purplish black leaves on seedlings?

Hi everyone.... please help me.... and please excuse these awful pictures.... i will take pictures with an SLR camera soon when i get one.... anyway i have these seedlings approximately 2 weeks old and all of the sudden the bottom leaves on some of them started turning a purplish black color, and they've been kinda droopy for awhile, so i have cut way back on the water and stuff.... i have not really fed them anything.... just whats in the soil.... what could it be?? please help....
by the way, 400w MH, a little over 2 feet away, soilless mix, 70-80 degrees
thanx
 

Serapis

Well-Known Member
They need nutrients. also, plants that small should really be under flourescents, not hid lamps. It is time to feed with a weak nute mix.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Unless you had old seeds that were not fully viable seedlings of that age should not need fertilization. Depending on the strain, in a fully viable bean there is 3 to 5 weeks of nutrients for the seedlings to live off of.

You said you cut way back on watering. How much and how often did you water? Did you let your soil dry out slightly before watering? Over watering will cause a nitrogen deficiency, especially in seedlings. Nitrogen is the biggest mobile element meaning it can travel anywhere on the plant. Usually the deficiency will start on the lower to middle part of the plant, and then will usually happen to older leaves first. Sometimes in bad cases the leaves will turn a purplish color along with the yellowing.
 
Unless you had old seeds that were not fully viable seedlings of that age should not need fertilization. Depending on the strain, in a fully viable bean there is 3 to 5 weeks of nutrients for the seedlings to live off of.

You said you cut way back on watering. How much and how often did you water? Did you let your soil dry out slightly before watering? Over watering will cause a nitrogen deficiency, especially in seedlings. Nitrogen is the biggest mobile element meaning it can travel anywhere on the plant. Usually the deficiency will start on the lower to middle part of the plant, and then will usually happen to older leaves first. Sometimes in bad cases the leaves will turn a purplish color along with the yellowing.
I watered every 3rd day, then i tried every 4th or 5th day, but to no avail.... i couldn't seem to get those leaves to perk up..... and this is the first time i've ever had leaves just turn purple on me like that.... so i have no idea.... im thinking about transplanting to a soil with more perlite.... so i can control it's water more effectively.... should i?
 

Brick Top

New Member
I watered every 3rd day, then i tried every 4th or 5th day, but to no avail.... i couldn't seem to get those leaves to perk up..... and this is the first time i've ever had leaves just turn purple on me like that.... so i have no idea.... im thinking about transplanting to a soil with more perlite.... so i can control it's water more effectively.... should i?

I would. I would make sure there is good drainage and I would wait for the soil to become slightly dry, not only on the surface, before watering again. Unless after that things continue to get worse I would wait roughly two weeks or two and a half weeks and then feed with a quarter strength solution of fertilizer (a vegging formula type to be exact) and see how they respond. If they do not appear any better after about a week to a week and a half transplanting I would feed them the quarter strength solution then. It is possible you received older beans that were not fully viable and lacked the normal amounts of nutrients in fully viable beans .... but since you made sound like you might have been going a bit heavy on the water and you might lack proper drainage I would tend to place my bet on your problem being nitrogen lockout due to over watering/soil that remained too wet too much of the time, never drying out enough to allow proper nutrient uptake.
 

TheOrganic

Well-Known Member
Bricktop is spot on I believe, And To Serapis- I have started all my seeds under a 400w HID light. The sun is the most powerful light out there, then why would a 400w Hid hurt them. I have started seeds in the sun on the hottest days of the summer and they did prob the best. I just wanna clear up the myth that you should always start under flourescents, I believe any light will do, Flourescents are just cooler and less worry.
 

Hudsonvalley82

Well-Known Member
Bricktop is spot on I believe, And To Serapis- I have started all my seeds under a 400w HID light. The sun is the most powerful light out there, then why would a 400w Hid hurt them. I have started seeds in the sun on the hottest days of the summer and they did prob the best. I just wanna clear up the myth that you should always start under flourescents, I believe any light will do, Flourescents are just cooler and less worry.
I hope your right, I hate having a third set up just for seedlings and clones. If anyone can verify this I will toss out my cfls and fluoros today.
 
i start all my seeds and clones under my 400w mh and thats where i veg them.then they go in the flower room under a 1000w hps.the 400w wont hurt them as long as they are far enough away that you cant feel the heat from the lamp on your hand.
 

Serapis

Well-Known Member
Unless you had old seeds that were not fully viable seedlings of that age should not need fertilization. Depending on the strain, in a fully viable bean there is 3 to 5 weeks of nutrients for the seedlings to live off of.
3-5 weeks of no food? I never feed my seedlings until they tell me they need food. I use an organic starter with no amended nutrients. The longest my seedlings have EVER gone without turning yellow is just past two weeks, at which point the lower leaves begin to yellow, signalling the need for food. I have NEVER seen seedlings go 5 weeks before indicating a need for nutrition. Hell, in 5 weeks, I'm looking at a 6" plant that needs veging, not a seedling still living off of it's seed husk.... Please don't tell me my beans weren't viable enough... I rarely run into a dead bean. 5 weeks without feeding in a non nute soil is just nuts.

I have also never seen a N deficciency cause leaves to turn purple.
 

Serapis

Well-Known Member
Bricktop is spot on I believe, And To Serapis- I have started all my seeds under a 400w HID light. The sun is the most powerful light out there, then why would a 400w Hid hurt them. I have started seeds in the sun on the hottest days of the summer and they did prob the best. I just wanna clear up the myth that you should always start under flourescents, I believe any light will do, Flourescents are just cooler and less worry.
You aren't planting in the desert outside are you? The sun is strong, aye, however most ground is in the shade at some time or another, not constant heat of high noon for 16 hours as with a hanging light bulb either. Your comparison is skewed. Starting seeds and cuttings under flourescents is not a myth, it's a good practice, and it improvesd success rates.
 

Serapis

Well-Known Member
I hope your right, I hate having a third set up just for seedlings and clones. If anyone can verify this I will toss out my cfls and fluoros today.
LOL, I wouldn't, I'd just toss out poor advice.

i start all my seeds and clones under my 400w mh and thats where i veg them.then they go in the flower room under a 1000w hps.the 400w wont hurt them as long as they are far enough away that you cant feel the heat from the lamp on your hand.
Why would you waste 400w on seedlings and cuttings that aren't even producing much growth yet? Not only is that wastefull, it is overkill. I hope you are not advocating that we all abuse the power grid the way you do. You are not going to get the benefit of 400 watts, why use it? why burn up a $50 bulb on seedlings and cuttings? That makes no sense at all.
 

Brick Top

New Member
I hope your right, I hate having a third set up just for seedlings and clones. If anyone can verify this I will toss out my cfls and fluoros today.
Other than one experiment with CFLs so people could stop saying' you never tried them so you don't know,' every grow I have ever had has been under the sun or HID lighting and I have never had a single problem or loss due to it. Just as long as your HID lights are not too close that you create a heat issue you will never have a problem.

Think about the sun for a moment. On a spring day when the sun rays are coming in at fairly steep angles and its cloudy, plants will still be hit by so many light rays of such intensity that it would in comparison make a 1000-watt HID look seem a single tiny candle like people put on birthday cakes.

Anyone who tells you that you need to use CFLs or any type of fluorescent lighting for seedlings and HID lighting will be too powerful, too intense, doesn't know what they are talking about. The only possible issue is heat and you just make sure you know what sort of spacing you need to maintain ... but that goes the same all the way through a grow and it even is the same with CFLs or any type of fluorescent lighting, they can just be closer, but they can cook a seedling or plant too if too close.
 

Brick Top

New Member
3-5 weeks of no food? I never feed my seedlings until they tell me they need food. I use an organic starter with no amended nutrients. The longest my seedlings have EVER gone without turning yellow is just past two weeks, at which point the lower leaves begin to yellow, signalling the need for food. I have NEVER seen seedlings go 5 weeks before indicating a need for nutrition. Hell, in 5 weeks, I'm looking at a 6" plant that needs veging, not a seedling still living off of it's seed husk.... Please don't tell me my beans weren't viable enough... I rarely run into a dead bean. 5 weeks without feeding in a non nute soil is just nuts.
That's right, it is a fact that fully viable seeds will have between three to five weeks of nutrients in them for seedlings to survive on, depending also on the strain.

I have also never seen a N deficciency cause leaves to turn purple.

So just because you have never personally seen it then it is of course impossible, right? You have never actually seen THC and other cannabinoids produced, so that means they cannot be produced and therefore do not exist, right? You have never actually seen a seed form, actually being created, so that of course is proof that seeds cannot be created and therefore are unable to exist, right?

Remember .... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Nitrogen (N) Mobile Element and Macro Element

Benefit: Nitrogen plays a very big role in your plants; this one element is directly responsible for production of chlorophyll, photosynthesis, Amino Acids, which are the building block of Proteins. The myriad of enzymes which help the plants growth in leaves stems and the how well the vigor of your plants is.

Nitrogen is the biggest mobile element meaning it can travel anywhere on the plant. Usually the def will start on the lower to middle part of the plant, and then will usually happen to older leaves first. Then the deficiency will work its way up the plant. Your plant can be green on top, then yellowing on the lower leaves when the deficiency is starting out. Yield will be greatly reduced without good amounts of nitrogen in your plants. Sometimes in bad cases the leaves will turn a purplish color along with the yellowing.

Unlike a magnesium deficiency, nitrogen def will start from the tips and work its way back to the leaf node. Nitrogen and Magnesium get confused. The best way to tell them apart is, nitrogen deficiency starts around the tips and works its way to the back of the leaves, where a magnesium deficiency will cover the entire outer part of the leave and make the entire leaves yellow leaving the veins to stay green. If your plants are having a slow growth rate and have yellowing of the leaves, then most likely it’s a nitrogen deficiency.

Towards the middle to end of flowering stages, the plant will show a nitrogen deficiency almost always. This process is completely normal and just let the plant naturally yellow out as it uses it's stored nutrients. This actually helps you by getting ready for final flushing and then harvesting. At this point DO NOT not use nitrogen to fix the problem. The yellowing leaves will then eventually drop off after the plant is done with them.

Parts affected by a nitrogen deficiency are: Older foliage, going to whole plant, Petioles (rare) cases.


Now for having too much nitrogen in your growing mediums or soil. The plant will have like an overall DARK green look and have delayed maturity. Due to Nitrogen being involved in vegetative growth, to much nitrogen will result in tall plants with weak stems. New growth will be very lively and plant transpiration will be high, but not always. Nitrogen toxicity can be seen when there are very very dry conditions almost as if there was a drought, which may show a burning effect. If you give your plants ammonium based nutrients they may show NH4+ toxicity, which will show a smaller plant growth and lesions that occur on stems and roots, leaf margins that will roll downward. Also the big fan leaves will have “the claw” look. The tips will point down but the leaves will stay up as if when you bend your fingers downwards. Leaves can be twisted when growing… mainly new growths. Roots will be under developed along with the slowing of flowering. Yields will be decreased, because to much nitrogen in early stages of flowering slows down bud growth. Water uptake is slowing down from the vascular breakdown of the plants as well. Too much potassium and nitrogen will lock out calcium as well.

Please don't tell me my beans weren't viable enough... I rarely run into a dead bean.
There is a difference between a fresh fully viable bean, a somewhat aged and partially viable been that has lost some degree of moisture content and stored nutrition and a totally non-viable bean, or "a dead bean," as you put it.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Starting seeds and cuttings under flourescents is not a myth, it's a good practice, and it improvesd success rates.
I do not believe it was totally called a myth, only that it is a myth that it is needed or that it is better. Now I have only experimented with CFL's for seedlings and vegging one time. I used an OLD light bar from a 60's era home movie camera that held four 375-watt bulbs. It was like looking into the sun when all four were switched on for filming.

I used a piece of aluminum flashing, for roofing, and I polished it and shaped it to roughly match an old bat-wing reflector I had lying around with one slight alteration. I started out with more material, width-wise than needed, and where the bat-wing style reflector that I used for a mold to shape my home made reflector ended I curved the rest of the polished aluminum flashing downward so it was close to reaching the top of the pots. I did that because the plants were far enough away from my normal reflective material that I knew as weak as CFLs are I would receive little to no useful reflective light from my normal reflective material.

I used four Y-splitters and eight 26-watt, 1000-watt equivalent 6500K CFLs, I had four pots lined up and positioned so there were two CFLs by each seedling, not exactly directly overhead, but just slightly off center to each side of them. The socket where the Y-splitter was installed was directly over each seedling so the bulbs were only spread as far apart as a standard Y-splitter would make them. The CFLs were kept as low and as close as they could without causing any heat issues.

The seedlings grew well and for the period of time in vegging that I stuck with the system they grew well. But the speed of growth and the nodal spacing did not match what I get when using my 400-watt HID with a 6500K bulb. Growth was most definitely slower, much slower when the plants reached a height where a higher output bulb or more bulbs added lower would have been needed. While tight, the nodal spacing was not as close as with my 400-watt HID with a 6500K bulb and as the plants grew taller in veg and either or both higher output bulbs or more bulbs would have been needed the nodal spacing was no better than if I had been vegging with a HID HPS bulb rather than a 6500K MH bulb.

Eight bulbs using 26 actual watts meant I was using 208 total real watts. For the difference in growth and nodal spacing it is more than well worth it for me to use the extra watts my 400-watt with a 6500K MH bulb uses to get in return much faster growth and tighter nodal spacing and no need to later upgrade the actual wattage of CFLs used or add a number more, which would if doubled, by taking either route, would then roughly match the wattage my 400-watt HID uses, but without the faster better growth and closer nodal spacing of the 400-watt HID.

CFLs and florescents do work, that is not a myth, but the myth is that they work as well or better than HID lighting.
 

TheOrganic

Well-Known Member
You aren't planting in the desert outside are you? The sun is strong, aye, however most ground is in the shade at some time or another, not constant heat of high noon for 16 hours as with a hanging light bulb either. Your comparison is skewed. Starting seeds and cuttings under flourescents is not a myth, it's a good practice, and it improvesd success rates.
My comparison is not skewed, I started my seeds late june outside and they were left outside all day no shade(85-90deg) full sun! And I have a little mouse that runs inside a wheel to run my 400w so I'm all good>:) My temps rite now with seedlings is 75deg. 400w aircooled.

Bricktop you are quite the typist my hands hurt from this!
 
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