, which is exactly what he was trying to tell you in his reply. His intent is never to make someone feel "bad" or "inadequate" etc.; only to help us help ourselves by reminding us that plants are plants, and the basics of all plants begins with basic botany. His remark about "doom" was in reference to all the varying advice on these forums, much of which is hype. Hence his constant suggestion to research some basic botany to learn about (therefore often prevent) problems rather than focusing only on symptoms of trouble in our cannabis plants after the fact. The more we learn about the basics of what plants need, the less we need advice from others at all.... greatly reducing the number of suggestions that are completely unnecessary, and all too often harmful to our precious plants. :D

And they put a lot of chlorine in the water where I live once a month so I think I'm going to keep using my "waste of time" de-chlorinator.

Why do you think de-chlorinated water is a waste of time?
As UB said, soil is a powerful buffer.I've not once had to adjust pH since I switched from hydro to soil, and I also live in an area that also heavily chlorinates. I'm not implying that one shouldn't have to adjust pH just because I haven't had the need, mind you. ;) My point is that soil does buffer many things, like pH. Mother Nature knows what she's doing. :mrgreen:

EDIT:
Had an "OOPS!" moment there.... I went from clorinated water to pH. :lol: However, soil being a powerful buffer remains true whether it's clorine or pH. ;)
Also, de-clorinating water is just fine if it's personal preference. I personally consider it a waste of time, for me.

Out of curiousity, who says that you shouldn't use straight tap water with organic nutrients? Forums, or the nutrient manufacturers? (Truly curious; I don't use organic mixes, although I also don't use any "extra" stuff.)

P.S. I'm not doomed... and there really aren't many lawns and gardens where i live so... :P
LOL! But I'm sure you've seen a few in your lifetime. :lol:
 

ronaldino

Member




LOL! But I'm sure you've seen a few in your lifetime. :lol:
LOL, I have seen a few in my lifetime and even some in my neighborhood but people do use a ton of water to have them.

My guess would be because lime lowers pH, so there's a chance that your soil's pH is much lower than the water you put in; as in much too low. Just a guess, but it makes sense.
The soil probe tells me different, 7.5ish. I suppose it could be highly in-accurate but not likely to be THAT inaccurate. And it's my understanding that lime "buffers" pH so if it's low, it'll bring it up and if it's high, it'll bring it down.



Out of curiousity, who says that you shouldn't use straight tap water with organic nutrients? Forums, or the nutrient manufacturers? (Truly curious; I don't use organic mixes, although I also don't use any "extra" stuff.)
It's my understanding that it's not necessary to use de-chlorinated water on bottled nutrient solutions but you DO have to use de-chlorinated water when brewing teas that include living microbes and beneficial bacteria. Even the trace amounts of chlorine found in tap water will greatly reduce the bacteria count of the brew. Yes you can still brew it and it will still have some beneficial elements to the tea but there won't be as much living microbes to aid in nutrient transport.

I've been using this one type of tea called Tamashi Bokashi but there are lots of them out there.

I've seen the difference in the brews, tap vs filtered. De-chlorinated brews are foamier with actual fungus growing on the tea-bag. When brewed with tap water, the bags had no fungus and no foam.

Anyhow, no hard feelings on the harshness, I'm not offended, just jokin' around.
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member


Hear, hear! :clap: I ignore a lot of advice I read on cannabis forums. If it sounds even remotely silly, it's bound to give insanely silly results; and not in any humorous way. If plants needed all the stuff people tell you they need, then why do they do so well on their own when left to Mother Nature? ;)


Exactly.

UB, what sites would you recommend for some good reading on botany? Doesn't have to be cannabis related; I want to brush up on basic botany itself. :D
You'll have to do a search. Regarding the best read on botany, it's hard to beat Mel Franks books and they are cannabis focused. I have his 82 Grower's guide. Without question, he is a master gardener in all respects.

Thanks for the advice, even if it was a little harsh... and even though you really didnt' answer my question but instead took the time to make me feel like another "doomed" amateur.
Unless you tell me what your daily activities are, I can only guess. And again, color means alot to me so the photos under HPS can't be used as a judgement tool.

My plants have been improving since I added the lime.
Again, lime's affect is alkaline. Are you trying to raise the pH, because that is what you're doing.

Could be a result of the foliar. I feel like I have a good idea of what I'm doing here but I was just curious why the runoff was so much lower pH than the water I put in.
Because soil is a powerful buffer, like I said. What is the pH of your runoff? pH adjusted water is for someone that has alot of time on their hands.


I probably did burn them a little early but I really don't think i'm "doomed."
I meant that in the context of taking folks' advice without understanding the shortcomings of your garden and the impact of their suggestions. For example, you're saying your soil's pH is 7.5 (alkaline) but you're doing exactly the opposite of what you should to bring it down to say.....6.5. Having said that, IF your meter is accurate and you're measuring your soil's pH like you should, then you need to take other measures. To repeat myself, cannabis is pH tolerant. pH only relates to elemental uptake, not leaf curling, etc. A pH of 7.5 is certainly in the range to grow healthy, productive plants. I would not bother to adjust a pH of 7.5, there are much more important issues to concern yourself with like producing and maintaining a healthy root system and lots of foliage.

I also didn't do all those things people suggested, it's just what they suggested. I only did the lime because it acts as a buffer to either bring soil ph Up if it's too low or Down if it's too high.
No sir, lime has an alkaline affect. Dolomite is moderate in its affect and quicklime (hydrated) is radical. All will buffer the pH up, the former is a carbonate the latter a hydroxide, not sulfates.

And they put a lot of chlorine in the water where I live once a month so I think I'm going to keep using my "waste of time" de-chlorinator.
Brita is the easiest and quickest to use if you choose to de-chlorinate your water. It also has a side benefit of removing bicarbonates.

When introducing living bacteria and beneficial microbes to a soil like with organic compost teas you have to use de-chlorinated water or microbes won't LIVE.
Who says? Have you ever done an analysis of the before or after regarding the microbe count, or you relying on a feeling or what someone says? I lived very near a water processing plant so the chlorine amines (or whatever they are called) were at their highest levels at my house as opposed to 40 miles at the end of the delivery system. I never had issues using tapwater, on cannabis or otherwise, and I am an organic gardener who always uses peat moss and manure compost.

Regarding this tea product, gotta a link for me?

BTW, you do understand that organic fertilizers are useless unless they contain the proper nutritional salts or are able to convert into such salts?

Good luck,
Tio
 

ronaldino

Member


Unless you tell me what your daily activities are, I can only guess. And again, color means alot to me so the photos under HPS can't be used as a judgement tool.Tio
I'll work on getting some better pictures.

Again, lime's affect is alkaline. Are you trying to raise the pH, because that is what you're doing.
http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/mjgrow9f.htm

"Adjusting pH Of Marijuana Grown In Soil A good way to stabilize soil is to use dolomite lime (calcium-magnesium carbonate). Dolomitic lime acts slowly and continuously, so soil will remain pH stable for a few months.


Dolomite lime has been used by gardeners as a pH stabilizer for many years. It has a pH that is neutral (7.0). When added to soil in the correct proportions, it will stabilize soil at a pH near 7.0."[/QUOTE]

This source suggests that Lime is neutral and will act as a stabilizer for soil pH.

Because soil is a powerful buffer, like I said. What is the pH of your runoff? pH adjusted water is for someone that has alot of time on their hands.
Like I said before, runoff was 5.5, water in was 6.4


To repeat myself, cannabis is pH tolerant. pH only relates to elemental uptake, not leaf curling, etc. A pH of 7.5 is certainly in the range to grow healthy, productive plants. I would not bother to adjust a pH of 7.5, there are much more important issues to concern yourself with like producing and maintaining a healthy root system and lots of foliage.
Then why are there charts like the one I attached that show the availability of most essential macro and micro nutrients to be in the range of 6&6.5. As you can see from the chart, Iron is mostly un-available at a ph of 7.5, and that's exactly the symptoms my plants were showing me, iron deficiency.


Brita is the easiest and quickest to use if you choose to de-chlorinate your water. It also has a side benefit of removing bicarbonates.
That's 100% OPInION sir,
http://www.hydrologicsystems.com/ These guys crush Brita, (in my humble opinion)

Who says? Have you ever done an analysis of the before or after regarding the microbe count, or you relying on a feeling or what someone says? I lived very near a water processing plant so the chlorine amines (or whatever they are called) were at their highest levels at my house as opposed to 40 miles at the end of the delivery system. I never had issues using tapwater, on cannabis or otherwise, and I am an organic gardener who always uses peat moss and manure compost.
No I have never done a microbe count and I don't know how I would. I've seen brews with tap vs. filtered and they look TOTALLY different, like night and day. The most clear difference was with the filtered water, there was actual fungus growing on the bag (hydro-hotel) that was holding the Bokashi. On the unfiltered tap water, the color and smell of the tea were about the same but there was no foam on the top and no fungus growing on the bag. A clear sign (to me) that there was NO Life or less life in the tea.



Regarding this tea product, gotta a link for me?
No link, at least I haven't been able to find one. Attaching some pics. The directions clearly state the importance of using de-chlorinated water.



BTW, you do understand that organic fertilizers are useless unless they contain the proper nutritional salts or are able to convert into such salts?
Not really following you here, could you please elaborate.
 

Attachments

Top