Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread

[calliandra]

Thanks for getting back so quickly, calliandra. I have kept red wigglers for 6 years or so... I had great ambitions for their production, but I still haven't been able to separate them from their bedding/castings very productively so they are mainly "pets" now. I'm just now discovering the idea of letting them live out their years eating, pooping and loving in my indoor beds. Now I'm wondering what the heck do they eat until the ROLS system gets into gear and they have some rotting mj leaves to munch on? They're used to fruit and veggies from the inside kitchen. I thought of blending in up and pouring the smoothie over the soil in between the plants, but that seem pretty wild so I want to hear from others first.

Also quite a colony of soil gnats has built up over the years in the bin. There aren't many now due to the near frost temps at night now, but I'm sure there are eggs galore in the worm bin "soil".

I control the gnats in my indoor beds now by letting the top of the soil dry out and keeping my air tubes covered with nylons. Seems like I won't be able to do the former with this new approach so the "living" part of ROLS happens. From what little I know about earthworms feeding isn't a problem, but I don't really want worms of any type crawling all over my rooms searching for a viable environment as a friend reported to me he did. I'm sure there is a link somewhere, but I haven't come across it yet.

Ah what you describe there is a chcken-and-egg-dilemma I've been in too
Mulching and keeping that interface to the soil super-active with microbes is the perfect place for fungus gnats haha
So my reasoning was to cut down the fungus gnats first, and then move back to mulching and all that.

I covered my soil with 4cm quartz sand, creating a pretty effective barrier to interrupt the egg-laying cycle of the gnats: the flies not having access to nice and humid conditions to lay their eggs in, and larvae-turned-flies have such a hard time crawling out from beneath the sand they die in the attempt, or shortly after.
BUT that was all I did. And it seems there were still plenty of eggs in the soil anyways, because when I removed the sand layer, the gnats were back.
What I should've done was to add BT and SF mnematodes to the soil under that sand: it had perfectly moist conditions (the worms were right up there eating too!), better and more constant than my previous attempts to introduce nematodes using just mulch as cover. So that's going to be my next move.

What I did do to keep my plant happy whilst having that sand on, and given my microherd wasn't looking spectacular, was exactly what you are pondering: feeding living matter smoothies.

I think it worked pretty well, seeing the Sour Stomper auto I was growing came out twice the size it usually gets and yielded accordingly haha

 

[GreenSanta]

Ah what you describe there is a chcken-and-egg-dilemma I've been in too
Mulching and keeping that interface to the soil super-active with microbes is the perfect place for fungus gnats haha
So my reasoning was to cut down the fungus gnats first, and then move back to mulching and all that.

I covered my soil with 4cm quartz sand, creating a pretty effective barrier to interrupt the egg-laying cycle of the gnats: the flies not having access to nice and humid conditions to lay their eggs in, and larvae-turned-flies have such a hard time crawling out from beneath the sand they die in the attempt, or shortly after.
BUT that was all I did. And it seems there were still plenty of eggs in the soil anyways, because when I removed the sand layer, the gnats were back.
What I should've done was to add BT and SF mnematodes to the soil under that sand: it had perfectly moist conditions (the worms were right up there eating too!), better and more constant than my previous attempts to introduce nematodes using just mulch as cover. So that's going to be my next move.

What I did do to keep my plant happy whilst having that sand on, and given my microherd wasn't looking spectacular, was exactly what you are pondering: feeding living matter smoothies.
View attachment 3845995
I think it worked pretty well, seeing the Sour Stomper auto I was growing came out twice the size it usually gets and yielded accordingly haha

buy nematodes for gnats, I did that a few years ago, I have never had to deal with them again. You see, If you re-use your soil and use good home made compost it should have nematodes in it and you should never have to fight them again. You might have to do a double application of nematodes, but I never had to, not for gnats. Also, know where they come from, you want freshly harvested nematodes from a reputable company, unless you have a microscope, you dont know if they are still alive and well! You will know if they were alive though because you apply that shit once and they are all gone!! double application is still a good idea if you are that worried but honestly gnats are the easiest pest! One of the worst place to buy nematodes is at the garden centers, nematodes sit in the fridge far too long, go right to the source. 5 million nematodes should cover a nice size garden, veg and flower.

The way they work is really mind blowing too, as long as a few nematodes reach target pest and kaboom they multiply exponentially. nematodes dont actually eat the gnats or anything it's actually the fungus gnats larvae that are eating the nematodes, there is a nematode-bacterium symbiosis that exist and its the bacteria that the nematode takes along for the ride that does the killing, really cool stuff. I dont know how to explain like a nematologist would but nematodes are a fascinating creature and part of evolution.

 

[bizfactory]

buy nematodes for gnats, I did that a few years ago, I have never had to deal with them again. You see, If you re-use your soil and use good home made compost it should have nematodes in it and you should never have to fight them again. You might have to do a double application of nematodes, but I never had to, not for gnats. Also, know where they come from, you want freshly harvested nematodes from a reputable company, unless you have a microscope, you dont know if they are still alive and well! You will know if they were alive though because you apply that shit once and they are all gone!! double application is still a good idea if you are that worried but honestly gnats are the easiest pest! One of the worst place to buy nematodes is at the garden centers, nematodes sit in the fridge far too long, go right to the source. 5 million nematodes should cover a nice size garden, veg and flower.

The way they work is really mind blowing too, as long as a few nematodes reach target pest and kaboom they multiply exponentially. nematodes dont actually eat the gnats or anything it's actually the fungus gnats larvae that are eating the nematodes, there is a nematode-bacterium symbiosis that exist and its the bacteria that the nematode takes along for the ride that does the killing, really cool stuff. I dont know how to explain like a nematologist would but nematodes are a fascinating creature and part of evolution.

I've been fighting them on and off for over a year. I also had another buddy tell me the same thing in regards to nematodes and gnats, swore by them. Do you have any suggestions on species or good sources?

 

[platt]

If its a serious source they will mention you the date of delivery.

 

[calliandra]

buy nematodes for gnats, I did that a few years ago, I have never had to deal with them again. You see, If you re-use your soil and use good home made compost it should have nematodes in it and you should never have to fight them again. You might have to do a double application of nematodes, but I never had to, not for gnats. Also, know where they come from, you want freshly harvested nematodes from a reputable company, unless you have a microscope, you dont know if they are still alive and well! You will know if they were alive though because you apply that shit once and they are all gone!! double application is still a good idea if you are that worried but honestly gnats are the easiest pest! One of the worst place to buy nematodes is at the garden centers, nematodes sit in the fridge far too long, go right to the source. 5 million nematodes should cover a nice size garden, veg and flower.

The way they work is really mind blowing too, as long as a few nematodes reach target pest and kaboom they multiply exponentially. nematodes dont actually eat the gnats or anything it's actually the fungus gnats larvae that are eating the nematodes, there is a nematode-bacterium symbiosis that exist and its the bacteria that the nematode takes along for the ride that does the killing, really cool stuff. I dont know how to explain like a nematologist would but nematodes are a fascinating creature and part of evolution.

Well it's great they worked as expected for you! I'm jealous!

I tried twice without any luck at all, ordering from a company that ships them directly, coolpack included in summer. The second time, I did have a microscope and could see the nematodes were alive. And still. They didn't take, though I was mulching and keeping everything nicely moist too.

Though I didn't understand it at the time, now I am beginning to think that maybe my soil was too bacterial for the SF to survive in the longer term. There were always way more protozoans feeding on the bacteria than nematodes.
Today, I took a look at the worm compost I am purposely making to be more fungal, and there were lots of nematodes, and different ones, in there.
Do you think that could be it?

 

[Tomula]

If you want to fight bugs the organic way, get your hands on some diatomaceous earth and spray or sprinkle it on your plant or onto your soil. It has to be food grade. What it does? It is composed of tiny sharp particles it cuts the bug's skin dehydrating it and finally killing it. It is very versatile it can get rid of many bugs on your plant. I dunno how the worms like it and you might kill spiders with it too. Just my two cents. Cheers!

 

[GreenSanta]

Well it's great they worked as expected for you! I'm jealous!

I tried twice without any luck at all, ordering from a company that ships them directly, coolpack included in summer. The second time, I did have a microscope and could see the nematodes were alive. And still. They didn't take, though I was mulching and keeping everything nicely moist too.

Though I didn't understand it at the time, now I am beginning to think that maybe my soil was too bacterial for the SF to survive in the longer term. There were always way more protozoans feeding on the bacteria than nematodes.
Today, I took a look at the worm compost I am purposely making to be more fungal, and there were lots of nematodes, and different ones, in there.
Do you think that could be it?

what microscope are you using?

 

[calliandra]

what microscope are you using?

I have this one, which is what Elaine Ingham was recommending at the time, seeing I don't have a microscope dealer in my town anymore :/
http://www.microscopenet.com/40x400x-binocular-compound-siedentopf-microscope-with-builtin-digital-camera-soil-p-9814.html
She's recommending a newer one now though.

It's essential it has an Iris diaphragm, so it can do shadowing, otherwise you don't stand a chance of seeing anything.
Haha funny, just yesterday I took a comparison pic of a view without and with shadowing just for curiosity's sake.


And while I'm at it
In this much more fungal environment, I'm beginning to see more diversity in nematodes:
at 400x (my max, sometimes I'd really like to get closer!):
This one's either predatory because of those wide jaws and the sort of "tooth" at the front end. Or, if those inward-curvings are not a tooth, it's an omnivore who eats bacteria alot but can also munch algae.

And this one is definitely a bacterial feeder,
frilly lips, narrow straight mouth, very typical.
left of it a big flagellate, probably a peranema trichophorum in this case - got lucky searching googlepix & reading characterizations on this one, doesn't happen often for me - yet? haha


Cheers!

 

[WindyCityKush]

@Lilwatt ....check this thread out too if you haven't already.

 

[NaturalFarmer]

It's essential it has an Iris diaphragm, so it can do shadowing, otherwise you don't stand a chance of seeing anything.
Haha funny, just yesterday I took a comparison pic of a view without and with shadowing just for curiosity's sake.
View attachment 3848474 View attachment 3848475

!

Night and day. Awesome knowledge to know before buying. Do you know what model she recommends now by any chance? Or you for that matter?

 

[calliandra]

Night and day. Awesome knowledge to know before buying. Do you know what model she recommends now by any chance? Or you for that matter?

Ah I went blind on recommendation in the end, I was too impatient to learn about microscopes and what's important and all that. So I can't really say much. From my personal experience with the one I have, it does the job. The software sucks, but should be replaceable if I ever get round to looking into that
The ones Ingham is recommending now are a tad more expensive
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/Microscopes.html
Personally, I'd be tempted by the second one, where you have to buy the cam extra, but then are free to choose a cam really to your liking.

Are you looking into getting one then!

 

[NaturalFarmer]

Great link thank you. Yeah in the next few months if I can afford it. Slowly it has become more of a need than a want.

 

[calliandra]

Great link thank you. Yeah in the next few months if I can afford it. Slowly it has become more of a need than a want.

Yeah if we really want to know what's going on, we've got to check. Though I do get this feeling that over time using the microscope as support, we won't really need it anymore as we develop a new feel for what good soil is like using our natural senses.

You'll love it, want or need, that'S for sure!

 

[Aruanda]

Whew! 392 pages and 7,814 messages read later! Hahaha.

Finally made it to the end of this long thread. It becomes even greater of an accomplishment as time goes on, lol. IMHO, it's well worth it to read most of the thread or at least the first 70-100 pages as a few have already suggested. Decided to hold off on skipping ahead to ask anything and as I went, certain topics came up that cleared my questions and made way for others. It does a service to the group to do so as repetitive questions don't clutter up the thread, just my two pence.

Anyway, wanted to first give my thanks to @headtreep (not sure why I can't tag you but ok), and to all the contributors to this excellent thread.


I gotta say, even as someone with 7+ years experience in gardening and multiple certifications from Permaculture to Syntropic Ag, I myself got duped into thinking I needed some bottled stuff to grow cannabis when the time came. Container gardening is a new field for me too. Anyway, completed my first run recently using an organic base mix and a few BioBizz products. About a month in I found this thread and began reading and am now looking to amend my mix in a sort of revised Clackamas Coot's mix. My current mix is as such:

~54L (1.9cu ft.) total:
Perlite - 30%
Vermiculite - 5.5%
SPM - 30%
Coco pith/fiber - 15%
EWC - 16.6%
Biochar - 2.7%

So 38.3% Aeration, 45% soiless medium, and 16.6% EWC (Humus). The EWC I had from my own bin which I started like 2 years ago, but I didn't have enough at the time to make it 33% of the base.

I had added nothing else to this mix and the dynamic with the BioBizz products was a bit whacky. Anyway, I've managed to seek out, mostly online, the amendments I'll need (I'm not in the states so one has to be resourceful). So to this mix I'll add enough vermicompost to bring the percentage up to 30% (hopefully I'll have enough this time) as well as:

(Per cu.ft.):
- 1/2cup Neem meal
- 1/2cup kelp meal
- 1/2cup crustacean meal (crab/shrimp)
- 1/2cup fish meal
- 1/2cup Castor bean meal (5-0-0)

4 cups of some minerals (per cu.ft.):
3x Basalt
2x another rock dust mix
1x Bentonite
1x Oyster shell flour (or should this be 1/2cup per cu.ft.?)

Also to this mix (per cu.ft.):

- 1/2cup Gypsum
- 1/4cup SRP (what are people's arguments for NOT using soft rock phosphate?)
- Maybe a few tbsp of Dolo lime (Just cause I have it).

I'd also like to add some more diversified aeration material as the percentages will become altered with more EWC. I'm thinking of adding chunky coconut fiber/chips (I forget who suggested this idea but thanks!), rice hulls and perhaps some more inoculated Biochar. I forget who also said it but I'd also like to experiment with the cacao shells and I've given some thought to using Brazil nut shells as well. Trying to use what is local and explore new possibilities in my own context (let's just say I'm in the DEEP south, lol). I'll have to also solicit seafood restaurants or the fish market for the crab/shrimp and process it myself as I can't find any ready product (not a big fan of eating either of them, so will have to scavenge).

I'm going to try and source a few cups of forest soil, pasture soil and some soil from a transition zone between the two ecosystems and add it to my mix before cooking. May order the 6 Biodynamic compost preparations to structure the soil too. Thinking I'll then brew a simple AACT with EWC and indigenous soils halfway through the cooking and soak in while mixing. Wild harvesting some indigenous soils may be a bit difficult cause most of the soils where I am are Oxisols/Ultisols and a really weathered clay profile. I have been playing with the idea of dissolving a handful of clay soil in water and watering in (thanks to @Mohican ) for the CEC benefits. Depending how the soil pans out maybe I'll just collect IMO with cooked rice under a bambuzal and mix that in during the cooking. I'm not too worried about picking up any pathogens or anything as I know there will be beneficials to balance everything out. I'll be using some Stump Tea Myco or Rootwise inoculant on seeds and transplant roots as well. Also got some Grokashi coming my way to experiment with.

I'm thinking of trying to run 7gal and later 10-15 and would like to see how many cycles I can get, maybe 3-5, before dumping and reamending.

Well, sorry for the long winded post, glad to be here!

 

[Aruanda]

Ah, the EWC/Vermicompost.

So I had been recycling my kitchen scraps and trying to close some material loops at home with my red wiggler friends for some time. But only now reading this thread did I get the idea to amend my bin (soon to be bins) with certain elements that I'd like to potencialize/make bioavailable to my plants. I had been adding egg shells and oyster shell powder every so often but now I am also adding some bone meal and canna ashes and stems and I'll probably start adding some other things as they come (botanicals, etc.). But that was a real 'ah-hah!' moment for me in learning that. Got that whole Vermicomposters unite thread to be inspired by next.

Besides rock dusts, oyster shell powder, bone/blood meal, SST solids, botanicals, etc., what are some things people like adding?

 

[Fastslappy]

My worms luv sum cooked pinto beans ,had large batch stick on me & feed it to bin
week later mass of worms going to town on them

 

[Aruanda]

My biggest question that I held off on asking this whole time reading but which never seemed to come up:

So we build this base mix with various elements, peat, coconut, EWC, leaf mold, rice hulls, etc. All most of these elements have a half life and break down in soil except for certain inert elements which have a different timeline, ok. People add topdressings of EWC and most would say their soil gets better with time. One thing I'm curious about is understanding these half lives of our soil elements and how over time the percentage (%) of humus/humic carbon materials increases as they break down plus the addition of topdress increases that %. What kind of considerations should be made in regard to the half lives of these elements if trying to also maintain those elements in balance in the soil? For instance, when peat breaks down, what characteristics of it become altered in the soil profile? Does one need to account for the altered characteristics of coconut coir in terms of its aeration capacity when it breaks down? Maybe I'm over thinking this or maybe the answer is just really simple...

Container gardening is interesting and I would agree with the sentiment expressed by a few on here already that not all broad acre farming practices necessarily translate to container gardening.

No-till is an ideal based on the evidence of erosion, compaction, microbiota loss, destruction of habitat, leeching, etc. in tillage systems. I think it works to a degree with potted plants, it would seem the volume of soil is a major factor in success as some are doing 20 cycles or more in large volumes. I'm not contesting that, as there are many that could attest.
One thing I've heard from a mentor's observations of a system in Germany with canna (or possibly hemp, but I believe it still applies) was that they use a 7 year crop rotation. This means that year 1 they plant out canna on one plot and the next 6 years it goes to other crops and pastoral use where livestock till and deposit manure before cycling back to canna once again. As a nutrient demanding crop, this type of rotation makes sense to restore nutrients and probably goes a long ways towards pest resistance as well. This would reflect a recent poster's sentiment about rotating a crop in containers between canna to not always be monocropping (sorry, can't recall the OP's name).

Cover cropping in this context is interesting and after reading everyone's experience here I think I have to try different things for some time and come to my own conclusions. It would seem to me that rotating cover crops with various root structures and depths would help aerate the soil and would work well for a no till setup. But then again, how are the canna roots acting in this manner?
The whole clover debate is interesting too. One person's experience here gave me the impression that it may work well as a trap plant for spider mites (but if it's what attracts them in the first place?). I also wonder if mixing it with other plants that deter spider mites may allow you to still reap the benefits of the N fixing clover while not attracting mites? I'd like to experiment with sowing clover and others going into flower and assuring there's a CFL bulb below the canopy to supplement light. If it supplies just the right amount of N, then going into flower it could work towards preventing the fade. I wonder if the plants would produce better having that balanced N through flower and not fading out?

 

[ShLUbY]

So we build this base mix with various elements, peat, coconut, EWC, leaf mold, rice hulls, etc. All most of these elements have a half life and break down in soil except for certain inert elements which have a different timeline, ok. People add topdressings of EWC and most would say their soil gets better with time. One thing I'm curious about is understanding these half lives of our soil elements and how over time the percentage (%) of humus/humic carbon materials increases as they break down plus the addition of topdress increases that %. What kind of considerations should be made in regard to the half lives of these elements if trying to also maintain those elements in balance in the soil? For instance, when peat breaks down, what characteristics of it become altered in the soil profile? Does one need to account for the altered characteristics of coconut coir in terms of its aeration capacity when it breaks down? Maybe I'm over thinking this or maybe the answer is just really simple...

the short answer is, I don't know. however, these things are becoming a feel.... you can tell when pumice, perlite has broke down, the mix feels too heavy. you will lose peat to erosion. you will notice that you didn't need to re-amend so much humus because the mix feels muddy/heavy when wet. it's not an exact recipe... that's the beauty!

No-till is an ideal based on the evidence of erosion, compaction, microbiota loss, destruction of habitat, leeching, etc. in tillage systems. I think it works to a degree with potted plants, it would seem the volume of soil is a major factor in success as some are doing 20 cycles or more in large volumes. I'm not contesting that, as there are many that could attest.
One thing I've heard from a mentor's observations of a system in Germany with canna (or possibly hemp, but I believe it still applies) was that they use a 7 year crop rotation. This means that year 1 they plant out canna on one plot and the next 6 years it goes to other crops and pastoral use where livestock till and deposit manure before cycling back to canna once again. As a nutrient demanding crop, this type of rotation makes sense to restore nutrients and probably goes a long ways towards pest resistance as well. This would reflect a recent poster's sentiment about rotating a crop in containers between canna to not always be monocropping (sorry, can't recall the OP's name).

the fact is.... you are tailoring your soil indoors for cannabis. you don't need to worry about monocropping because you are putting back nutrients to the soil. sure you can do N fixing rotations but is it necessary? not really....

the way cannabis (and many other plants) in a real natural environment feed is by taking nutrients in solution from the top horizon of soil (generally referred to as the Organic Layer), and taking water from the lower horizons (sub layers). so as your lower layer of soil becomes more depleted of nutrients, you are amending nutrients into the top of the soil, as is done in nature when leaves fall to the ground, and things die and break down.

Cover cropping in this context is interesting and after reading everyone's experience here I think I have to try different things for some time and come to my own conclusions. It would seem to me that rotating cover crops with various root structures and depths would help aerate the soil and would work well for a no till setup. But then again, how are the canna roots acting in this manner?

in general (living) plant roots contain hormones and chemicals they create that deter other plant species roots from growing into one another. so having a living cover crop makes canna roots dive deeper into the soil.

If it supplies just the right amount of N, then going into flower it could work towards preventing the fade. I wonder if the plants would produce better having that balanced N through flower and not fading out?

you dont want to prevent the fade. the fade is natural. the most beautiful time of the whole flower production is the end when you have purples and yellows and reds and oranges and light greens all on one plant. you should be inducing the fade by letting ice melt on the soil above your root system, and even decreasing the amount of water they get for the last bit of the flowering cycle. the cold water will start to slow down microbial activity, and less water will be less feeding done by the plant.

hope this answers some of your Qs

 

[ShLUbY]

Hey everyone....

looking for people who clone only with aloe....

i use an aeroponic cloner. my normal method would take a cup of water in a mason jar, put 5-8 drops of rooting gel in it, stir it around and put the cuttings in that solution for 24hrs and then into the 5 gal cloner they went until ready for soil.

for aloe with that same kind of process... would i mix say 1-2 tbsp of gel into 1-1.5 cups of water and then let the stems soak for 24 hours.... maybe change it after 12 hours? and then straight into the cloner....

 

[sgarcata]

Why do you have rocks under the soil?

sorry for delay... bunch of "life" stepped in. I was following Soma's approach... think it has to do with getting oxygen down there plus a place for excess water to collect out of the soil.