Security: how much wattage is safe?

got any other advice, meter man? very cool guest.

Yeah, that was very informative. I keep forgetting that they walk around reading meters and our houses aren't directly plugged into the electric companies monitoring computers, so it makes sense that the only thing they have to compare the current usage to is last years bill for the same month.

as far as the ghetto birds with FLIR. I don't think that thermal can reach through your shingles, plywood, drywall, insulation and then into your room/box/closet or whatever. I've seen enough high speed chases on Cops where they used FLIR and you couldn't see through through the roofs of the houses on TV. Could be wrong though...

I dont know if this has been covered yet.
I noted the first month in up-page (ahh increase)
then tried to compensate a reduction throughout the home.

Cfls, insulating doors/windows.
programmable t-stat.
clothes line. And hand washing dishes.
I mean having the maid wash dishes.

my electric bill actually went down lower than previous months.

Captn said:

I just thought I would chime in here. I'm an electrician, and an authorized contractor for three local utilities. I work in electric meters everyday, I know them like I know the creases in my balls, and I can assure you, unequivocally, there is nothing in a standard electric meter that is capable of monitoring when you use power. At least not in my area of the country. They only monitor how much power you use, and the utility reads the meter once a month, does some simple math, and figures your bill. Now most utilities have programs whereby they will charge you more at peak demand times and less at off peak times, but you have to sign up for these programs. The utility will send someone out to install a special meter. I've worked in well over 1500 meters and have only seen ONE installed in a residence. They are more often found with large commercial/industrial users, since the average residential user won't save much money. So there you go, take it or leave it.

Click to expand...

God Bless You. And anyone else that can help me to sleep easier at night

Captn said:

I just thought I would chime in here. I'm an electrician, and an authorized contractor for three local utilities. I work in electric meters everyday, I know them like I know the creases in my balls, and I can assure you, unequivocally, there is nothing in a standard electric meter that is capable of monitoring when you use power. At least not in my area of the country. They only monitor how much power you use, and the utility reads the meter once a month, does some simple math, and figures your bill. Now most utilities have programs whereby they will charge you more at peak demand times and less at off peak times, but you have to sign up for these programs. The utility will send someone out to install a special meter. I've worked in well over 1500 meters and have only seen ONE installed in a residence. They are more often found with large commercial/industrial users, since the average residential user won't save much money. So there you go, take it or leave it.

Click to expand...

DaGambler said:

God Bless You. And anyone else that can help me to sleep easier at night

Click to expand...

Very good info Cap......i second what DaGambler says

What I do to avoid any type of suspicious electrical activity is run a heater in my garage when my lights go out. The wattage is equivilant so there are no spikes. I do however get hit a bit with the electric bill, but not bad, and it is peacful to know that I don't look suspicious.

Captn, I thank you for your input! Invalueable! +rep

I install emergency generator systems for a living. ( Many systems use whats called a "Service Rated Transfer Switch", which requires that new service entrance cables be run from the meter. That is why I obtained utility company authorization to work inside meters.) In sizing these systems, I of course consider customer load. As a consequence, I can tell you that there is wide variation in power usage even among homes in the same neighborhood, especially older neighborhoods. There can also be large, legitimate load increases in a given home. For example, you start using a 1000w light? For all the utility knows you just put in a hot tub. Your load doubles in a week? You just powered up a new addition. There is, however an upper limit to what a residential home is going to use. I can't tell you what that limit is, but as you approach it, you should worry. Recently, in my area, the po po raided four rental homes being used as grow operations. They were tipped off by the utility. In the article, a cop said that in one home, every room on all three floors was being used to grow weed. Now I don't know a lot about growing weed, but that sounds like a lot of lights to me. 2,000 or 3,000 (additional) watts can easily be legitimate in a home (although looking for ways to reduce your load is always a good idea, whether you're growing weed or not). 40,000w is a grow operation, nothing else. I would never grow pot commercially, but if I did, I would do it in a commercial or light industial space (assuming indoor operation) where high loads can be expected. I've also considered using a generator. It might be feasible for me, since I could get the gen and materials wholesale, and install and service myself, but like I said, I have no need. For someone else, It might not work out. Anyway, my fingers are tired, but I'll keep an eye on this thread if you guys have anymore questions. One final note, I specialize in back up power, I never did much general electrical work, so if you ask a bunch of ??? outside my specialty, I probably won't be able to help.

Captn said:

I install emergency generator systems for a living. ( Many systems use whats called a "Service Rated Transfer Switch", which requires that new service entrance cables be run from the meter. That is why I obtained utility company authorization to work inside meters.) In sizing these systems, I of course consider customer load. As a consequence, I can tell you that there is wide variation in power usage even among homes in the same neighborhood, especially older neighborhoods. There can also be large, legitimate load increases in a given home. For example, you start using a 1000w light? For all the utility knows you just put in a hot tub. Your load doubles in a week? You just powered up a new addition. There is, however an upper limit to what a residential home is going to use. I can't tell you what that limit is, but as you approach it, you should worry. Recently, in my area, the po po raided four rental homes being used as grow operations. They were tipped off by the utility. In the article, a cop said that in one home, every room on all three floors was being used to grow weed. Now I don't know a lot about growing weed, but that sounds like a lot of lights to me. 2,000 or 3,000 (additional) watts can easily be legitimate in a home (although looking for ways to reduce your load is always a good idea, whether you're growing weed or not). 40,000w is a grow operation, nothing else. I would never grow pot commercially, but if I did, I would do it in a commercial or light industial space (assuming indoor operation) where high loads can be expected. I've also considered using a generator. It might be feasible for me, since I could get the gen and materials wholesale, and install and service myself, but like I said, I have no need. For someone else, It might not work out. Anyway, my fingers are tired, but I'll keep an eye on this thread if you guys have anymore questions. One final note, I specialize in back up power, I never did much general electrical work, so if you ask a bunch of ??? outside my specialty, I probably won't be able to help.

Click to expand...

So how should one feel about clocking 4500-5000 kw hours per month in an 80 yr old medium sized home.....not huge but bigger than avg.

Also I have started researching propane and nat gas systems to put all my lights on (about 40 amps on 240v boxes) feeling like i would be completely stealth if I could take my excess usage off-grid.

Fuel would obviously be more expensive than electrical service but it beats the alternative. I would be interested to here your thoughts on the feasibilty of running a generator of this type daily for 12 plus hours. What size i may need to power a 40-60 amp service, fuel consumtion on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.

Thanks for your input Captn.

-OitW

You are really asking several questions, so ill parse my answer. And keep in mind that some of this is just my opinion.

"So how should one feel about clocking 4500-5000 kw hours per month in an 80 yr old medium sized home" The reason I said that there is more load variability in older neighborhoods is because newer neighborhoods tend to be very homogeneous. All the homes are built by the same builder, are of similar size and are occupied by people of similar socio-economic class, who order similar options and have similar tastes. (That's really the whole point behind the subdivision; your neighbors are very similar to you. I don't know why that appeals to so many people, but it does.) Electricity usage will also be similar. An older subdivision started out that way, but now it has evolved. One house has an elderly couple, another has a young family, than maybe a family with 3 teenagers. Maybe one house the roof was raised and a second story put on, doubling the size of the house. Finally, across the street a home was demolished except for one wall (so it could be classified as an addition), and a McMansion built in its place. In this older neighborhood there will be very large variances in load from one house to the next. Now, 5000w@120v is 40a, but thats off one leg. (single phase has 2 legs at 120v each). If you split that up and put half your lights on each leg, you'll draw 20a per leg. Thats a small central a/c. And my heat pump runs pretty much constantly in the summer, and during cold snaps. So, you tell me. Do you think the utility is going to notice if you add a small a/c to your home? Its getting pretty late, and I have to get off this computer or I'll be up all night. I'll answer your generator questions tomorrow. BTW, a 1000w light on for one hour is one kwh.

Ok, I haven't really been to concerned about usage but was interested in your thoughts on my monthly consumption. 5kw hours per month is my total household usage (obviously) but this represents a jump in usage compared to the bill prior to firing up my op.

I am of course well aware of the benefits of the historic neighborhood where your examples of evolution in homes couldn't be more accurate. My only reason for mentioning consumption was because i felt you may have a general range for higher end residential usage due to the need for sizing generators for installation.

Also, I added a 1kw light every 2-3 weeks over a 10 week period rather than waking up one day and turning on 5kw. The lights were turned on one at a time because i am doing a perpetual harvest therefor only 1/4 of my crop went to flower every cycle period (15-16 days). So it looked like I switched to electric heat and increased the usage as we entered colder months.

And I am aware of the kwh calculations based on wattage of the appliances and duration of run time. My 40 amps of service dedicated to my lamps is all on 240v wire and plugs (2hot, 1 ground) so each lamp draws a little less than 4.2 amps when running (a bit more at start-up).

The two circuits dedicated to the lights is all I want to take off the grid.......and I want to add 4 more 1kw lamps in flower (that means a total of 3-20amp circuits for the generator to power)

Thanks for your valuable insight....I look forward to hearing your thoughts on generator usage.

-OitW

I'm going to talk about Briggs & Stratton stationary generators here, because they represent a good compromise between quality and affordability, and I'm rather familiar with them. A 15kw natural gas generator will deliver about 58a @240v, and consume roughly 230,000btu or 230 cubic feet per hour at full load. (NG is sold by the cubic foot, gen consumption is rated in btus. As you can see, a cubic foot contains just about 1000btus.) Or you could run some of your lights from utility and some from gen power. A 12kw NG gen will deliver 45a @240v, and consume about 170,000btu/hr. Find out what you pay per cubic foot of NG, and you can figure your cost. The name plate rating of the gen ( i.e., 12kw, 15kw, etc.) assumes LPG fuel, even though the majority of gens use NG. Thats why the calculation (watts/volts=amps) is off. A 12 kw on NG is actually closer to 11kw.
I should mention, when I size systems, I'm not concerned with consumption over time. I'm concerned with finding the max load the gen needs to support. So I've never really paid any attention to kwh, just to max amp draw. Your guess there is as good as mine. Likewise, I pay no attention to how much fuel a gen will use over time, but how much I must deliver to the gen each moment at full load. If your going to run on NG its easy to figure. But with LPG things get a little more tricky. LPG contains 2500btus/cubic foot, but LPG is sold by the pound, and tanks are sized by the gallon. I'm sure you can find the conversion charts on the web so I won't bother. I have a set, but like I said, I never need them, so I don't know where they are, lol. There is something else you have to consider. Suppose you do your calculations and find that your tank will have to be filled every 3 weeks. That might arouse the suspicion of the propane company, and you're back in the same boat. Where I live, I could buy from 5 different companies and they would each fill my tank every 3 monthts or so, but if there is only one company servicing your area, well, you see the problem. Also, with propane you have someone regularly coming onto your property where you are growing weed!
Another consideration with gen power is the lifespan of the gen. I'm not sure, but I want to say that I've seen the figure of 5000/hr associated with the Briggs. As a backup system thats fine, 10-15 years or more, but 12hrs/day its 416 days (and the gen would break down and need repair more than once during that time). You could go with a higher quality make (Catepillar, Detroit Diesel, Katolight), but your going to pay.
Back to your consumption, with 9kw lights you're talking over 100kwh a day, in addition to your normal load. That seems like a lot to me. I've thought about this a little, as you can see, (its honostly academic for me, I have no plans), and I've also considered a small commercial space, like a defunct service station. I see a lot of vacant ones when I drive thru the country, and you could probably lease one fairly cheap. Come up with a good cover story that your a mechanic trying to start your own place. I've installed a 130kw in a gas station, a 250kw in a bakery, just to give you an idea of the loads you could use without arousing suspicion. Find a place thats fenced, and get a rottie to keep away the nosey neighbors.

I forgot, if you decide to go with gen power, don't get a Generac...unless you enjoy frustration.

OitW, just saw your jounal...sweet pics...can I live in your grow room?

passking said:

try to save electric around your house, like in my pc i have a 1000 watt cpu because i have 2 top end graphic cards, i bought a 400 watt psu and remove the linked graphic cards when iam not on games. right there i save 600watt, and iam on the computer quite a bit.
daytime lights on,
night time lights off, but computer is in full swing gaming mode, even it out abit.
put energy bulbs threw out your house.
loads a stuff you can do to try and even your bill out when growing,
unplug stuff when not in use etc etc.

Click to expand...

you swap the power supply, take out vid cards, and re config ur system everytime you play a game ? when your not even using that much power with it all in and not playing games.......

420weedman said:

you swap the power supply, take out vid cards, and re config ur system everytime you play a game ? when your not even using that much power with it all in and not playing games.......

Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing... seems like it would cause problems.

Great info Captn

Captn said:

I forgot, if you decide to go with gen power, don't get a Generac...unless you enjoy frustration.

Click to expand...

OMG so fucking true

Captn said:

OitW, just saw your jounal...sweet pics...can I live in your grow room?

Click to expand...

lol, lot of work for the poor bastard living in there.
I will get into a more thorough thanks in a moment.....but i wanted to say that if you like the old pics then wait till you see the new set-up with the fourth light in flower, also my current crops are getting better and bigger than my first couple in the pics you saw. So.....its 5kw total but then I have a 1500w A/C a 900w dehumidifier, 500w of floros, loads of pumps, fans, rail motors, 4 Vortex fans....lotta wattage but you know.

Thanks for all that generator info....the one rep I spoke to said a 15kw as well so I glad to here he wasn't jacking me..... I will speak to the fuel providers, do some figuring and get back to you with what I find. Also my thoughts if I went LPG was to get massive tanks installed in-ground and as you said buy from many suppliers but i have NG service for the house, water, stove, heat, oven, etc....the gas company may wonder what the f@*k but who knows if their radar is up for such usage spikes.....there is also the need to build a masonry outbuilding that is soundproof, vented with an underground exhaust, etc, etc......so the generator idea may never be acted upon.

I am happy with the new set up so I have to remind myself this is not like my normal businesses of the past where I was inclined to be the biggest and best in my industry. In this case that would be considered greedy and pose some serious risks for me, as they say "pigs always get slaughtered" so I have no plan to lease commercial space. I figure another house that one owned (no rentals) would expose that person to the least problems in order to have a second op, but again, I would rather not leave the house or take on more risk if I don't have to.

Thanks again for all the great info....

-OitW

ive been looking into off-grid power generation latly just for grins..........if you can put your grow on some off the grid source, you can totally side step this problem with the power people...........of course the only real option ive found that even becomes worth while is minature hydro electric power................of course its more work and more money, and you gotta live in the right place, but you can crank out like 4-5 ish kilos and its totally off the grid..........a friend of mine moved to cali near the mountains and his whole house runs on hydro power, wind, and solar...............

The utility company called my girlfriend and asked her a series of questions like... Do we sleep with the lights on... Do we have a fish tank.. what type of heater do we use... etc... my girl just yea.. which is true except for the lights in the house... i have a fish tank running 200watts of lighting because i have plants... but i might cut it down to 100 not sure yet..