Salts and microbes

meangreengrowinmachine said:

I think you are confusing the terms extracting and synthesizing.

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Possibly

Maybe the world should have a pee on your compost pile day every month.lol.

Samwell Seed Well said:

Confusing a very specific process term to some other usuage..usage...

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I'm just on a Haber process trip....

It is true that salts once dissolved in water dissociate into ions that are indistinguishable from naturally sourced ones but EDTA chelated iron, for instance, is not natural. Synthesized and synthetic, or artificial. There are artificial PGRs too if those are considered "fertilizer."

The magic of natural ions vs. synthetic ones is something I've harped on before. Where the roots hit the medium the plant can't tell the difference between ammonia sourced from the Haber process and ammonia from compost (though a lot of that nitrogen was probably fixed with Haber and fossil fuel sometime before it became an organic fertilizer.) However, it does make a difference in the soil microbiome and that might make a difference in your Cannabis produce but it hasn't been studied well.

Fermentation...biosythesiis...idk maybe this is what I thought inwas referencing...not necessarily what we mean either

Observe & Report said:

I'm just on a Haber process trip....

...Where the roots hit the medium the plant can't tell the difference between ammonia sourced from the Haber process and ammonia from compost (though a lot of that nitrogen was probably fixed with Haber and fossil fuel sometime before it became an organic fertilizer.) However, it does make a difference in the soil microbiome and that might make a difference in your Cannabis produce but it hasn't been studied well.

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This is true, I'm Def not suggesting anything dump a bunch of general hydro in their living soil... just saying the exact relationship isn't as black and white ... although some aspect are... a fully functioning organic systems needs no additional nutrients. So why add any, and cumulative benefits of organics can't easily be found with daily applications in any media

Samwell Seed Well said:

This is true, I'm Def not suggesting anything dump a bunch of general hydro in their living soil... just saying the exact relationship isn't as black and white ... although some aspect are... a fully functioning organic systems needs no additional nutrients. So why add any, and cumulative benefits of organics can't easily be found with daily applications in any media

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I agree but all the time people come here and they are biting their nails over adding a little CaNO3 or MgSO4 to correct a deficiency in the middle of their organic grow. Sometimes people here say ignorant shit like "The salts and chemicals in the bottled nutes will kill off any microbes. Most liquid nutrient have either phosphoric acid or calcium nitrates as a ph stabilizer. Those will both kill off microbes."

Observe & Report said:

I'm just on a Haber process trip....

It is true that salts once dissolved in water dissociate into ions that are indistinguishable from naturally sourced ones but EDTA chelated iron, for instance, is not natural. Synthesized and synthetic, or artificial. There are artificial PGRs too if those are considered "fertilizer."

The magic of natural ions vs. synthetic ones is something I've harped on before. Where the roots hit the medium the plant can't tell the difference between ammonia sourced from the Haber process and ammonia from compost (though a lot of that nitrogen was probably fixed with Haber and fossil fuel sometime before it became an organic fertilizer.) However, it does make a difference in the soil microbiome and that might make a difference in your Cannabis produce but it hasn't been studied well.

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Yes! And considering how much we are just now learning about how much our own biome really plays a huge part on a ton of other interactions in Our bodies. I believe that plants may be similar. Also the proof is in the pudding ime

VincenzioVonHook said:

I see a lot of people with deficiencies waiting for a top dress to kick in or a tea to brew, and figured it might be handy for those who want an easy pick me up for their deficient plant without assuming they have killed the microbiology somehow from one feed.

I know I have been in that boat (being new to organics was rough first time around and dealt with a N and K deficiency in flower) and was anxiously waiting for a top dress to show results.

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I do this very thing, I don’t have the soil volume to go the distance so I end up starting as organic and when the deficiency starts I hit it with a made for hydro nutrient. This way it gets what it’s deficient in and the micros as well. Plants are very quick to turn the corner.

Northwood said:

It can't be that important considering the full chapter doesn't contradict their summary provided in the Abstract, particularly the effect on the abundance of SOM. It's quite obvious that in soil where bacterial biomass of any type is primarily constrained by available nitrogen, then adding N in any form will increase microbial biomass.

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Whoops. My bad.

I somehow missed reading the first line of your post, to which I concede the point.

What is the limit to or proper range of bacterial biomass before it becomes detrimental?

ComfortCreator said:

What is the limit to or proper range of bacterial biomass before it becomes detrimental?

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you mean like so they destroy themselves? that's hard to say and most likely depending on many factors... the stuff in your gut may consist of up to 30% of bacteria, and they surely like it there lol
but I heard of cultures that may kill themselves via their secrets, self-induced pH changes (too much H+ released) or via heat (think composting e.g.)

btw chelation is needed in synthetics to prevent complexion, when you have all these ions already in solution, they can attract them electro-chemically.
in organics - not so much, since the feed for most part isn't much ionic initially. When MOs break it down locally there is a minor chance it complexes to salts, I've had living soil cooking in plastic sacks, after months when repacking the bottom crystals burned on human skin like mild acid. Conversely the good side to organic feeding, if I may pick up N, is it comes in different forms, like urea, ammonia & nitrate. Urea is non-ionic and can be passively assimilated by plants, so it trickles much slower in, unlike nitrate. Feeding urea prevents/ mitigates some of the "evil" form of nitrate - nitrite - which is always present, to a minor degree, when nitrate is present and it causes cancer in humans, and is esp. dangerous for babies.

I don’t see why they would. Npk salts aren’t antimicrobial.

waktoo said:

"The direct effects of the application of synthetic fertilizer on soil microbiota may be positive or negative and depends upon the duration, type, amount, and manner in which the fertilizer is applied."

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that pretty much sums up what i was trying to say without all the bullshit thrown in. That's it's not a hard and fast "you have destroyed your soil life with that feeding of salts" case. More based around application. A light feeding of salts could be beneficial in cases where clear deficiencies rapidly arise or the microbiome is missing something integral , where throwing in something like a 0:50:0 "because heavy P during flower will make dank boulders" will throw everything out of whack.

meangreengrowinmachine said:

Force feeding aka salts is very different imo then having the organic material readily available for the microbes and rhizomes to have there own cationic exchange. I'm not saying that the force feeding way doesn't work.. but I'm also a person that raises their own chickens to eat so I don't have to eat a chicken that sat on a rack with a feeding tube in its neck. The 2 are comparable to me. I understand not everyone has the same opinion. This is a debate that goes far beyond cannibas.

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i dont think anyone has mentioned "force feeding" salts at all here. More along the lines of "salts can have a positive or negative effect on soil life depending on use"

It was more mentioned because the majority of times here when someone come across a rapid deficiency in an organic medium and wants to know if a feeding or two of salts could be beneficial, the answer is "you will kill your soil life", "only if you want to feed with salts from then on, they kill soil life"

No one is mentioning "force feeding salts", just that they don't straight up kill soil life if used correctly. Seems pretty level headed to me.

Samwell Seed Well said:

Yup..bro scicne

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It seems like most seems tend to favor it around here. Even when you prove them wrong, they still try to argue or put up a fight in defense to their strong belief of the "bro science".

I

catdaddy516 said:

It seems like most seems tend to favor it around here. Even when you prove them wrong, they still try to argue or put up a fight in defense to their strong belief of the "bro science".

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That's peoples cognitive dissonance, we all exhibit it at times.... let's change wanting to be right to ..

Waiting to be accurate

VincenzioVonHook said:

i dont think anyone has mentioned "force feeding" salts at all here. More along the lines of "salts can have a positive or negative effect on soil life depending on use"

It was more mentioned because the majority of times here when someone come across a rapid deficiency in an organic medium and wants to know if a feeding or two of salts could be beneficial, the answer is "you will kill your soil life", "only if you want to feed with salts from then on, they kill soil life"

No one is mentioning "force feeding salts", just that they don't straight up kill soil life if used correctly. Seems pretty level headed to me.

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I mean feeding a plant a pretty chelated salt product is basically what I meant by force feeding. I do agree that one or two doses is not going to totally kill off your microbes but continual use will. Which sadly is what happens with the factory farming system. But do agree that if you really need to you can add something to organic soils for a fast acting solution. There are a lot of good options that aren't like straight salt compounds also.

meangreengrowinmachine said:

one or two doses is not going to totally kill off your microbes but continual use will.

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Where did you learn this?

So...if someone has an N excess, could adding a large population of bacteria be a way out of it quickly? I'm just trying to understand what I can do with the knowledge regarding N.