Rand Paul you're on my shit list.

RyanTheRhino

RyanTheRhino

Well-Known Member
Illegal Smile said:
It must be frustrating. FYI, I know people who proclaim themselves to be libertarians who say their libertarianism requires them to stand up for the rights of the unborn child. And others who say it means it's the woman's body etc etc. In fact, I can find you libertarians who disagree with each other on virtually any issue. I don't see anything coherent to it at all. I think if you take away the kids who are acting out their little rebellion drama, there's nothing much to libertarianism at all. For sure they (whoever they are) are having zero impact on how history is unfolding.
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Yea but you cant just take out demographics "hannity". Well if you took away all the people who don't think like me, then my guy would win.:dunce: If they are in large enough to make you post something about it they have accomplished a lot more then you think.
 
codexcannabis

codexcannabis

Active Member
lifegoesonbrah said:
You say Libertarianism is childish, give no reason, and put everyone on ignore who disagrees. O'Reilly is that you?
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Your avatar rules.

Also, Im from the UK and thought I would add that I can only wish we had just one member of parliament comparable to Ron Paul.

I heard about the whole Rand thing and it has me baffled so im off to read some infowars.com articles and also see what Tarpley a.k.a The Brain was on about a few weeks back (he always seems to get these things spot on).
 
deprave

deprave

New Member
Illegal Smile said:
It must be frustrating. FYI, I know people who proclaim themselves to be libertarians who say their libertarianism requires them to stand up for the rights of the unborn child. And others who say it means it's the woman's body etc etc. In fact, I can find you libertarians who disagree with each other on virtually any issue. I don't see anything coherent to it at all. I think if you take away the kids who are acting out their little rebellion drama, there's nothing much to libertarianism at all. For sure they (whoever they are) are having zero impact on how history is unfolding.
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I am sorry you can't understand it, I guess you haven't read anything about libertarianism or political philosophies at all. It is very clear to every libertarian what it means and essentially you do know where a libertarian stands on every issue as far as statism vs authoritarian its quite simple..you clearly just don't grasp political philosophies vs parties? You think all Republican's or Democrats are the same and we are all only two political mindsets in this world like little robots there is only two political word views eh? We are not, They are not..Your fucking retarded quit watching Fox.

Thanks for not interpreting or speaking on anything in my previous post whatsoever in your reply to it. I addressed all this in my previous post here and your just repeating yourself. Below is my post your actually responding to here lol unbelievable:

Indeed you are, your missing a lot. There is countless ways you can be "left and for small government", any issue, the two are not even related whatsoever. Id like you to tell me how they are related and I will explain that. I can list every issue but that's pretty pointless, because yes I mean every single issue. You are pretty much denying the existence of every political philosophy known to man, you know why? Because everyone is essentially a libertarian or anarchist only to which degree is the variation, Statism is not based on philosophical understandings, it is not based on moral principles, nor rational thought. Statism is a disease and you are infected with it. This "argument" you are having IS the state, People are not the state, its only a state of mind. People are based on moral principles, ethics, philosophy, rational thought, logic. This entity known as government is not. These are the very foundations of Libertarian and Anarchist philosophies and in statism again they do not exist. It is not based on humanity or in reality.

FYI a right libertarian or anarchist would be the minority, I seriously challenge you to find me a political philosophy that is right libertarian. There is only 4 that I can think of compared to dozens upon dozens of left libertarian or anarchist philosophies and they are pretty much in the center. Minarchism (essentially a "Republican"), Market Anarchy, Neoliberalism, & Anarcho-capitalism...We had a thread about this before and came to the conclusion that there really is no such thing as a right wing libertarian, those 4 lean right but they are technically more in the center.

Tell you what just take one week off of fox news or whatever mainstream media crap is brainwashing you and go read through that wikipedia link I gave you please for the love of god.
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So, Read the highlighted part. We Libertarians and anarchist have this fundamental agreement that statism is a disease. Statism has no argument for this at all, Statisms argument is "NU UH YOUR STUPID"...This disease...You have it.....its a mental disorder. All libertarians and Anarchist recognize this and agree on it, statist do not.

There you go a fucking 1,000 word page on what libertarianism is it will take you about 15 minutes to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
 
Illegal Smile

Illegal Smile

Well-Known Member
So, how do libertarians feel about abortion? It would be an odd political philosophy that wasn't clear on a life and death issue.

You can cut and paste all you want, but the fact remains that I have never met a professed libertarian who didn't get tongue-tied and pissed off after five minutes of questioning on what that means.

ps I don't think you defined statism

pps I never put anyone on ignore for disagreeing with me
 
Mr Neutron

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
deprave said:
I am sorry you can't understand it, I guess you haven't read anything about libertarianism or political philosophies at all. It is very clear to every libertarian what it means and essentially you do know where a libertarian stands on every issue as far as statism vs authoritarian its quite simple..you clearly just don't grasp political philosophies vs parties? You think all Republican's or Democrats are the same and we are all only two political mindsets in this world like little robots there is only two political word views eh? We are not, They are not..Your fucking retarded quit watching Fox.

Thanks for not interpreting or speaking on anything in my previous post whatsoever in your reply to it. I addressed all this in my previous post here and your just repeating yourself. Below is my post your actually responding to here lol unbelievable:




So, Read the highlighted part. We Libertarians and anarchist have this fundamental agreement that statism is a disease. Statism has no argument for this at all, Statisms argument is "NU UH YOUR STUPID"...This disease...You have it.....its a mental disorder. All libertarians and Anarchist recognize this and agree on it, statist do not.

There you go a fucking 1,000 word page on what libertarianism is it will take you about 15 minutes to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
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Tried to +rep... still not spread around enough.
 
Mr Neutron

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Illegal Smile said:
So, how do libertarians feel about abortion? It would be an odd political philosophy that wasn't clear on a life and death issue.

You can cut and paste all you want, but the fact remains that I have never met a professed libertarian who didn't get tongue-tied and pissed off after five minutes of questioning on what that means.

ps I don't think you defined statism

pps I never put anyone on ignore for disagreeing with me
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I call myself a Libertarian because Classic Liberal does not mean what it used to and social liberal/fiscal conservative is too long. It is also the closest in ideals, to mine. That is what attracted me to them. I started out as a liberal democrat, saw through that BS and became a conservative republican until I found a party that thought like I did, the Libertrians.
I am against abortion being a government issue, it's a health issue. Personally, I think abortion is being used too much but I also think that there may be exceptions, ie, the life of the mother is at stake. But that should be left up to the individuals involved. Government should NEVER be involved in personal decisions like health.
I think you will find more than a couple Libertarians here that will not get tongue-tied or pissed off from being questioned.
 
lifegoesonbrah

lifegoesonbrah

Well-Known Member
Mr Neutron said:
I call myself a Libertarian because Classic Liberal does not mean what it used to and social liberal/fiscal conservative is too long. It is also the closest in ideals, to mine. That is what attracted me to them. I started out as a liberal democrat, saw through that BS and became a conservative republican until I found a party that thought like I did, the Libertrians.
I am against abortion being a government issue, it's a health issue. Personally, I think abortion is being used too much but I also think that there may be exceptions, ie, the life of the mother is at stake. But that should be left up to the individuals involved. Government should NEVER be involved in personal decisions like health.
I think you will find more than a couple Libertarians here that will not get tongue-tied or pissed off from being questioned.
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I think generally Libertarians can be for or against abortion, but all agree that the state should have nothing to do with it. Most of us don't fit into the pro-life category, which suggests that abortion is something that can be regulated (Its impossible). Nor do we fit into the pro-choice category which suggests that tax payers should be forced to fund baby murdering. I take an ideal approach to the issue, realizing that there are legitimate reasons for abortions. The people and their doctors should be left to use their own judgement on the matter, however I am against any government funded abortion programs because it is unconstitutional and unfair to the taxpayers who feel it is immoral.
 
Mr Neutron

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
lifegoesonbrah said:
I think generally Libertarians can be for or against abortion, but all agree that the state should have nothing to do with it. Most of us don't fit into the pro-life category, which suggests that abortion is something that can be regulated (Its impossible). Nor do we fit into the pro-choice category which suggests that tax payers should be forced to fund baby murdering. I take an ideal approach to the issue, realizing that there are legitimate reasons for abortions. The people and their doctors should be left to use their own judgement on the matter, however I am against any government funded abortion programs because it is unconstitutional and unfair to the taxpayers who feel it is immoral.
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... yeah... what he said. ;-)
 
Illegal Smile

Illegal Smile

Well-Known Member
Mr Neutron said:
... yeah... what he said. ;-)
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Do libertarians think the state should also stay out of other forms of murder as long as taxpayer money isn't funding it? I think an 8 month fetus would question whether that position was very liberty-enhancing for him or her. After all, the declaration of independence "did" list life before liberty.
 
lifegoesonbrah

lifegoesonbrah

Well-Known Member
Illegal Smile said:
Do libertarians think the state should also stay out of other forms of murder as long as taxpayer money isn't funding it? I think an 8 month fetus would question whether that position was very liberty-enhancing for him or her. After all, the declaration of independence "did" list life before liberty.
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What about self defense? bongsmilie


How do you propose to stop abortions?
 
Mr Neutron

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Illegal Smile said:
Do libertarians think the state should also stay out of other forms of murder as long as taxpayer money isn't funding it? I think an 8 month fetus would question whether that position was very liberty-enhancing for him or her. After all, the declaration of independence "did" list life before liberty.
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I can't speak for all Libertarians but I stated before that I think it is a health issue and therefore, the state should have no say in the manner. There are always extenuating circumstances that are better handled on a more personal level.
You are absolutely right. If you cannot protect life, what is the rest all about? I agree.
 
Harrekin

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
As far as I'm concerned, the mother should be allowed make her choice, but should be expected to have made it before week 12.

Therefore when the baby is actually "a baby" it's rights are protected but the mothers right to choose has already been protected and at that stage has passed. Her inaction at that point is her choice made in my opinion. Also like any elective surgery, it should be paid for privately.

Thats how I'd run it.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Harrekin said:
As far as I'm concerned, the mother should be allowed make her choice, but should be expected to have made it before week 12.

Therefore when the baby is actually "a baby" it's rights are protected but the mothers right to choose has already been protected and at that stage has passed. Her inaction at that point is her choice made in my opinion. Also like any elective surgery, it should be paid for privately.

Thats how I'd run it.
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What is your reasoning behind 12 weeks?
 
Harrekin

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
What is your reasoning behind 12 weeks?
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Prior to 12 weeks the child is basically unable to survive on its own, and only has a 25% chance of surviving to that point anyways.

After 12 weeks the child could potentially survive on its own and it's at that point I feel life begins, prior to that (in amoral scientific terms) it's merely symbiotic/parasitic life.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Harrekin said:
Prior to 12 weeks the child is basically unable to survive on its own, and only has a 25% chance of surviving to that point anyways.

After 12 weeks the child could potentially survive on its own and it's at that point I feel life begins, prior to that (in amoral scientific terms) it's merely symbiotic/parasitic life.
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I have made a similar argument, but based on what I know of embryology. Indeed the hinge was "when a person?".

[h=2]hu·man[/h]   [hyoo-muhn or, often, yoo‐] Show IPA
adjective 1. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or having the nature of people: human frailty.

2. consisting of people: the human race.

3. of or pertaining to the social aspect of people: human affairs.

4. sympathetic; humane: a warmly human understanding.

<span class="ital-inline"><span id="hotword"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); cursor: default;" id="hotword" name="hotword">[video=youtube;UgT5rUQ9EmQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgT5rUQ9EmQ[/video]
 
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