Seedlings "frozen in time"

tok3in

Member
Hello fellow growers. I have lurked here for some time but have recently hit a roadblock and am in dire need of help. I do have a handful of successful runs, but that was when I was first getting started. It seems like the more experience I got, the worse grower I became. That's what it feels like anyways. It is immensely therapeutic for me to be able to care for these plants and see them thrive. It's killing me to see them slowly die to something I don't know how to fix. My hope is that someone here can point me in the right direction.

My issue is that my seedlings seemingly get "frozen in time". That's the best way I can describe it. After breaking ground, they seem to be okay for 3-4 days and then just slowly stop growing. They seem to really struggle just to develop their first set of true leaves, no vigor whatsoever. They'll be like that for another week or so, slowing growing, and then will eventually stop growing and start drooping like they need watering, and eventually yellow out and die.

The closest thing I've found to my issue is "damping off". If I understand it correctly, it's when fungus attacks a young seeding. The only issue is that my plants don't look like the pictures I see of damping, there's no breaking off of the stem at the base. I've read that it usually happens quickly.

After reading about it, and really inspecting my grow, I discovered some type of growth on the lines feeding oxygen into my reservoir. It was slimy, so I replaced the lines and cleaned everything with warm water and bleach. On this last run, I even inoculated the soil with Bukashi Earthworks Microbes +. I gave it a few days hoping it would give the beneficials an opportunity to colonize the soil before planting the seeds. Not sure if that's a thing or not but it seemed like a good idea. As you can tell, I'm desperate.

Seeds are autos from Mephisto, so I am reasonably confident the genetics are good. I'm growing in Fox Farm Light Warrior soil in typical, plastic starter seedling pots. Light Warrior has always seemed to drain well. I let the seeds soak 24 hours and then they go into the soil. The only nutes I gave this last time was a very low dose of Fox Farm Big Bloom, but on the prior run I didn't use any at all and got the same results. I water about every 4 days with pH balanced water between 6-7. I do completely drench the soil but it seems to drain out nicely. I'm using HLG Blackbird 600W (turned down to 25%). Temperature ranges from 68 - 76 F, average 73. Humidity ranges between 49-64%, average 59%. VPD measures between 0.8 - 1.4 kPa, averages 1.16.

I feel like I have a solid foundation for success and have tried to sterilize as much as I could... but it's just not enough. The issue may not even be damping but I don't have any better ideas. I have considered the possibility I'm watering too much, but every 4 days is how I've always watered seedlings, even in my early days when I didn't have this issue. The pots are very light after 4 days, I can't imagine that I'm drowning them.

Bear in mind that I had this issue around 3 years ago before I took a break from growing (because of the frustration from this very issue), so whatever was going on then has persisted in my grow this whole time. Other than my pH Up/Down, I bought everything new for this run. New nutes, lights, soil... but I am using the same seedling pots now that I think about it. However, I've washed them with warm bleach water, I would have thought that would been enough. I don't know if I still have contamination, or if I'm making some rookie mistake. Or both.

I'm at my wits end and hope that someone can guide me through this because it's been too long since I've seen my girls happy. I can't keep doing the same thing over and over expecting something different to happen. It's getting exhausting emotionally and financially. I need to methodically troubleshoot this because I'm just guessing at this point. This last run they made it 8 days from when they broke the surface to when they were dying.

Has anyone else experienced this issue or something similar? Let me know if I have been unclear or omitted any info. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 

jimihendrix1

Well-Known Member
2 things I would do is?
Id get the temps up too 80+, and stop drenching a seedling to run off, in soil.
I myself after planting them in the soil. I keep them moist, by using a spray bottle. First 2-4 days, and then slowly increase water over time, as the plant grows. At first I probably dont give more than an oz of water. But keep watch, and make sure it stays Moist, but not soaked. As the seedling grows, I give it more water. But, do not soak the medium. Unless one is using Coco..
I generally give enough water, for however wide, the leaves spread from tip, to tip, and then, just a HAIR MORE, to give new roots a moist area to grow towards. But, not soaked.

I would also keep a slight breeze on them 24/7. Plant should be constantly, slightly moving. Also think about fresh air exchange, and not just blowing air around.

From from what I see. It sems the temps are too low, and they are overawtered. Also, never let tthem get completely dry. Always just slightly Moist.
As far as light. I blast mine from day one with one of a couple different lights.

Either a 1000w Hortilux HPS at 20-24 inches
1000w Hortilux Blue at 20 inches
1150 Gavita DE HPS 40 inches. One cant get the DE Gavita closer than 36in, or the IR, will fry them. Even adult plants.
I think the main reason people get light stress, is because of not enough fresh air exchange, and too intense light. Ive been using a 1000w HID, for seedlings, in a 4 x 4 area, since the came out with HID, in 1977-78, and have NEVER had light stress, but have also always made sure I have extremely good air exchange.
My theory is they get blasted, at the Equator, and throw in High Altitude, with an extreme amount of light from day one, including UVA/B. Why cut them short, inside? I also use 2 Solacure 4ft UVA/B bulbs, in a 4 x 4 area at 20-24 inches, and 4 hours per day. Including seedlings.
Im also not in a tent, but in a couple 20ft x 20ft rooms, with 10ft ceilings. Though, it is in a house.
 

Rootbound420

Well-Known Member
Could be dampening off especially if your saturating the whole pot that early. Try this if you'd like it's what I do and works a charm. Pop seed in shot glass for 24 hours. In the mean time saturate the whole pot right to runoff and place it in the tent for 24 hours while the seed is soaking. Plant directly in soil and spray with a squirt bottle 3 times then let be. Spray once a day 3 squirts until it breaks soil. Once it breaks soil only water 40ml a day right around the perimeter of the leaves for the first 7 days. 80ml around perimeter of leaves for week 2 and saturate ONLY the outer rim of the pot if needed. Toward the end of week 2/start of week 3 your plant will be about as wide as the pot (if your using 3 or 5 gal pots) go ahead and saturate the whole pot from here on out and only when your pot is light in weight. Also I would suggest fabric pots or if you want to spend a little go with rain science bags. I use them they are amazing and extremely durable. Hope this helps good luck!
 

Red Hard Head

Well-Known Member
Fungus gnats? Notice any small gnats near the light warrior bag.
Bagged soils can become contaminated with fungus gnats. And those stores can remain contaminated. If it is gnats. Micob-lif mosquito control BT will clear it up quick.
 

caexx

Member
No offense my dude but watering so much you get run off? 8 day seedlings? That's too much. If you're planting directly into last pot and not transplanting then 1/2 inch into soil. Get a plastic water bottle and drench the soil and the place you planted the seed. Cut water bottle and half and put bottom of cut water bottle on top of where you planted for humidity. Once it pops use half a plastic water bottle of water for plant and wet soil 2-3 inches AWAY from plant to promote root growth and foliage water your plants for the 1st 2 weeks. Every other day should be enough.
 

tok3in

Member
No offense taken. I obviously don't know what I'm doing. Sounds like the only thing that has persisted in my grow all these years were my mistakes... I guess in my mind, given that the Light Warrior seemed to drain so well and they're in really small starter cups, and the fact that the pots get super light after just 3-4 days, I thought for sure the water was evaporating fast enough before they could drown. The last time I watered was last Wednesday. They're currently yellow, droopy and sad. I've probably let them get too dry now. Very frustrating because I feel like the seedling phase should be a cake walk. I don't know how I ever made it to harvest before. I guess it was beginner's luck. I'm just not good at growing things, I can't even grow tomatoes properly.
 

Syntax747

Well-Known Member
Eh .. over watering is a common issue among newer growers. Don't be beat yourself up too much.
Shit happens to us all, just take what these kind folks have said and apply it.

Btw Welcome to RIU.
 

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
I'm with Jimi
Your temps are too low, led much doesn't produce radiant heat.

Personally I'd rather start them under a t5 or cfl than a 600w led. But if you can get your temps above 80f under that light you'll see growth. Its a lot of light for plants that aren't in the right environment.
 
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KeyFinger

Member
I'd say the temperature should be around 75 constantly, although I don't think that's the reason for them to be stunned. In nature, temperature at night is lover than that so it kind of should work. But yeah, giving them a big warmer environment might force them to properly flower
 

caexx

Member
I'm with Jimi
Your temps are too low, led much doesn't produce radiant heat.

Personally I'd rather start them under a t5 or cfl than a 600w led. But if you can get your temps above 80f under that light you'll see growth. Its a lot of light for plants that aren't in the right environment.
I have 4 200w LEDs in a 5x5 and temps consistently get over 85. They definitely produce heat.
 

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
I have 4 200w LEDs in a 5x5 and temps consistently get over 85. They definitely produce heat.
Everything electrical creates heat.
LEDs have almost no IR in comparison to HPS or the sun.
That heats the objects , raises leaf surface temperature.

Heat from led is transfered mostly by conduction and convection , rather than radiation.
 
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caexx

Member
Everything electrical creates heat.
LEDs have almost no IR in comparison to HPS or the sun.
That heats the objects , raises leaf surface temperature.

Heat from led is transfered mostly by conduction and convection , rather than radiation.
I agree with you. But his temps while on the lower end aren't in my opinion creating the issue.
 

tok3in

Member
Eh .. over watering is a common issue among newer growers. Don't be beat yourself up too much.
Shit happens to us all, just take what these kind folks have said and apply it.

Btw Welcome to RIU.
Thanks for the encouragement and warm welcome. I've been in a bit of a mental funk lately and am trying to shake it off. Luckily, I got quite a few freebie seeds with my last purchase so I'm practicing with those. Sucks to lose them, but its part of the process, breaking eggs and all that. I'm thankful for the advice that I've gotten so far. I've got seeds soaking atm and will plant them tomorrow. I know I'm going to be fighting the urge to water them more. Wish me luck.

From from what I see. It sems the temps are too low, and they are overawtered. Also, never let tthem get completely dry. Always just slightly Moist.
Thanks for the advice Jimi. Seems like I'm my plants worst enemy lol. I don't know how I ever made it to harvest before watering them like I have been. I should be able to easily get the temps to around possibly 80+ and am completely revising how I'm watering.

No offense my dude but watering so much you get run off? 8 day seedlings? That's too much. If you're planting directly into last pot and not transplanting then 1/2 inch into soil. Get a plastic water bottle and drench the soil and the place you planted the seed. Cut water bottle and half and put bottom of cut water bottle on top of where you planted for humidity. Once it pops use half a plastic water bottle of water for plant and wet soil 2-3 inches AWAY from plant to promote root growth and foliage water your plants for the 1st 2 weeks. Every other day should be enough.
Yeah, the over watering thing is a common theme I'm seeing here. I really like your suggestion regarding cutting the water bottles in half, essentially creating a mini humidity dome. It's nuggets like that I really enjoy picking up on. Thanks.

I'm with Jimi
Your temps are too low, led much doesn't produce radiant heat.

Personally I'd rather start them under a t5 or cfl than a 600w led. But if you can get your temps above 80f under that light you'll see growth. Its a lot of light for plants that aren't in the right environment.
10-4 corey, what humidity should I be shooting for with temps that high? Not sure if this matter or helps, but I'm also measuring VPD if there's a range I should be shooting for there as well.
 

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the encouragement and warm welcome. I've been in a bit of a mental funk lately and am trying to shake it off. Luckily, I got quite a few freebie seeds with my last purchase so I'm practicing with those. Sucks to lose them, but its part of the process, breaking eggs and all that. I'm thankful for the advice that I've gotten so far. I've got seeds soaking atm and will plant them tomorrow. I know I'm going to be fighting the urge to water them more. Wish me luck.



Thanks for the advice Jimi. Seems like I'm my plants worst enemy lol. I don't know how I ever made it to harvest before watering them like I have been. I should be able to easily get the temps to around possibly 80+ and am completely revising how I'm watering.



Yeah, the over watering thing is a common theme I'm seeing here. I really like your suggestion regarding cutting the water bottles in half, essentially creating a mini humidity dome. It's nuggets like that I really enjoy picking up on. Thanks.



10-4 corey, what humidity should I be shooting for with temps that high? Not sure if this matter or helps, but I'm also measuring VPD if there's a range I should be shooting for there as well.
Around 62% - 72%
 

BongerChonger

Well-Known Member
I think raising the temps will help, as others have said. Average temp bit low.
Even if the problem isn't due to temperature, raising them will better help the plant's own defences.
I have considered the possibility I'm watering too much, but every 4 days is how I've always watered seedlings, even in my early days when I didn't have this issue. The pots are very light after 4 days, I can't imagine that I'm drowning them.
Overwatering is an aeration issue, not necessarily your own watering habits at fault here.
Watering to runoff in a seedling pot, or pot in general, isn't a bad thing.
It's container gardening 101.

4 days between watering is a bit of a stretch, but nothing out of the ordinary.
More important is your pot size and how much water your potting mix is holding onto, once your pot has drained.
That's where aeration comes in.

Add more aeration like perlite to your potting mix, if you don't already, and you think it might be overwatering. I aim for about 50% myself.
Watering every couple days to a few.
I always find the potting mixes I buy, to hold too much water, too rich in organic matter, full of wood chips, bark etc.
Cannabis hates having wet feet. Hates it. Loves fast draining, well aerated media.

My issue is that my seedlings seemingly get "frozen in time". That's the best way I can describe it. After breaking ground, they seem to be okay for 3-4 days and then just slowly stop growing. They seem to really struggle just to develop their first set of true leaves, no vigor whatsoever. They'll be like that for another week or so, slowing growing, and then will eventually stop growing and start drooping like they need watering, and eventually yellow out and die.

The closest thing I've found to my issue is "damping off". If I understand it correctly, it's when fungus attacks a young seeding. The only issue is that my plants don't look like the pictures I see of damping, there's no breaking off of the stem at the base. I've read that it usually happens quickly
You've obviously tried different seeds, hasn't been same seeds each time?

I've had a similar experience to yours, using seeds I'd not stored properly, I think.
They'd sprout, but would never pass the cotyledon stage, they'd just kind of sit there, healthy looking but just not growing.
Though they wouldn't yellow and die, they just wouldn't grow.

If it's not the same seeds, then it's gotta be something you're doing.
Raising those temps a bit is a great place to start.
 

SpectacularG

Well-Known Member
You seem a very intelligent person so I'll try and give you a different kind of advice.
On top of obviously not overwatering in soil and maybe try using rootplugs for the first 1-2 weeks. (I am on my first grow and got a 92% germination rate on 55 seeds). The advice I wanna give brother is that sometimes the lessons we still have to learn in life or if you are in a particular state of mind that. Without getting too deep what I am trying to tell you is that often times when we get stuck on something or problems arise, and in your case is the same issue everytime so there's definitely a pattern, we need to solve the base issues and grow spiritually, emotionally or whatever it is in that moment that you need to address. Addressing that problem will solve any other ramificating issue. Often times they are very clear if you have developed some perspicacity, I will now just take a possible but random guess because ofc I don't know you, but think about whats going on. You are having a problem during the 6-10 day period and a plant lives about 90 days kinda like humans. That could mean many things. First 2 that comes to mind is you need to understand that to achieve the results you desire you have to do the necessary research and be on a preventative mindset. Or it could be that you had some emotional trauma when you were that age 6-10 years old and there's still a part of you that needs to be addressed on that and this is your personal sign from the universe that you are now mature enough to resolve that trauma and should focus on that. Brother the moment you find out whats Actually going on and grow a full healthy a juicy plant, it may be the day of your liberation of some past traumas
(Or all of this philosophical stuff was for nothing and you just a dummas that overwaters seedlings hahaha)
Anyway brother wish you the best I ll keep in touch in here.
 

lildogbyte

Member
If there’s one thing I learned from my research, it’s that weed is a fairly hardy plant. It grows in all sorts of environments, from the himalayas to afghanistan.

Reading your post I can only infer what might be the problem. I’m in the midst of my first ever grow, and I essentially just put seeds in dirt and voila i’ve got about a dozen vigorous little guys. Based on what people are telling you, I’ve been severely over watering my little guys. I don’t know where you’re located though. I’m in the central valley it’s been reaching over 100 F, so maybe that’s why my babies aren’t affected by it? From what i’ve read also, my plants shouldn’t technically even survive the environment they’re in yet they’re looking really good. I’m about 3 weeks in.

Anyways, you mentioned something about slimy lines? Sounds like whatever is causing that- That’s your problem. (In my opinion.) The temperature should be perfectly fine despite what others are telling you. Ed Rosenthal says marijuana is cold resistant, and doesn’t like the heat; will stagnate when temps get too high, but is usually fine in low temps. I can attest to this- as I said it’s been getting crazy hot ‘round here. Even tho Ed says they’ll get cranky they seem to barely notice. The temps others suggest won’t do anything bad, but I also don’t think they’ll do anything except continue to frustrate you once you raise the temp and it doesn’t help.

If anything, to get specific, it seems like you probably are keeping them in too moist of an environment, but without pictures of your setup and with the info provided it’s hard to tell. You did give plenty of details but hey a picture says a thousand words you know?

Good luck. My mom dealt with the same thing actually. She got so frustrated she just abandoned it so luckily i had a bunch of free stuff to start with lol…
 
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