Should Christians judge God?

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
We don't have any proof that aliens exist, but given the vastness of space it's pretty silly to think we're the only life anywhere in existence. I also believe there are more elements in the periodic table, than the ones we've discovered, but I don't have any solid evidence to support it.
So what you're really saying is that you are a hypocrite. When it suits you to believe something, or not to dismiss it, without proof, then that's OK. But if someone else does . . .

Beefbisquit said:
You proved that you are incapable of differentiating between belief in something and the reality of that something existing. Your belief in Santa as a child had NOTHING to do with the actual Santa Clause existing. Even if every single person on the planet started to believe in Santa, it wouldn't make him exist.

Your belief that Santa existed as a child wasn't a 'fact', and it certianly wasn't the 'truth'. You were in fact, lied to by your parents and they pulled a very elaborate scheme in order to fool you into belief. If you consider that 'truth' and facts', I feel sad for you.

Your perception of 'facts' and 'truth' does not affect the actual objective truth. Either Santa exists or he doesn't. Belief is irrelevant.
No, fool. What it proves is that, as a naive child you BELIEVED something was TRUE. As a less-naive adult, you discovered it wasn't.

It proves belief in knowledge and truth change over time as man evolves (grows up), and that only the naive believe things will stay the same.

That's you: applying today's knowledge and understanding to tomorrow's possibilities. Unless, of course, you are a hypocrite.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Nice ad hominem attack that you barely disguised as an example you have there.
Dumbfuck, can you please stop stating the obvious? It was an ad hominem. It was not disguised. You're the only one who feels the need to point this out. This is further evidence of my convictions.

See how easy it is to draw conclusions, beliefs and so-called facts when the person drawing them is also the person defining the evidence? It might take you a while to figure that one out . . .
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Beef, seriously, fuck this idiot. Anything you say to him will only benefit his life. Let him drown in his own ignorance, we don't need idiots like him in our world and he will not benefit your life.

Fuck him.

This is where I have to ask you, and I will abide myself, stop feeding this stupid fuckin' troll. He is obviously not interested in learning anything. He's not interested in gaining anything. He is only interested in arguing with you, it will last until one of you breaks and when, inevitably you do because of the unyielding ignorance and stupidity on his part, he'll undoubtedly claim some lackluster victory because "you're so closed minded!! I was right all along! See this proves it!!!" or "atheists simply can't see past the present into the future!"...

This is one of those people Sam Harris in your sig is describing.. He's essentially saying "Fuck those idiots, they'll kill themselves out so why should we spend resources on figuring out a way to eliminate them?", and he's right, people like PC don't last a couple generations. He's too arrogant to learn anything and too ignorant to accept the truth, even if it bit him in the ass. Yep, I know him reading this will ignite some fire under his ass and he'll likely have some beefy response to this post, but guess what? I couldn't give a shit less! I plan on printing it out as TP and wiping my ass with it! As that's all it's good for anyway! I take solace in the fact that he will waste more time attempting to explain to me why I should believe his bullshit than it takes for me to read it, already knowing I NEVER fuckin' will!! LMFAO! So essentially, he knows typing out the long message he has planned after reading this post (huh Prawn, lol so cute!) is simply a gigantic waste of his time, because he thinks I actually, truly, care what he has to say... when I don't! He could post "bananafadhfadfiuaeoriu ahdflkadlskf akdflkadfi0? KLJlkadjfoa ldfjoiaufo9aje? KJK!!!?" and it would still register exactly the same..


Oh! You say I just lost because I resorted to such a post? Haha! Well you're a fucking idiot, because if that's the case, that's exactly what you've been doing this entire thread! So, here, STFU real quick, turn around, and just walk away... your hypocrisy is blatant.


Want some more?


 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
:roll: The rational - intelligent - position is to make an allowance for the possibility something may be provable, until such time as it is disproved (to the best of our knowledge at the time) - no matter the likelihood.
Nope. That's just your position, not one of rational people. I've already showed you examples of how and why non-belief is the default position. No one is saying "reject every possibility until adequate evidence is shown", which is the straw man argument you're fighting against. It's not the argument I'm making and you know that, or you really are just that dense.... I'd like to think you're not that stupid.

Skeptics can still entertain ideas as possible even without evidence. You prattle on about 'string theory' like you have an idea about what it is, yet there's no evidence to support it. It's an attempt to unify Electromagnetic theory and quantum theory, which it hasn't done yet. Does it mean it's false? Not necessarily, it means the jury is still out and belief should be suspended until further evidence/calculations/experiments/etc., have been conducted.

Because it is still possible.
You entertain all possibilities as equal. That's just retarded.

What is not rational - nor intelligent - is to dismiss that possibility outright.
No one has done this. This is your claim, not mine. What is more important is assigning a probability to beliefs so that false beliefs may be rooted out, and true beliefs may continue on. I still don't think you understand that non-belief is not necessarily the rejection of a belief, only the suspension of belief pending further evidence.

Going back to the example about superpowers;

If you tell me you have superhuman strength, and I say "I don't believe you", it doesn't mean I reject any possibility of you having superhuman strength it means I haven't seen justification for that belief yet.

God damn, you're slow! You keep making the same fucking argument about the same fucking thing, and it's ridiculoius. You're not even arguing about the points I'm making, you're just making up an argument to fight against to make it seem like you're contributing something to the discussion.

A truly rational person wouldn't be so closed-minded. Because closed-mindedness is . . . irrational. There is absolutely no reason to dismiss something if you have no proof, because nothing is yet proven, so it is not conclusive.
Close-mindedness is not entertaining an idea regardless of the evidence that supports it. That's not what I'm, or anyone on here, is doing. Again, that is the argument you are choosing to fight against, not the argument I'm making. If you want to have a real discussion I'm all ears - but you are compelled to continually create your own straw man to fight against.

People need to be open-minded enough to entertain radical new ideas, but not so open-minded that their brain falls out. Your brain? Is on the floor....

You're basing your conclusive opinion (and again it's just your opinion - you clearly don't decide what is rational or otherwise) on a likelihood, not a possibility.
Conclusive opinion? Nothing is certain, only different levels of probability, so I'm not sure what you mean. It's possible for virtually every rule in science to be turned on its head tomorrow, but based on the evidence we have today, it's very unlikely. Why do you keep making straw man arguments? Is this the only way you can have a discussion? By putting words in peoples mouths, and then arguing against things they didn't say?

It is likely when you spin a roulette wheel the number "0" won't come up - but it is still possible. Yet both of you would still try to rationalise the possibility of "0" never coming up because a) the likelihood is small and b) you have not witnessed it yet.
Another straw man argument. I would not rationalize zero not coming up, where do you get this bullshit from?? You can fucking see it on the board, there are 36 numbers and the 00 has a 1-36 chance of happening. It's demonstrable and testable, and as such has been demonstrated and tested many, many times.

Just stop doing examples. You obviously haven't thought them through.

Does that mean it will never happen? There is still the likelihood it will never happen - even at odds of 36:1, you could spin a roulette wheel until the end of time and "0" may never come up. There are no guarantees - there are only possibilities.
The likelihood of that happening, spinning a roulette wheel infinitely and never getting 00, is so small that for practical purposes you could call it impossible; even though the possibility does exist that 00 never comes up the chances of that happening are so minuscule it's not worth considering. In other words, ​there is no good reason to believe that if run a roulette table infinitely that 00 would never come up. Possible? Yes. But so astronomically small it's stupid to consider in any meaningful way.

The only people who have "default positions" are those with only two positions: yes/no; right/wrong; belief/non-belief.
You have listed dichotomies (other than right/wrong which is subjective). There is no answer outside of yes/no. If I ask "Does 2+2=4?", it either does or it doesn't. There is no 'in between' answer, because it's a dichotomy. What answer for that question fits between yes or no? There isn't one. Even if you didn't know if 2+2=4, the answer would still be 'yes'. Your knowledge of the answer doesn't affect the truth statement about 2+2=4.

The same goes with belief. You either believe or you don't believe, there is no in between. You either believe Santa is real, or you do not. "I don't know" is not an answer when it's regarding beliefs, as "I don't know" is a knowledge claim not a belief claim. No one is asking if you know if god exists, people are asking if you believe god exists.

I'm not one of them. But it must be comforting to live in such a simple world as yours, where you can be so sure about everything.
Again, another straw man argument. No one has claimed anything to do with certainty, that's your own argument against yourself.
Does it feel good to make up arguments no one is stating then attempt to beat them up? lol

The world is anything but simple, not sure why you're bringing up the complexity of the universe now.
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Logic's not your strong point, is it? The bigger the universe - the more stars, planets and/or life-supporting configurations there are - the more chance of an intelligent species evolving that could very well find us. It has nothing to do with pure distance and everything to do with technology to overcome that distance.
Baseless assumption. You are assuming;

1) Alien life is intelligent
2) Alien life has greater technology than us
3) Alien life want to use that technology to search the stars
4) Alien life wants to specifically look for other life among the stars
5) Alien life specifically wants to find intelligent life
6) Alien life has the technology to search unfathomable regions of space
7) Alien life is looking in the correct area of the cosmos for that life
8) Alien life has located us among the trillions of planets in our galaxy alone.
9) Alien life has the technology to travel at light speed or faster to actually reach us

Here's the assumptions I'm making;

1) There exists alien life in some form, somewhere, in the universe among the trillions x trillions x trillions of planets.

Do you see the difference between reasonable belief and unreasonable belief? Hmmmmm......

The greater the number of life-supporting configurations in our universe, the greater the chances of an intelligent species evolving that will learn to conquer distance.
How do you know it's even possible to conquer the distance we're talking about? What reasoning do you use to come to that conclusion?

So you've again limited your argument to just one facet of a debate (distance), therefore failing to take into consideration another possibility (the course of evolution). And you call that "rational"? I don't.
You think aliens are going to 'evolve' (pretty sure you don't know what evolve means) to travel faster than light? lol
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
So what you're really saying is that you are a hypocrite. When it suits you to believe something, or not to dismiss it, without proof, then that's OK. But if someone else does . . .
No, I'm saying basically every planet in the universe is a number on a roulette wheel and the chances of one of them being 00 is good.

No, fool. What it proves is that, as a naive child you BELIEVED something was TRUE. As a less-naive adult, you discovered it wasn't.

It proves belief in knowledge and truth change over time as man evolves (grows up), and that only the naive believe things will stay the same.

That's you: applying today's knowledge and understanding to tomorrow's possibilities. Unless, of course, you are a hypocrite.
'Belief' in knowledge? LOL

To 'know' something is to have evidence, to believe something is.... well you're a perfect example, you don't need evidence to formulate a belief. People believe all kinds of stupid shit just for the sake of it. Knowledge is demonstrable, belief isn't always demonstrable.

YOU NEVER HAD KNOWLEDGE OF SANTA AS A KID, ONLY A BELIEF. IF YOU HAD KNOWLEDGE (EXPERIENCE) OF SANTA HE WOULD EXIST. IDIOT.
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Beef, seriously, fuck this idiot. Anything you say to him will only benefit his life. Let him drown in his own ignorance, we don't need idiots like him in our world and he will not benefit your life.

Fuck him.

This is where I have to ask you, and I will abide myself, stop feeding this stupid fuckin' troll. He is obviously not interested in learning anything. He's not interested in gaining anything. He is only interested in arguing with you, it will last until one of you breaks and when, inevitably you do because of the unyielding ignorance and stupidity on his part, he'll undoubtedly claim some lackluster victory because "you're so closed minded!! I was right all along! See this proves it!!!" or "atheists simply can't see past the present into the future!"...

This is one of those people Sam Harris in your sig is describing.. He's essentially saying "Fuck those idiots, they'll kill themselves out so why should we spend resources on figuring out a way to eliminate them?", and he's right, people like PC don't last a couple generations. He's too arrogant to learn anything and too ignorant to accept the truth, even if it bit him in the ass. Yep, I know him reading this will ignite some fire under his ass and he'll likely have some beefy response to this post, but guess what? I couldn't give a shit less! I plan on printing it out as TP and wiping my ass with it! As that's all it's good for anyway! I take solace in the fact that he will waste more time attempting to explain to me why I should believe his bullshit than it takes for me to read it, already knowing I NEVER fuckin' will!! LMFAO! So essentially, he knows typing out the long message he has planned after reading this post (huh Prawn, lol so cute!) is simply a gigantic waste of his time, because he thinks I actually, truly, care what he has to say... when I don't! He could post "bananafadhfadfiuaeoriu ahdflkadlskf akdflkadfi0? KLJlkadjfoa ldfjoiaufo9aje? KJK!!!?" and it would still register exactly the same..


Oh! You say I just lost because I resorted to such a post? Haha! Well you're a fucking idiot, because if that's the case, that's exactly what you've been doing this entire thread! So, here, STFU real quick, turn around, and just walk away... your hypocrisy is blatant.


Want some more?



I hear ya, man.

What's most troubling is his lack of ability to address the actual points I'm making. Instead, he just makes up his own arguments and pretends that's what I said. lol

It's so dishonest and void of any intellectual merit it's mildly amusing.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
One thing I find curious about this is that we're looking at someone like 'santa' and talking about him being real.

If we could just for one sec, let's discuss what he represents to people both young and old?


side note: there's 'the thing', and then there's the 'underlying metaphysic' of 'the thing'.

another side note: when people start talking about other people passing on and it being a good thing because they are ignorant (or whatever), it starts to get pretty fckn ridiculous.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
It's pretty easy to verify things. Things in reality are testable. Things that are not in reality are not-testable.
Allow me to take issue with this. All things that stand test are real. But do all real things stand test? I will allow that reality is larger than our current rationality, even when all that is rationally consistent is real. I think there is room for certain instances of the "supernatural" insofar as they don't yet hew to our juvenile models of Nature.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
^ Exactly. It's all good and well to say something is real because you've tested it, but what if you don't know how to test something? What if you lack the skills, equipment or knowledge to quantify something? Does that make it any less real?

If you can't test it, how can you dismiss it?
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Baseless assumption. You are assuming;

1) Alien life is intelligent - It is on our planet. Just.
2) Alien life has greater technology than us - Japan has greater technology than East Timor. It's not hard.
3) Alien life want to use that technology to search the stars - Which is exactly what we are doing. You were saying?
4) Alien life wants to specifically look for other life among the stars - See above.
5) Alien life specifically wants to find intelligent life - See above.
6) Alien life has the technology to search unfathomable regions of space - Hubble. It's not "unfathomable", but we're slowly getting there . . .
7) Alien life is looking in the correct area of the cosmos for that life - Which is exactly how we are narrowing down our own search, looking for "habitable" planets.
8) Alien life has located us among the trillions of planets in our galaxy alone. - Gotta start somewhere. And the earlier you start, the more chance you'll find what you're looking for.
9) Alien life has the technology to travel at light speed or faster to actually reach us - They said man would never fly, too. You don't necessarily have to travel faster than light to get somewhere that is light years away . . .

Here's the assumptions I'm making;

1) There exists alien life in some form, somewhere, in the universe among the trillions x trillions x trillions of planets.

Do you see the difference between reasonable belief and unreasonable belief? Hmmmmm......
Everything you wrote of my "assumptions" applies to man. What is unreasonable about what we have already done and/or aspire to do?

If we can do it, why can't some other form of life?

You're so naive. You've also conveniently side-stepped the issue of probability: The bigger the universe, the more probable all those things above. After all, if this tiny corner of the cosmos can produce us, why can't another tiny corner of the cosmos produce something vastly more intelligent and capable than we are at this point in time?

You're deluded if you think the most likely probability is that we are the most intelligent form of life in the universe.

No, scrap that. You're not deluded. You genuinely believe it, don't you?
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
another side note: when people start talking about other people passing on and it being a good thing because they are ignorant (or whatever), it starts to get pretty fckn ridiculous.
I think he's a bit emotionally unstable. You can tell by his mood swings. Probably not his fault. I'm sure he doesn't mean it.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
YOU NEVER HAD KNOWLEDGE OF SANTA AS A KID, ONLY A BELIEF. IF YOU HAD KNOWLEDGE (EXPERIENCE) OF SANTA HE WOULD EXIST. IDIOT.
As a kid, there was plenty of "evidence" of Santa - unless your memory is short. There were presents under a tree, cards, a plate of cookies and a glass of milk (or something stronger) left out that was consumed, many "reliable witnesses" (parents, other adults, TV, etc), and of course - to the juvenile mind - it all made perfect sense.

The allusion you don't seem capable of grasping at this stage is that the adult (evolved, current-day, modern man) mind is not so different to the juvenile mind: it uses the same processes to reason, based on sensory experience.

If a climate scientist tells you climate change is real, do believe him/her? You likely ask to see the evidence - which, being a layman, you probably can't interpret anyway (moot) - the scientist shows it to you, and then there's an element of trust that the evidence is credible and that the scientist is an expert in his/her field and in a qualified position to interpret and assert that evidence.

As a child, this is no different to asking your parents - who you trust implicitly - to provide evidence of Santa (which they do ^ see above) - and then concluding that, yes, he must be real because everyone says he's real and there's evidence of it on Christmas Day.

The only difference is that, as you grow up - as you gain knowledge and refine your thought processes - you start to consider things outside the evidence, or start to question the evidence itself and the people providing it more critically.

You are not in a position to do this as a child, but as an adult, you are.

There is no difference between a child on Christmas Day and, say, ancient man believing a giant snake created the rivers: based on all the evidence they have at the time; based on who they speak to and trust; based on their limited understanding of the world.

For modern men - men like you - to believe they suddenly understand all there is to understand about everything around them is, quite frankly, ludicrous.

You believed in Santa as a child, didn't you? Then you found out he wasn't real. So what if everything - or even just a small part of everything - you thought you believed, turned out to be not true?

Because most certainly there will be many things - many things - that you think now are true, which will be proven to be false later.

The problem is, right now you're in no position to know. Maybe one day man will be in a position to know. But right now, he's just a little kid staring up at the stars on Christmas Day wondering if it's all just a big gift left out under a tree . . .
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Dude, get a grip. It's only a debate.
This is inconsistent with your previous posts, just look at your history.. But you're right, I overreacted. I apologize. I agree to act civil from here on out if you do, too, which means responding to counterpoints accordingly, and not responding to ad hominems that nobody believes. Deal?

If you can't test it, how can you dismiss it?
If you can't test it, how can you possibly accept it? How can you base what you positively believe in on something you can't test? Wouldn't that mean you must believe everything that can't be tested? How do you distinguish between what you believe in with what can and cannot be tested?

Everything you wrote of my "assumptions" applies to man. What is unreasonable about what we have already done and/or aspire to do?

If we can do it, why can't some other form of life?

You're so naive. You've also conveniently side-stepped the issue of probability: The bigger the universe, the more probable all those things above. After all, if this tiny corner of the cosmos can produce us, why can't another tiny corner of the cosmos produce something vastly more intelligent and capable than we are at this point in time?
I am absolutely sure it could. The problem is the vastness of space. Call it what you want, I fully understand your point, that since we are limited by the technology of our time, it is foolish to assume things won't change in the future. Listen to me, I agree with you on that point, every point you've made about that I agree with, in the 1,800's nobody knew shit about the theory of relativity, I accept that in the year 2,500, nobody today will know shit about the advancements in physics then. What I have been trying to get you to understand is that in the same way we can't understand the theories of the future, we can't base present science/predictions/conclusions on what we hope might come to be later.. We only have the ability to perform honest science with what we have available today, to base predictions on hopeful advancements of the future, while in some aspects can be very beneficial, can also be very deceiving when it comes to honest debate/science. I applaud you for getting as far, like I said before with zero disrespect, you remind me of me when I was younger, full of arrogance and an unlimited supply of willpower and energy. I think if you take a good look at 'ego', you'll have an insanely promising push forward. Again, man, I'm not interested in conflict with people, I only tell you what I wish I'd have been told when I had the exact same reactions you have now.

the more stars, planets and/or life-supporting configurations there are - the more chance of an intelligent species evolving that could very well find us. It has nothing to do with pure distance and everything to do with technology to overcome that distance.
Why would you assume that enough time has passed for even the earliest of civilizations to have advanced far enough to overcome the obstacle the vast distances of interstellar space provide according to Einstein, according to what we know about space time and space travel?

The greater the number of life-supporting configurations in our universe, the greater the chances of an intelligent species evolving that will learn to conquer distance.
100% correct, but again, that begs my previous question..

So you've again limited your argument to just one facet of a debate (distance), therefore failing to take into consideration another possibility (the course of evolution). And you call that "rational"? I don't.
I think it's the most rational position to take, considering there is no good reason to believe that any alien race with an unlimited amount of time (keeping in mind the known and verified age of the universe is 13.7 billion years) would advance in any particular way. You no more know an advanced alien race would evolve underwater and focus on extracting energy from within their own planet than one would focus on expansion via interstellar travel.. The options are not unlimited as we exist inside of a finite universe. My argument is that until you do have some kind of evidence to support any position, it is unwise to claim certainty and dishonest to claim support or evidence based on mathematical odds.. If you don't understand what point I'm trying to make, I can try to explain it in another way.

Again, man, it takes something else to ask even for clarification in fear of being seen as unintelligent, this is bullshit. Don't worry about asking for clarification, to me, that shit is viewed as strength. And again, I apologize for making an ass of myself earlier, I'm leaving it up as evidence I lost my shit for a stupid reason. I don't care about that shit. I just hope you learn something from it. Working on that seems to be an ongoing process.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
The universe from our perspective maybe 14 billion years old, but from another perspective - from a different part of the universe that may be expanding more slowly or faster - it could be relatively older, or younger.

We base one year on one rotation of our planet around the sun. We have no idea what else is out there: how fast or slow it is possible to evolve under difference circumstances (possibly related to how much conflict or planetary change there is in such places), nor what other factors may influence the advancement of particular species.

Sharks, turtles and many reptiles evolved millions of years ago and haven't evolved much since because they were obviously well-suited to their environments. But if they weren't - like, say, mammals of the same era - then it's quite possible they would have continued to evolve.

If evolution can slow down, then most certainly it can speed up, depending on the environment.

So whilst basing the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in human terms is not irrational (as I have already pointed out), it is certainly not fallible! We really have no idea what else is out there, nor whether we have already been discovered.

Because, let's face it, if there is intelligent life observing us right now, they're intelligent enough to remain out of view lest they freak us the fuck out!
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Allow me to take issue with this. All things that stand test are real. But do all real things stand test? I will allow that reality is larger than our current rationality, even when all that is rationally consistent is real. I think there is room for certain instances of the "supernatural" insofar as they don't yet hew to our juvenile models of Nature.
Not all real things have been tested. But if things are real, they have properties that manifest themselves in existence.

There are still good and bad reasons for believing something.
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Everything you wrote of my "assumptions" applies to man. What is unreasonable about what we have already done and/or aspire to do?

If we can do it, why can't some other form of life?
It's possible. We haven't done it yet, so I'm not sure why you're so positive it's possible. You have nothing to base it off, but your imagination.

You're so naive. You've also conveniently side-stepped the issue of probability: The bigger the universe, the more probable all those things above. After all, if this tiny corner of the cosmos can produce us, why can't another tiny corner of the cosmos produce something vastly more intelligent and capable than we are at this point in time?
Without knowing the actual likelihood of other life existing and the likelihood of light speed travel/faster than light speed travel being possible, you have nothing to base your assertions off. You like to use your imagination as evidence.

You're deluded if you think the most likely probability is that we are the most intelligent form of life in the universe.

No, scrap that. You're not deluded. You genuinely believe it, don't you?
When did I say that? There could be vastly more intelligent species than us, but that doesn't mean they are capable of traveling the distances required for visiting earth/other planets. That's an assumption you're making based on nothing but your imagination.

Stop making straw man arguments, fuck-tard. Is that the only way you can contribute anything? By fighting against arguments no on is making?
 
Top