Self sustainable gardeners

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
I've read the book. I've read all the teaming with...books. I also have attended symposia from other soil biologist, who disagree. Science is constantly changing. To think one source is a complete and total truth...is a little wrong to me. I like to keep an open mind, and transfer ideas between other people. That being said your post was a little on the nose...could you elaborate more on why you think a higher fungal diversity is important? And why PhDs are saying less fungi per bacteria for earlier sucesional crops? It's easy to debate against non phds with knowledge from other phds...no one here(I assume) is leading soil biology research. Without a complete research under a microscope, and having it reviewed by peers of similar knowledge...is all he said she said. "Growth was better look at this side by side" isn't scientific in the slightest. Let's all just exchange ideas in a positive way.
side by sides are actually very scientific as long as you have a control, and a test, and you run enough tests to show conclusive and repeatable results (also doing chi square analysis would further prove your findings). the thing is, you have to limit your experiment to as few variables as possible. of course chi square values account for variables with degrees of freedom, but yeah... it's actually the way scientists do comparisons :)
 
side by sides are actually very scientific as long as you have a control, and a test, and you run enough tests to show conclusive and repeatable results (also doing chi square analysis would further prove your findings). the thing is, you have to limit your experiment to as few variables as possible. of course chi square values account for variables with degrees of freedom, but yeah... it's actually the way scientists do comparisons :)
Re read what I said. "Growth was better look at the side by side" is not scientific. Controlled conditions with a side by side is scientific. Taking two pictures one with this, that one with this...you need more than that. You need ph of soil, a microscope. Controlled conditions are scientific if side by side. Yes.

Kind of feel like this is why people don't post a lot on forums. Different ideas are not accepted. It's let's pick out everything we saw wrong about something and briefly and hastily point it out even though I didn't use common sense and knowledge to come to a solution. Anyone in their right mind would come to the conclusion I was being sarcastic. To many times I've scrolled through forums and people say "see my synthetics are better than organic look at my yield" that means nothing. What were temps like? Humidity? Veg time? Strain? Water ph? Soil ph?(awaiting someone to say something about that too) many more variables. Is it possible to have a different opinion and not be wrong? Yes. On weed forums with people who just regurgitate what they read, not ever thinking for themselves? No.
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Re read what I said. "Growth was better look at the side by side" is not scientific. Controlled conditions with a side by side is scientific. Taking two pictures one with this, that one with this...you need more than that. You need ph of soil, a microscope. Controlled conditions are scientific if side by side. Yes.

Kind of feel like this is why people don't post a lot on forums. Different ideas are not accepted. It's let's pick out everything we saw wrong about something and briefly and hastily point it out even though I didn't use common sense and knowledge to come to a solution. Anyone in their right mind would come to the conclusion I was being sarcastic. To many times I've scrolled through forums and people say "see my synthetics are better than organic look at my yield" that means nothing. What were temps like? Humidity? Veg time? Strain? Water ph? Soil ph?(awaiting someone to say something about that too) many more variables. Is it possible to have a different opinion and not be wrong? Yes. On weed forums with people who just regurgitate what they read, not ever thinking for themselves? No.
oh yeah i totally agree man. and yes you are right, there is a lot of regurgitation on the forums from people who indeed have no flipping clue what they are talking about!
 
oh yeah i totally agree man. and yes you are right, there is a lot of regurgitation on the forums from people who indeed have no flipping clue what they are talking about!
Since you are a bit of a vet to the site, what's the most common compost technique the gals and guys use around here? I prefer thermal but everyone's got a system that works for them, curious as to what's the most popular
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Since you are a bit of a vet to the site, what's the most common compost technique the gals and guys use around here? I prefer thermal but everyone's got a system that works for them, curious as to what's the most popular
It seems like there are varying methods on here, and I am not fluent in any of them but vermicompost lol. as far as outdoor compost, I am currently in the "compost slow and let it do its own thing" club, as far as like a pile goes. Or, I just put as much through the worm bin as possible.

for a thermal pile, I suggest 5 parts high carbon (leaves, straw, already breaking down wood chips, etc), 4 parts greens (lawn clippings, alfalfa, ect) and either 1 part high N (possible like a high N fertilizer) OR 2 parts coffee grounds. As you know, it requires a lot of turning, when temps hit 155-160 its time to turn, and needs turned often at that point because O2 is being spent like crazy by the organisms.

the compost and microbe guru around these parts is @calliandra and she has been taking some online classes with Elaine Ingham (come on now cali don't be modest ;) )

my method is, start one thermophilic pile at the beginning of the year, let it break down as much as possible, and then I kind of divide it into two piles, i bury scraps in one of them for a bit and let the organisms take care of it while i use from the other, then i'll switch piles and start burying in the other while the previous side finishes up and I can start using it. I never deplete either pile all the way. just kinda take as its available. its just easier for my lifestyle because i'm away at college for the better half of the week. i don't have the time to watch a thermophilic pile properly. I also keep all my leaves and wet them and keep a tarp loosely over them, and take finished EWC/compost/insect frass from the stuff closest to the ground as it is ready.

thermal gets you compost the fastest, as i'm sure you know, and Elaine Ingham (which is where the thermo recipe i just wrote out came from) says she can finish compost in 28 days with those ratios! She is much better at it than I though. check out her site www.soilfoodweb.com for some good tips and tricks. lots of good free info on there
 
It seems like there are varying methods on here, and I am not fluent in any of them but vermicompost lol. as far as outdoor compost, I am currently in the "compost slow and let it do its own thing" club, as far as like a pile goes. Or, I just put as much through the worm bin as possible.

for a thermal pile, I suggest 5 parts high carbon (leaves, straw, already breaking down wood chips, etc), 4 parts greens (lawn clippings, alfalfa, ect) and either 1 part high N (possible like a high N fertilizer) OR 2 parts coffee grounds. As you know, it requires a lot of turning, when temps hit 155-160 its time to turn, and needs turned often at that point because O2 is being spent like crazy by the organisms.

the compost and microbe guru around these parts is @calliandra and she has been taking some online classes with Elaine Ingham (come on now cali don't be modest ;) )

my method is, start one thermophilic pile at the beginning of the year, let it break down as much as possible, and then I kind of divide it into two piles, i bury scraps in one of them for a bit and let the organisms take care of it while i use from the other, then i'll switch piles and start burying in the other while the previous side finishes up and I can start using it. I never deplete either pile all the way. just kinda take as its available. its just easier for my lifestyle because i'm away at college for the better half of the week. i don't have the time to watch a thermophilic pile properly. I also keep all my leaves and wet them and keep a tarp loosely over them, and take finished EWC/compost/insect frass from the stuff closest to the ground as it is ready.

thermal gets you compost the fastest, as i'm sure you know, and Elaine Ingham (which is where the thermo recipe i just wrote out came from) says she can finish compost in 28 days with those ratios! She is much better at it than I though. check out her site www.soilfoodweb.com for some good tips and tricks. lots of good free info on there
Haha I have taken her microscope class! She's my old lady crush for sure!

I'm also a college student so not having to be fully committed is essential haha coffee grounds are something(around here anyways) that are abundant! So many local coffee shops in CO, they are all willing to give them away for free. Super cool, but ran myself into a hole because I have way to many now lol

I've spent hours listening to Elaine, glad to see other people dig her info as well. She was one of the reasons I stop going after fungi so much. She had a pretty simple explanation behind why. People backed her up on it as well. I mean she's increasing yields by 300%...tell me everyone here wouldn't love to see that in our rooms/outdoors
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Haha I have taken her microscope class! She's my old lady crush for sure!

I'm also a college student so not having to be fully committed is essential haha coffee grounds are something(around here anyways) that are abundant! So many local coffee shops in CO, they are all willing to give them away for free. Super cool, but ran myself into a hole because I have way to many now lol

I've spent hours listening to Elaine, glad to see other people dig her info as well. She was one of the reasons I stop going after fungi so much. She had a pretty simple explanation behind why. People backed her up on it as well. I mean she's increasing yields by 300%...tell me everyone here wouldn't love to see that in our rooms/outdoors
i too have spent many hours on youtube listening to elaine's lectures. it's been a while since i have actually... probably time to go back through a couple and pick up some new info that I forgot about. That's awesome that you've taken a class of hers. and yeah... old lady crush for sure! I thought she was trying to go after the fungal stuff though? I mean, she says there is an organismal balance for each category of plant... weeds, herbaceous plants, woody perennials, and trees... each has their own desire for balance between fungi and bacteria. i just remember her saying "i've got more bacteria than i'll ever need" lol and that was why she was focusing on fungals for that video

I'm looking forward to my microbial ecology class next semester, and i'm hoping that my prof will be interested in letting me bring in some soil and compost samples to look at in labs (since most of the labs are boring AF imo lol). I'm also working on starting some living soil beds in our dismal greenhouse on campus. such a beautiful facility that is completely underutilized and mismanaged. the caretaker just gives no fucks anymore and it shows. did a feasibility report on turning our greenhouse into basically a permaculture farm with 30x48 in beds on castors and just pack that bitch. right now they have no budget and make no money for or with the greenhouse. my plan is designed to not only to have it make money, but to also connect with the campus, students, and community. what seems like a no brainer has been taking them a long time to come to a decision on... go figure.

i'm studying environmental biology. what are you goin to school for?
 
i too have spent many hours on youtube listening to elaine's lectures. it's been a while since i have actually... probably time to go back through a couple and pick up some new info that I forgot about. That's awesome that you've taken a class of hers. and yeah... old lady crush for sure! I thought she was trying to go after the fungal stuff though? I mean, she says there is an organismal balance for each category of plant... weeds, herbaceous plants, woody perennials, and trees... each has their own desire for balance between fungi and bacteria. i just remember her saying "i've got more bacteria than i'll ever need" lol and that was why she was focusing on fungals for that video

I'm looking forward to my microbial ecology class next semester, and i'm hoping that my prof will be interested in letting me bring in some soil and compost samples to look at in labs (since most of the labs are boring AF imo lol). I'm also working on starting some living soil beds in our dismal greenhouse on campus. such a beautiful facility that is completely underutilized and mismanaged. the caretaker just gives no fucks anymore and it shows. did a feasibility report on turning our greenhouse into basically a permaculture farm with 30x48 in beds on castors and just pack that bitch. right now they have no budget and make no money for or with the greenhouse. my plan is designed to not only to have it make money, but to also connect with the campus, students, and community. what seems like a no brainer has been taking them a long time to come to a decision on... go figure.

i'm studying environmental biology. what are you goin to school for?
I remember her saying a lot about diversity, but when it came to sucesional crops the earlier didn't need fungi at all(wheat grass etc). I remember her explaining the almost pure fungal ecosystems that supported large trees, where the biomass was almost 60%. Think of regular grass and weeds. That shit grows fucking everywhere and it's because it's such an early sucesional plant that it only needs bacteria...hence why she says she has enough it, and thus why it grows everywhere.

I could be a bit off but I believe she was speaking in terms of early to late the ratio of diversity and it shifting. 1:10, 1:5, 1:2, 1:1, 1:2 etc etc. I have them downloaded on my phone so I'll check and send the title.

Currently biology, but after that maybe marine biology. Still up in the air. I love soil but lakes and oceans need all the help they can get to keep big corps from ruining them.
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
I remember her saying a lot about diversity, but when it came to sucesional crops the earlier didn't need fungi at all(wheat grass etc). I remember her explaining the almost pure fungal ecosystems that supported large trees, where the biomass was almost 60%. Think of regular grass and weeds. That shit grows fucking everywhere and it's because it's such an early sucesional plant that it only needs bacteria...hence why she says she has enough it, and thus why it grows everywhere.

I could be a bit off but I believe she was speaking in terms of early to late the ratio of diversity and it shifting. 1:10, 1:5, 1:2, 1:1, 1:2 etc etc. I have them downloaded on my phone so I'll check and send the title.

Currently biology, but after that maybe marine biology. Still up in the air. I love soil but lakes and oceans need all the help they can get to keep big corps from ruining them.
i hear you on the water situation. I live in the Great Lakes Region... we've had some major impacts over the past few decades with our waters. I was gonna apply for an internship at a biological station on Beaver Island in Lake Michigan for this summer doing shoreline and nutrient cycle monitoring, but i'm gonna get some more classes out of the way so i don't have to take them after i walk next year and i will just have my internship to do after graduation.

glad to hear you're into the bio stuff though. we need all we can get in that industry!

and yeah i think you're close enough for government work on the bacteria fungal ratios. there are some old growth forest systems left where fungi are 80% of the biomass in the soil! crazy!
 
i hear you on the water situation. I live in the Great Lakes Region... we've had some major impacts over the past few decades with our waters. I was gonna apply for an internship at a biological station on Beaver Island in Lake Michigan for this summer doing shoreline and nutrient cycle monitoring, but i'm gonna get some more classes out of the way so i don't have to take them after i walk next year and i will just have my internship to do after graduation.

glad to hear you're into the bio stuff though. we need all we can get in that industry!

and yeah i think you're close enough for government work on the bacteria fungal ratios. there are some old growth forest systems left where fungi are 80% of the biomass in the soil! crazy!
Oh the great lakes...not to mention the dick who put the carp in the systems, and the impact it had on the sturgeon population.

I'll probably end up at a state government, which sucks because...drug testing lol and the abundance of biologist here in CO probably means I'll end up in SD or some shit lol I'll love my job either way, but growing some good green is always better without fear of the police knocking
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Oh the great lakes...not to mention the dick who put the carp in the systems, and the impact it had on the sturgeon population.

I'll probably end up at a state government, which sucks because...drug testing lol and the abundance of biologist here in CO probably means I'll end up in SD or some shit lol I'll love my job either way, but growing some good green is always better without fear of the police knocking
so with legalization out there... what are the citizen level laws regarding cultivation?
 
so with legalization out there... what are the citizen level laws regarding cultivation?
Here in CO? I have 12 total indoors. I only run 4 outdoors...cause yield makes up for it lol

6 for rec
6 for med
(So 12 per household)

With my med card I couldn't of paid more money for more plants but honestly 6 in veg 6 in flower is enough to keep me busy lol plus I'm getting about 10-11 ounces every 55 days. Which is more than I can smoke lol
 

SSGrower

Well-Known Member
so with legalization out there... what are the citizen level laws regarding cultivation?
Without card depends on number of adults living in the residence and on the local juristicition. Generally its 6 per adult 3 "ready to harvest" 3 in veg. with a limit of 12 per household.
 
if you know what you're doing you can do some damage with 12 plants lol
5 ounces a month is more than I need lol and outdoor season is about 2lbs. Ssgrowee pretty much condensed it down. You can add your medical 6 to your rec 6 though, or at least that's what the Doc told me at relaxed clarity.

I don't get to crazy with training indoors, I probably could yield more but honestly it doesn't bother me.
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
Hey all !
I was about to start growing my own ferts (alfalfa, comfrey, yarrow), but after some research, theres something i dont get.
As all of them are bio-accumulators, they should have a similar mineral profile to the soil they were grown in, so let's say my soil is lacking Ca, does it mean I will never be able to fill this lack with some ferts grown in this same soil ?
In other words does one need to have an already perfectly balanced soil, in order to grow his own ferts ?
Sort of! The point of green manures around your property is to use plants like comfrey that have deep roots that penetrate the hard soil and access nutrients that other plants can't. Then you cut the plants and mulch with them. When they break down they release the nutrients in plant accessible form. As the organic matter breaks down it creates fulvic and humic acids that help break down minerals in your soil and make more of the nutrients in your soil more plant accessible.

It's basically a way to mine nutrients out of the soil in your area.
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
Since you are a bit of a vet to the site, what's the most common compost technique the gals and guys use around here? I prefer thermal but everyone's got a system that works for them, curious as to what's the most popular
I do thermal compost with leaves, rabbit bedding and manure, rotten garden veggies, coffee grounds and chaff, and egg shells. after it's cool I put it in my worm beds, and add food scraps. Once all the food scraps are gone I'll pull the castings and mulch my beds and that's all I use for fertilizer. I use 100 gallon no til soil beds/smartpots, and I fill in the gaps between then with 20 gallon no til tubs and ten gallon pots that I use recycled soil mixed with compost to grow with.

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calliandra

Well-Known Member
the compost and microbe guru around these parts is @calliandra and she has been taking some online classes with Elaine Ingham (come on now cali don't be modest ;) )
haha thank you for the kind words, Shluby, I assure you, I'm not modest, just mainly confused and in the middle of sorting stuff most of the time lol

I've spent hours listening to Elaine, glad to see other people dig her info as well. She was one of the reasons I stop going after fungi so much. She had a pretty simple explanation behind why. People backed her up on it as well. I mean she's increasing yields by 300%...tell me everyone here wouldn't love to see that in our rooms/outdoors
Yeah and this is the reason I am getting turned off forums myself...
There's a really great danger of misunderstanding what Ingham is saying, because she is so good at simplifying to make complex and largely still mysterious mechanisms understandable to the broad public.
I am pretty sure that whatever she said about fungi wasn't that they're not important - and had to do with the specific context she was talking in, a specific point she was trying to make ;)

The Soil Food Web model - and yes, it is but a model, though I am certain it's much closer to what is actually happening in the soil than previous chemical models propose (the chemistry being but a shadow theater of the actual biological interactions, of which the SFW is a rough sketch!) - is based on the concept of succession, each step of the way from barren soil to old growth forest showing an increment in the ratio of fungal to bacterial mass for the primary miners, but always requiring higher trophic organisms to actually cycle the mined nutrients into plant-available forms.

The part of the successional scale that does not require fungal presence can only sustain opportunistic pioneers with short and fast lifecycles that we tend to call "weeds". Well if that's what you're trying to grow, you're golden! But neither grass let alone wheat belong in that category ;)

But as soon as you get into growing annual veggies (and that's where cannabis fits in too!), you're already at a F:B ratio of 0.5-1, plus the higher-trophic cyclers to go with that. Amongst other things like nutrient balances we have as yet very little insight into, we need those fungi to build the macroaggregrates from the microaggregates assembled by bacterial activity and the glues they excrete in the process, stringing them together with their hyphae. This is what makes our soil build a structure that can retain water better and stay aerobic. In fact, Ingham spends large amounts of time explaining this.

What I do find interesting, is that actually, I do not know where the marker numbers describing typical ratios for the different stages of succession actually come from. :shock: The ecosystemic concept itself (i.e., that it takes bacteria and fungi as miners AND microbial grazers for nutrient cycling) was confirmed by experimental results published in 1985 (Interactions of bacteria, fungi and their nematode grazers: Effects on nutrient cycling and plant growth. Ecological Monographs 55:119-140.).
There is definitely going to be scientific backing for the ratios - after all, Ingham has ruined life for me by insisting on not believing anyone, until seeing data that was gained in a way that doesn't defeat the experiment (cf the classic example of trying to gain insight about microbial populations of healthy soils in a petridish gone anaerobic) - so she's not going to turn around and pull numbers out of her nose herself!
But how and where from!
I will definitely look into this!

As for compost, I can't say much at present, I'll be exploring more this year, with my vermicompost and hopefully a few thermal batches too.
Yes a thermal compost can be gotten through the thermophilic phase in a very short time.
I am positing however that TIME is still a relevant factor when we're going for those higher fungal populations. The grass won't grow faster by pulling on it.
That and of course input quality in terms of microbial diversity.
Just my working hypothesis for now ;)

Sorry for jumping in midconversation like that, I probably missed some nuances so please forgive me! :p
Cheers!
 

calliandra

Well-Known Member
Haha I have taken her microscope class! She's my old lady crush for sure!
Very cool!
Are you assessing your soils and composts then?
What are they telling you? :D

My biggest takeaway to now has been seeing how plants start trying to grow in soils that aren't successionally adequate yet. Pretty well too, but - and here's the crux - still prone to pests and diseases. It moves me deeply!

That and having turned around a plant's health by ignoring the yells and screams of onlookers egging me to add more nutes, and brewing up an inoculum of protozoa instead, which were quitely missing in the ecosystem :bigjoint:
2017-10-25_day16-NLH (1).JPG 2018-02-02 (7).JPG

Cheers!
 

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
Idk just from my research(not saying anyone is wrong) I just don't think fungi has a huge role on cannabis. I mean absolutely some fungi does. I just don't chase it like a lot of guys and gals do. I see some people doing fungal dominate teas and soil...canabis seems to be an early sucesional plant, if that's true prob need a more bacteria to fungi ratio. I tried it and never saw anything different.

I fucking love beans lol and peas...
If you have an already well established organic mix fungi will dominate it once roots begin to fill out the container. A compost pile that's been sitting awhile should be full of fungi. Doesn't take much as it colonizes so fast using plant roots as conduits.
The emphasis on adding a source of external mycorrhizae or brewing fungal teas is for converted growers like me who might start out with a relatively inactive mix. Adding granular myco made such a huge difference in overall plant and soil health; Now that all my soil has been recycled a billion times don't need to chase after fungi either; but I still add it to the hole at each transplant.
 
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