potency of mushrooms

Nootnam

Well-Known Member
Say you are growing a big batch of mushrooms and have small and large shrooms. Have you ever noticed if you eat an 8th of small shrooms vs an 8th of large shrooms, the small ones are always going to be more potent. This is because no matter the size, upon maturity all the shrooms in that batch have the same levels of psilocybin. So next time you buy some booms, the smaller the better because they weigh less so you get more per 8th. Bigger is not always better
 

rory420420

Well-Known Member
you are %100 correct ime/o..
hardest shroom trips i ever had were on pinners..i used to roll lots of booms,and could save up about an oz a week of little pins the size of matches or smaller(the ones the size of match heads were usually the good size ones)..id pick em off the bigger stem bases if clusters of larger shrooms..some good knowledge to have,as i tell peeps not to give me the big ones,ill take the little ones..they gladly hand em over to make their bags look nicer with the big ones..
 

Nootnam

Well-Known Member
you are %100 correct ime/o..
hardest shroom trips i ever had were on pinners..i used to roll lots of booms,and could save up about an oz a week of little pins the size of matches or smaller(the ones the size of match heads were usually the good size ones)..id pick em off the bigger stem bases if clusters of larger shrooms..some good knowledge to have,as i tell peeps not to give me the big ones,ill take the little ones..they gladly hand em over to make their bags look nicer with the big ones..
Yea I've always asked for the small ones as well. I know people who think they're getting a better deal cause they got one giant 8th ounce shroom when in reality, one tiny 8th gram shroom is just as potent haha
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
You all are not quite right. Given a monoculture, a small mushroom that has opened is gram for gram no more or less potent than a large mushroom that has an open cap.

The theory is that the ftuit is built as the mycelial mass devotes cells to this new formation. You may have noticed that fruit do not grow in a linear way, they start slowly, a day from primordia to pin, a day or two to immature fruit body but then, over night they double in size and stature.

What happens is that all the cells that will be in the fruit are assembled. From that point the cells become enlarged,they swell, which takes fsr less time. One can even notice that this is the time when the substrate shrinks fastest.

So, what is likely happening is that though the cells engorge they produce no more of the active chemical. In essence, after a certain point they simply dilute themselves. When a mushroom aborts, the cells never get a chance to expand.

If we could anticipate when that changeover occurs, we could pick the mushroom then and always have the most potent ones.

Bear in mind thst potency varies slightly between flushrs, the later flushes seeming to lose potency. Therr are small differences between strains but except for penis envy, the difference is slight. And also, curiously, all that folk drug lore has a basis in fact. I have seen studies that indicate that the caps are ever so slightly stronger than the stems, with the potency varying depending in the openness of the cap.
 

rory420420

Well-Known Member
i wasnt talking about open caps,i was talking about the mini pins at the base of even small mushrooms.literally smaller than a match head...like a dark dot on the end of angel hair pasta..
ive put it to the test to prove to myself and others(more for my own curiosity),imo,my theory is sound..5 trips of bigger,"bag appeal" shrooms,and 5 trips of the pins,same batch,same amount..every time the minis won..a few friends have done te same,and concurred..perhaps iit a mental thing..idk,but its a winning observation in my book.
 

iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Hard to tell, I've never really tried it. I usually like to mix my flushes and shrooms just to get an even mixture. I would be curious to know, though.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
i wasnt talking about open caps,i was talking about the mini pins at the base of even small mushrooms.literally smaller than a match head...like a dark dot on the end of angel hair pasta..
ive put it to the test to prove to myself and others(more for my own curiosity),imo,my theory is sound..5 trips of bigger,"bag appeal" shrooms,and 5 trips of the pins,same batch,same amount..every time the minis won..a few friends have done te same,and concurred..perhaps iit a mental thing..idk,but its a winning observation in my book.

Rory. I guess my long winded response was confusing. Yes, if a mushroom is harvested before it begins to expand it is more potent.
 

shroomologist

New Member
I completely agree, I am relatively new to mycology and my first cakes were larger shrooms and I also waited for caps to open. These cakes I have now for some reason are growing really small shrooms but a whole lot of clusters all over the cakes with like 10 to a cluster. I ate 3 grams Friday night and I was completely tripping my balls off. Had the most awesome time with my wife. We ate like 2.5 grams each off the cakes with larger shrooms and we just got real lazy and laughed a little bit. Nothing even close to the small ones. But does anyone know why the cakes are growing the clusters of smaller shrooms? Instead of large ones? Not that I'm complaining.
 

WHODAT@THADOR

Well-Known Member
I completely agree, I am relatively new to mycology and my first cakes were larger shrooms and I also waited for caps to open. These cakes I have now for some reason are growing really small shrooms but a whole lot of clusters all over the cakes with like 10 to a cluster. I ate 3 grams Friday night and I was completely tripping my balls off. Had the most awesome time with my wife. We ate like 2.5 grams each off the cakes with larger shrooms and we just got real lazy and laughed a little bit. Nothing even close to the small ones. But does anyone know why the cakes are growing the clusters of smaller shrooms? Instead of large ones? Not that I'm complaining.
Whats the temp of your incubator at? Are they the same strains?
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
You all are not quite right. Given a monoculture, a small mushroom that has opened is gram for gram no more or less potent than a large mushroom that has an open cap.

The theory is that the ftuit is built as the mycelial mass devotes cells to this new formation. You may have noticed that fruit do not grow in a linear way, they start slowly, a day from primordia to pin, a day or two to immature fruit body but then, over night they double in size and stature.

What happens is that all the cells that will be in the fruit are assembled. From that point the cells become enlarged,they swell, which takes fsr less time. One can even notice that this is the time when the substrate shrinks fastest.

So, what is likely happening is that though the cells engorge they produce no more of the active chemical. In essence, after a certain point they simply dilute themselves. When a mushroom aborts, the cells never get a chance to expand.

If we could anticipate when that changeover occurs, we could pick the mushroom then and always have the most potent ones.

Bear in mind thst potency varies slightly between flushrs, the later flushes seeming to lose potency. Therr are small differences between strains but except for penis envy, the difference is slight. And also, curiously, all that folk drug lore has a basis in fact. I have seen studies that indicate that the caps are ever so slightly stronger than the stems, with the potency varying depending in the openness of the cap.

This is a wonderful story canndo but...

Given your theory, the mushrooms "plump up" during the last day or two with water.

That would explain why smaller, immature fruit are stronger than older ones but only if they were fresh.

If dried then according to your little theory, they would when dry, be roughly equal in potency.
 

WHODAT@THADOR

Well-Known Member
This is a wonderful story canndo but...

Given your theory, the mushrooms "plump up" during the last day or two with water.

That would explain why smaller, immature fruit are stronger than older ones but only if they were fresh.

If dried then according to your little theory, they would when dry, be roughly equal in potency.
I Love reading everything you post canndo and agree with all it8-) That said just figured I would include this here.

Strain development and Hybrid myths

Armillaria Mellea - the Honey Mushroom
The A. Mellea (Honey Mushroom) is an attractive and complex fungus with fascinating traits. It is an edible choice mushroom that is actually parasitic, attacking and killing trees. That is why the ATCC (American Type Culture Collection) designates the fungus as a pathogen and restricts its sale, requiring a special permit to get them. The Honey fungus has been discovered to be the largest living organism. Its underground mycelial body size was determined by linking forest shrooms by DNA testing. All the shrooms of a given strain are the product of the gigantic underground mycelial mass which has been found to be as large as 36 acres. But when the underground mycelial body is considered, it is far larger than 36 acres. Acres is a two dimensional figure (length and width). This does not include the third dimension - depth. Also, A. Mellea mycelium can be luminous when young and in a spreading mode.
Here is a quote from the college textbook "FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FUNGI" 4rth ed 1996 - Landecker, concerning research with A. Mellea.

SYMPATIC SPECIATION

Sympatic speciation involves the origin of species as a result of ecological, behavioral, or genetic barriers that arise within a single population. The barriers prevent gene flow between the populations, resulting eventually in the divergence of sympatic species. These species are unable to exchange genes even though they occupy a common habitat.

This is the case for the honey fungus Armillaria Mellea, which was classified as a single species. Mating experiments with isolates from North America and Europe revealed that a group of morphologically similar but biologically distinct species was designated as Armillaria Mellea --------

Monokaryotic mating and strain differentiation
In a dikaryotic mushroom like the cubensis, the spores germinate in monokaryotic form, with the genes being incomplete. To complete the gene set, the hyphae from the spores have to mate, and then it can produce fruitbodies. So if two monokaryon hyphaes are paired in vitro in the lab, and no mating of the hyphae (no clamp connections - no exchange of genes) is observed - then the two monokaryons are a different specie or spore race. If the hyphae from two spores connect and join (clamp connection), this is evidence that they are of the same specie, spore race or race strain. Lab work on this is very detailed and complex because in the cubensis, only one in four hyphae (spores) are compatabile, so many monokaryons must be tried (one in sixteen chance for mating). And add to that the reality that only a small percentage of cubensis spores actually germinate.

Genus - Specie - Race - Strain
These new findings have revealed something that many are beginning to see in the growing of the different Psilocybe Cubensis "races" that have appeared around the internet world. The word "race", newly coined by PF, is meant to replace the commonly used word, "strains". But "strain" is still applicable, but clarified to what it actually is.
When a spore sample of a given mushroom is germinated, the mycelium differentiates into types with different growing characterstics. These are the strains, that come from the spores. The strains can be seen in the fruitings themselves. For example, a cake with PF shrooms will have specimens growing next to each other or clumped on different areas of the cake that have a different look. The colors, the cap shape, speed of growth and even propensity towards bluing is varied. There can be even sterile strains in which the gills do not develope spores. These sterile strains are sometimes selected by growers because of the "cleaness" of shrooms growing without sporulating. A strain is selected by cloning, which is done by operating on the shroom, excising a tiny fragment of flesh and transplanting the fragment into a culture medium. The mycelium that grows from the fragment is a clone of the mushroom (identical genes) and when transplanted into growing medium, it will grow into a mushroom genetically identical to the parent.

The diverse spore races that PF sells are not strains. They are very different from each other and always grow that way. Each one is identifiable from each other with distinct characteristics. Because of this, there needs to be an update on the taxonomy of psilocybe cubensis. In Biology, organisms are identified as genus and specie. In psilocybe cubensis, the genus is Psilocybe and the specie is cubensis. But what about the different cubensis races? They fit like this:

Genus
Specie
race (complete genotype)
race strain (individual)

If a mushroom is cloned, that does not change the race. The race is in the spores but the strain is in the individual genes of the single mushroom fruitbody. If a spore print is taken from the clone and germinated, the race comes back with diverse strains in the mycelium. So therefore, a spore print is not a strain, but a race. And within the race are the myriads of strain possibilities.
Strain development?
Strain development is actually not a "development" but more of a cultivation technique. Certain strains of a given spore race have better fruiting characterstics than others. This is because no strains are alike. So the cultivator selects these "better" strains to improve the yield or whatever seems to be in need of "improving". But what happens is that ultimately this so called "improved strain" goes to lunch. This degradation of the strain is called senescence. When this happens, the mycelium goes inactive and becomes a non fruiter.
Also, - spore atrophy sets in. When a fruitbody is cloned and then continually reproduced that way, the spore system is bypassed which eventually makes the whole system go dead. Even if the mushroom continues to sporulate, the spores become weakly germinatible and unfruitfull. The senescent spores can even become inert with no germination - a dead end. So one can not "develop" a strain, but only select it out. Strains apparently can not be "improved". They are what they are and stay that way.

HYBRIDS?
HYBRID - according to Websters New World Dictionary. -
"The offspring produced by crossing two individuals of unlike genetic constitution: specif., the offspring of two animals or plants of different races, varieties, species, etc."
The idea of hybridizing mushrooms has been jangled around for years. And apparantly, from the research and discoveries concerning the Armillaria Mellea mushroom, it is now scientifically proven that the idea of hybridizing different mushroom races or species is a myth.

The so called "hybridizing of fungi" is more like mating two selected strains. That would be possible, but then the result would still be the same specie and race and possibly a new strain, which is kind of absurd when strains are apparantly infinite. It would seem very possible that "strain hybrids" can occur. That isn't a HYBRID according to the definition (Websters New World Dictionary definition). But of course, when the spore print is taken, it is back to the full genotype spore race - with the strain or strain hybrid lost.

The research with A. Mellea has revealed the existance of these spore races which are unable to mate. The Mycologists describe this as "morphologically similar but biologically distinct species", or that these races are actually different species. This makes the taxonomy of the shrooms impossible and unworkable. But the idea of dividing the specie into spore races makes total sense. Instead of creating myriads of new specie names to designate these new spore races, the races just need to be specified in the taxonomy. For instance - Psilocybe Cubensis Equador - Psilocybe Cubensis Fanaticus - Psilocybe Cubensis Treasure coast ect. And in the case of the A. Mellea races, one can have: A. Mellea California - A. Mellea Europa or A. Mellea Japanensis ect.

In summary, this new knowledge about the unmatability of isolates of N. American and European honey mushrooms (Armillaria Mellea) shows that the theoretical hybridizing of A. Mellea is impossible. And when the clear differentiation displayed by the various races of available P. Cubensis is added to the mix, the hybrid myth is exposed.

Psylocybe fanaticus
January 1999
 

indicat33

Well-Known Member
Say you are growing a big batch of mushrooms and have small and large shrooms. Have you ever noticed if you eat an 8th of small shrooms vs an 8th of large shrooms, the small ones are always going to be more potent. This is because no matter the size, upon maturity all the shrooms in that batch have the same levels of psilocybin. So next time you buy some booms, the smaller the better because they weigh less so you get more per 8th. Bigger is not always better
I've noticed this also. Years back when flushing some PF style cakes of cubies, I had one Outrageously potent batch, which also happened to be the smallest cubes I've ever grown. Been a long time, and I can't remember why, but I colonized very small (4oz) jars instead of my usual half-pints. The resulting shrooms were like the "little gnome" versions of the normal ones I was used to growing. In any case, the yield was very small, but I noticed when drying they turned so deep blue that they went indigo-black in color. I ate only 3g dry grams (as opposed to my usual 5-6g) and had a mind-melting experience, the strongest, most visually-insane trip I've ever had in all my dealings with P.Cubensis.
I've been searching for THAT level of Psilocybin/psilocin ever since, to no avail. Now I'm ready to ascend to the Pan-Cyans - copelandia species. My question is, what is a good "rational:P" dose to start out with, when dealing with these species. I'd rather work my way up slowly. I hear it only takes about 1g dry, or 10g wet to have a wicked experience. Anyone in the know?
 

DaSprout

Well-Known Member
I've noticed this also. Years back when flushing some PF style cakes of cubies, I had one Outrageously potent batch, which also happened to be the smallest cubes I've ever grown. Been a long time, and I can't remember why, but I colonized very small (4oz) jars instead of my usual half-pints. The resulting shrooms were like the "little gnome" versions of the normal ones I was used to growing. In any case, the yield was very small, but I noticed when drying they turned so deep blue that they went indigo-black in color. I ate only 3g dry grams (as opposed to my usual 5-6g) and had a mind-melting experience, the strongest, most visually-insane trip I've ever had in all my dealings with P.Cubensis.
I've been searching for THAT level of Psilocybin/psilocin ever since, to no avail. Now I'm ready to ascend to the Pan-Cyans - copelandia species. My question is, what is a good "rational:P" dose to start out with, when dealing with these species. I'd rather work my way up slowly. I hear it only takes about 1g dry, or 10g wet to have a wicked experience. Anyone in the know?
Come on. You lnow
 

DaSprout

Well-Known Member
I've noticed this also. Years back when flushing some PF style cakes of cubies, I had one Outrageously potent batch, which also happened to be the smallest cubes I've ever grown. Been a long time, and I can't remember why, but I colonized very small (4oz) jars instead of my usual half-pints. The resulting shrooms were like the "little gnome" versions of the normal ones I was used to growing. In any case, the yield was very small, but I noticed when drying they turned so deep blue that they went indigo-black in color. I ate only 3g dry grams (as opposed to my usual 5-6g) and had a mind-melting experience, the strongest, most visually-insane trip I've ever had in all my dealings with P.Cubensis.
I've been searching for THAT level of Psilocybin/psilocin ever since, to no avail. Now I'm ready to ascend to the Pan-Cyans - copelandia species. My question is, what is a good "rational:P" dose to start out with, when dealing with these species. I'd rather work my way up slowly. I hear it only takes about 1g dry, or 10g wet to have a wicked experience. Anyone in the know?
Come on. You know better than to ask. Eat an 1/8.
 

DaSprout

Well-Known Member
I've noticed this also. Years back when flushing some PF style cakes of cubies, I had one Outrageously potent batch, which also happened to be the smallest cubes I've ever grown. Been a long time, and I can't remember why, but I colonized very small (4oz) jars instead of my usual half-pints. The resulting shrooms were like the "little gnome" versions of the normal ones I was used to growing. In any case, the yield was very small, but I noticed when drying they turned so deep blue that they went indigo-black in color. I ate only 3g dry grams (as opposed to my usual 5-6g) and had a mind-melting experience, the strongest, most visually-insane trip I've ever had in all my dealings with P.Cubensis.
I've been searching for THAT level of Psilocybin/psilocin ever since, to no avail. Now I'm ready to ascend to the Pan-Cyans - copelandia species. My question is, what is a good "rational:P" dose to start out with, when dealing with these species. I'd rather work my way up slowly. I hear it only takes about 1g dry, or 10g wet to have a wicked experience. Anyone in the know?
At least.

Ssshhhiiiiiiiittttt.
 

WHODAT@THADOR

Well-Known Member
I've noticed this also. Years back when flushing some PF style cakes of cubies, I had one Outrageously potent batch, which also happened to be the smallest cubes I've ever grown. Been a long time, and I can't remember why, but I colonized very small (4oz) jars instead of my usual half-pints. The resulting shrooms were like the "little gnome" versions of the normal ones I was used to growing. In any case, the yield was very small, but I noticed when drying they turned so deep blue that they went indigo-black in color. I ate only 3g dry grams (as opposed to my usual 5-6g) and had a mind-melting experience, the strongest, most visually-insane trip I've ever had in all my dealings with P.Cubensis.
I've been searching for THAT level of Psilocybin/psilocin ever since, to no avail. Now I'm ready to ascend to the Pan-Cyans - copelandia species. My question is, what is a good "rational:P" dose to start out with, when dealing with these species. I'd rather work my way up slowly. I hear it only takes about 1g dry, or 10g wet to have a wicked experience. Anyone in the know?
Well,its like @canndo said earlier. By decreasing the amount of nutrition available to your mushrooms when you spawned them was probably directly responsible for the size of the flush. So, when you ate 3 grams of small cubes vs 3 grams of lets say average size or large cubes you had to consume a larger number of mushies. No matter the size of the mushroom the tryptamines contained inside it are allocated in the primordial phase of its life.(Right after Hyphonial knots form) So, its not the grams you consume but really the actual amount of independent fruiting bodies you eat that dictate the intensity of the trip. Pans are in there own league a 1g trip is very much the equivalent of an 1/8 of cubes. But, the same could be said of Ps. Azure, Cyan, Semi. The real difference is these other species contain other tryptamines/alkaloids not contained in cubes and at higher levels.
 
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WHODAT@THADOR

Well-Known Member
Fungi Perfecti > Psilocybe Mushrooms
Photo Galleries
Psilocybe Mushrooms
These images appear in the book Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World by Paul Stamets. They are for informational purposes only and should not be used alone for identification. All photographs are copyrighted by Paul Stamets, all rights reserved, not for re-distribution without written permission.

Psilocybe azurescens
Common Names

"Astoriensis"
"Flying Saucer Mushroom"
"Indigo Psilocybe
"Blue Runners"
"Blue Angels"

Habitat
This mushroom naturally grows, often prolifically, along the northern Oregon Coast near Astoria, Oregon, favoring the beachland interface. Psilocybe azurescens has a strong affection for dune grasses, especially Ammophila maritima, with which it is closely associated. Generating an extensive, dense and tenacious mycelial mat, P. azurescens causes the whitening of wood. Fruitings begin in late September and continue well after the first frost, often fruiting into late December and early January. An adaptive species, outdoor beds have been established with ease in California, New Mexico, Wisconsin, Vermont, and Ohio.




Psilocybe baeocystis
Common Names

"Baeos"
"Knobby Tops"

Habitat
Found on decaying conifer mulch, in wood chips, or in lawns with high lignin content. Occasionally growing from fallen seed cones of Douglas fir. Found in the fall to early winter and rarely in the spring. (I once found it as late as June 20.) First reported from Oregon, common in Washington, British Columbia, and elsewhere in the Pacific Northwest.



Psilocybe cubensis
Common Names

"Golden Tops"
"Cubies"
"San Isidros"
"Hongos Kentesh"

Habitat
Found throughout the southeastern United States, Mexico, Cuba, Central America, Northern South America, and throughout the subtropical Far East including India, Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia, and regions of Australia (Queensland). Typically, the largest fruitings of this species are seen in the two months prior to the hottest period during the year. In the southeastern United States, May and June are the best months for picking, although they can be found up until January.



Psilocybe cyanescens
Common Names

"Cyans"
"Blue Halos"
"Wavy-Capped Psilocybe"

Habitat
Grows in humus enriched with woody debris, amongst leaves and twigs, in wood chips, sawdust, or in debris fields rich with rotting wood. Often under mixed woods at the edges of lawns, along paths, and in heavily mulched rhododendron and rose gardens. Found in the fall to early winter in the Pacific Northwest. Reported from the western coastal regions of North America (from San Francisco, California to southern Alaska), and also widely spread throughout the United Kingdom, across much of temperate Europe, from Italy to Germany to Spain to Sweden.



Psilocybe cyanofbrillosa
Common Names

"Rhododenron Psilocybe"
"Blue-Haired Psilocybe"

Habitat
Primarily a coastal species, found from Northern California (Eureka/Arcata) north to British Columbia. Associated with bush lupines and especially common on flood plains on river estuaries flowing into the Pacific ocean. Also frequently found in coastal rhododendron gardens and nurseries.


Psilocybe pelliculosa
Habitat
Grows on well decayed conifer substratum, in mulch, or in soil rich in lignin. Often seen along paths in conifer forests and along abandoned roads. Found in the fall to early winter throughout the Pacific Northwest and in Northern California.


Psilocybe semilanceata
Common Names
"Liberty Cap"
"Witch's Hat"

Habitat
Scattered to gregarious in pastures and in fields or in other grassy areas, especially areas inhabited by sheep and cows. Particularly abundant in or about sedge clumps of grass in the damper parts of fields. Reported across much of northern Europe (Italy to Switzerland to Holland, Norway to France), in grasslands of South Africa, Chile, and northern India. Johnston & Buchanan (1995) reported Psilocybe semilanceata from high altitude grasslands in the central South Island of New Zealand.

In the Pacific Northwest of North America, this mushroom occurs west of the Cascades from northern California to British Columbia in the fall to early winter, and to a much lesser degree in the spring along the coastal areas of Oregon and Washington.




Psilocybe sylvatica
Habitat
Grows on wood debris or on wood chips or in well decayed conifer substratum in the fall. Known from the eastern United States (from Michigan to New York) to Ontario and the Pacific Northwest. Also reported from northern Europe.


Psilocybe stuntzii
Common Names"Stuntz's Psilocybe"
"Stuntz's Blue Legs"
"Blue Ringers"

Habitat
Growing on wood chips or in decayed conifer substratum, also in lawns and fields, in the fall to early winter and in the spring. Reported from western Oregon, Washington and British Columbia. Abundant throughout the Puget Sound area.



Psilocybe weilii
HabitatSometimes scattered in red clay soil topped with a thin layer of needles from loblolly pine (Pinus taeda) underneath sweetgum (Liquidambar styraciflua). First reported from southeastern Cherokee County, northern Georgia, USA after Hurricane Opal swept through in 1995. Fruiting from early September through November between temperatures of 45-80° F, preferring 60-75° F.

- See more at: http://www.fungi.com/photo-galleries/psilocybe-mushrooms.html#sthash.AELyIuDL.dpuf
 
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