st0wandgrow
Well-Known Member
I'm diggin the coco too. Doing half an half coco/peat right now, but gonna try an all coco run and see how that goes
Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread
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Pattahabi
Well-Known Member
Several of these claims I have my doubts about. Can you tell me how coco 'breaks down' into potassium? I'm also curious how does coco buffer pH? And you're saying coco holds more water then peat? The sustainability would also be debatable imo.
Much respect,
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st0wandgrow
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure about the potassium thing either. Have to check that out. Coco maybe doesn't buffer ph, but it's not nearly as acidic as peat and seems to be right in range with what marijuana plants like so the liming agents aren't as crucial. I would have to agree that coco is more sustainable than peat. It's a bi-product of an already existing industry, where as peat is harvested from bogs that take thousands of years to form, and the harvesting disrupts delicate ecosystems.
Pattahabi
Well-Known Member
Hey Stow, I don't consider peat to more sustainable because of the distance it has to travel. Coco certainly does not buffer pH. Do you know what the cec of coco coir vs peat is? I often hear conflicting numbers on this. I was thinking peat had about 50% more cec.
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st0wandgrow
Well-Known Member
I believe you're right about the cec which is why I haven't eliminated it from my base. I still consider coco coir a more sustainable product all things considered. Yes it has to be shipped from over seas, or islands where coconuts are grown, but peat has to be shipped from northern Canada, and there are huge bogs discovered in Africa recently too.... and you know those will be exploited soon, so the shipping is a bit of a wash IMO. A product called "RePeat" looks promising too. It's supposedly just composted dairy cattle manure
Pattahabi
Well-Known Member
I accidentally said I don't think peat is as sustainable. In reality, I think it's a 6 one way, half a dozen the other. Maybe if sustainability is your main concern use leaf mulch and rice hulls? I think we'll run out of oil before peat lol.
This is from that same text, I don't know about peat harvested in the US, I'd need to look into that more:
The cec issue would make me think it would be far easier to keep pH in balance - if that was a concern. pH and liming are of such little concern to me that I hate to even mention it.
Coco does wet initially easier, but from what I read, peat holds water longer. This is my anecdotal experience as well.
Maybe this is a stupid thought, but I always wonder how 'organic' those coconut shells are? Do they use fertilizers/pesticides on coconuts?
Also, peat is alive. Lots of microbes in there. I've even heard MM suggest throwing a pinch of peat in your compost for an added variety of micro organisms.
P-
hyroot
Well-Known Member
coco vs peat. Utah state university crop physiology lab
http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/factsheet/pub__9468201.pdf
http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/factsheet/pub__9468201.pdf
canadiankushman
Well-Known Member
I'm from one of the places in Canada where they open strip mine the peat out of the pristine forests. Brings a tear to my eye..
All coco for this grower, amended with gypsum and dolomitic lime. It appears the girls are loving it!
Ck.
All coco for this grower, amended with gypsum and dolomitic lime. It appears the girls are loving it!
Ck.
canadiankushman
Well-Known Member
I went easy on both products mind you..
Ck.
Ck.
st0wandgrow
Well-Known Member
P, did you see in that same article where they mentioned that coir has an extremely high amount of K ....... so Don Teslas Potassium comment holds true.
st0wandgrow
Well-Known Member
I agree Ck. I have yet to hear a convincing enough argument for me to believe that using a bi-product of the coconut industry is more enviornmentally unfriendly than harvesting peat bogs.
The fact that I'm a Canuck, and the bogs up there get pillaged might make me a bit biased.
canadiankushman
Well-Known Member
Now if they sail them coco husks here under wind-powered vessels we would all be just tickled.. 
DonPetro
Well-Known Member
Don't doubt the Don's knowledge too much. Coir certainly does break down and in doing so releases K. Peat will bring your pH down over time if you are recycling your soil mix. Coir may not "buffer" pH so much but is certainly more forgiving and sustainable in the long term. Great topic though.
hyroot
Well-Known Member
coco comes from many places. Alot come from Mexico and South America. Tropical regions. of course hawaii, fiji, tahiti, jamaica etc... All the coconuts in the markets locally around here all come from Mexico.
coco , when it does break down it does release potassium. I first heard that from Sub and that was his reasoning for not adding kelp to the original super soil recipe. I thought that was common knowledge in the organic section.. I've been saying that for years.
one of the authors of that study Dr. Bruce Bugbee is also the owner and founder of Apogee Instruments . He has quite a bit of studies on lighting / spectra.. effect of emmerson effect, infrared, uv lighting etc...
coco , when it does break down it does release potassium. I first heard that from Sub and that was his reasoning for not adding kelp to the original super soil recipe. I thought that was common knowledge in the organic section.. I've been saying that for years.
one of the authors of that study Dr. Bruce Bugbee is also the owner and founder of Apogee Instruments . He has quite a bit of studies on lighting / spectra.. effect of emmerson effect, infrared, uv lighting etc...
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DonTesla
Well-Known Member
First of all I was stating this based on the Revs book.. TLO, see pages 51, 63, 89, 97 and 198..
my bro and him are buddies, i will be contacting him to ask him a couple things.. stay tuned for his response to back up his claims in his True Living Organcis book.
Meanwhile..
@Pattahabi
1. ay mon, I no big Peat Bog Lover, and I aint trying to convert ya, but yes that thought was inaccurate Coir has no chemicals added. It is a natural bybroduct of the coconut industry, a seasoned husker can separate 2000 coconuts a day by hand… the fruits of that labour, which we can buy locally, at any store, and get shipped for cheap anywhere in North America (from Canada). It is 100% organic, bro. Grown in the sun, dried by the sun, rinsed by natural water to lower the salt content. I can't speak for all dee Dons, but I want Jamaican Coir. RAS TA FARIIIII
2. Coir is naturally rich in potassium. it has high sodium too but the rinsing naturally washes the salts out. Coir, unlike coco peat which lasts 20 years, is very biodegradable so in organic growing it breaks down quite quickly, becoming its elemental profile, which is mainly potassium, great for flowering, of course.. even the worms and micro life eat it, and love it. so stop hating it, mon! hating is bad
if u want, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coir
3. As for the buffering, it just prevents dips due to its non-low pH. asking more from the Rev on this.. Here is what else it says on Wiki under buffering: "Once any remaining salts have been leached out of the coir pith, it and the coir bark become suitable substrates for cultivating fungi". (read as Myco Fungo for us) .. It continues, "Coir is naturally rich in potassium..The material's high lignin content is longer lasting, holds more water, and does not shrink off the sides of the pot when dry allowing for easier rewetting." Im trying to get facts on the water weight it holds and time. @Pattahabi Where did you read Peat holds water longer?
4. RE adding peat to compost. Adding anything different to your compost is good, as long as the type of diversity you're striving for is congruent to the type of material you are adding, a great book on composting tweaks is THE RODALE BOOK OF COMPOSTING, it breaks down what the percentages of Compostion of all materials that you can compost, even different types of leaves like oak and poplar etc.. see page 118 for this awesome 5 page chart.. only problem is COIR and Peat Moss are two of the items missing in this otherwise very comprehensive chart. Must dig more.. But yea in my opinion I'm winning this argument. Especially considering this a soil recycling thread and your main evidence thus far against COIR is a from a SOILESS EXPERIEMENT. Gypsum is something we should all be adding anyway, its supposed to be a crazy enhancer of flavours and help terpene profiles truly blossom. According to the Rev's opinion and experience. I have yet to incorporate it but i plan to.. not because of what that study says either.. you can't compare soilless experiments to this argument, because the soil diversity is what it is all about.. try pull organic marijuana ROLS experiments for better compare and contrasts, that is irrelevant IMO, much respect tho, this is good for the game of organics
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DonTesla
Well-Known Member
Appreciate the digging my brotha, but i have to say, this was a funny thing to reference.. the study is flawed.
They used no soil. We use soil. Its all about the soil here. There, They used 2 or 3 ingredients, we use over 20.
For two, they added stuff to Peat container (Lime) that they did not add to the Coir containers. ("cause it wasn't needed".. yet how does that effect the experiments. its apples vs oranges, they compare a 2 ingredient base vs a 3 ingredient base for the whole thing)
Third, they used HPS lights in that experiment, which for us organic growers, MH and LEDs are, according to the Revs personal experience, is supposedly more suited to nutrient uptake vs the HPS way with its commercial soup style feeding..
DonTesla
Well-Known Member
I'd like to see the EC (Electrical Conductivity) on some ROLS mixes, as opposed to these 2 and 3-ingredient soilless bases, and i would also like to know if those brands of coir are any good to begin with. I checked out the Sri Lanka website they say EC and pH is ideal, it holds 10x its weight in water, and is 80:1 Carbon to Nitrogen (just not sure if these guys make coir, it might be coco peat.. which would only widen the gap on its relevance but still, very good topic, we gotta hash this out