Should there be a cap on attainable wealth?

Should there be a cap on attainable wealth?

  • Total voters
    58
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
All of the minerals on earth came from where? Space. All of the minerals on earth will eventually return where? Space. Just because YOU'VE limited yourself to two dimensional thinking, doesn't mean that's all there is....which sort of applies to many of our discussions if you think about it.

All ball busting aside, I posit that one person can "create" wealth and it doesn't have to be at the expense of, or practical limitation on another persons ability to create wealth.
I agree that some resources in a given area, earth for example have limitations, but that there is STILL much opportunity for inventive, industrious or creative people to become prosperous if that is their goal. (you knew this was coming) Further, the greatest limitation on creation of opportunity has been thru government related intervention.
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Sorry Rob, the reality is that capitalism is just a very large pyramid scheme - and like all such schemes the participants actually believe that their profits are endless.

All of your economic "opportunities" are based on an expanding consumer base. Each consumer therein also needs an increasing income in order to further this endless expansion of wealth - the limit is the same no matter how you look at it, the earth and its resources are finite and so therefore is wealth. If you want to talk about expansion beyond the earth, fine, but all of the intial problems remain. All wealth is based on the physical. We see that in a country that brings less and less out of the ground.
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
NLXSK1 said:
This is the part people seem to miss...

It is not a zero sum game. If one person is a billionaire it does not mean that 1 million people are poor because he has all their money.

I like to use the example of a house.

You start with an empty plot of land (the only thing arguably finite in this example) the land is worth 30,000. Say it takes 50,000 dollars in materials to build a house. And it also takes 50,000 in labor to build a house. Once the house is finished it is worth 150,000.

Where did the extra 20,000 come from? It was created by assembling materials into a house worth more money than the parts.

That is why we have an economy worth trillions of dollars. Businesses create wealth by providing goods and services.

So, dont be a hater, be a creator....
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Where did the extra weath come from? your "labor" is composed of food, gasoline and time. all of those things are finite as well in one way or another, if what you say is true, that weath is not a zero sum then there should be an infinte amount of all materials. If there is an infinite amount of gold, then gold is no longer worth much. Scarcity is the basis of perceived value.
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
NLXSK1 said:
We already have that system....

The government is currently spending 40 cents more per dollar than it is collecting. The rich cannot possibly pay for all of it.

I am suggesting we cut spending before there are no more rich people left.

Why is everyone expected to do with less when the government always needs more?
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If wealth is not a zero sum game, then what are you worried about? there will always be enough wealth to go around no matter how much government takes.
 
M

mastercheetos

Member
NoDrama said:
You are a dreamer, unless you plan on replacing all of congress with people who somehow believe that limiting potential will help the poor, well it aint EVER gonna happen. Limiting someones potential will only HARM the poor.

Jimmy Buffet is a poor man compared to Warren Buffet.

You are going to have a JD in a year? Ambulance chasing is in your career path.
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I'm not saying that this will ever happen. I know that Congress isn't going to implement a salary cap. I think they should though. We are talking about hypothetically what would be best, not what is likely to happen.

And just b/c I am going to be a lawyer doesn't mean I will be chasing ambulances. There are plenty of respectable jobs in the legal field that are good for society.... What do you do that makes you such a humanitarian?
 
Harrekin

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
mastercheetos said:
I would agree that it somewhat happens in the real world. People in a company who have more education, people who work harder, people who's jobs are more difficult, get paid more money. However, I don't think that the current capitalist system employed in the US properly accounts for the differences in the different jobs throughout companies. Sure, accountants, lawyers, etc. working at a company deserve to be paid more than a janitor. However the disparities between these millionaire/billionaire salaries and the rest of the employees are unwarranted. They aren't working that much harder and providing that much more where they deserve to be getting paid X times more than a lawyer/accountant/manager that works for the company. I think that a cap would solve this problem b/c millionaires/billionaires wouldn't be able to exploit their position of power by paying themselves and other high ranking employees whatever the fuck they want. And this would leave more money to pay the rest of the employees what the actually deserve.
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And who decides how much people actually deserve?

How about you fuck off to China, they actually like your cock-dribble Communism over there.
 
M

mastercheetos

Member
Harrekin said:
And who decides how much people actually deserve?

How about you fuck off to China, they actually like your cock-dribble Communism over there.
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Well we need some system to determine how much employees get paid. There is a finite amount of money and there has to be some way of allocating it. So you don't think we should pay people based on the work they do? Yea maybe ur right. Maybe we should allocate money based on penis size, whoever has the darkest hair, or whoever likes basketball the most.

In our capitalist system the rich get to decide how much everyone's work is worth. They pay themselves too much and everyone else too little. My point is that a salary cap would help to alleviate this problem.
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
Sorry Rob, the reality is that capitalism is just a very large pyramid scheme - and like all such schemes the participants actually believe that their profits are endless.

All of your economic "opportunities" are based on an expanding consumer base. Each consumer therein also needs an increasing income in order to further this endless expansion of wealth - the limit is the same no matter how you look at it, the earth and its resources are finite and so therefore is wealth. If you want to talk about expansion beyond the earth, fine, but all of the intial problems remain. All wealth is based on the physical. We see that in a country that brings less and less out of the ground.
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Not really. Some wealth is transferred that isn't based on the immediate exchange of physical goods. Some "wealth" is the exchange of an idea or of a service or a repair.

I do agree with you that in a given area, resources can be measured in a finite way. I do not always equate "resources" with wealth though, but I can see where many times they do coincide.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
NLXSK1 said:
You are talking about communism/socialsm Padwan... We dont want that here in America.

You manipulate a capitalistic society by GETTING A JOB... Jobs are not immoral and the people who work them are not bad.

Laying around complaining that mommy and daddy are not taking care of you any more and you deserve 80K because your banker neighbor makes that much is not moral, it is immoral.

How about you develop a work ethic to go along with that conscience and go make money so you can re-distribute it to the people around you that are less fortunate....

Fucking parasite.
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I'm talking about what's right. We also don't want the crony capitalism that's got a stranglehold on American government, but you're too blind to see it. To you, that's business.

Getting a job doesn't change that.

You people think whatever you want, it's got nothing to do with anyone taking care of me, it's got everything to do with greedy assholes manipulating the system for their benefit at our (yes even YOUR) detriment, effectively disabling millions from taking care of themselves. They are abusing my right to the pursuit of happiness, one of America's founding values.

You simply don't get it, and probably never will.
 
NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
I'm talking about what's right. We also don't want the crony capitalism that's got a stranglehold on American government, but you're too blind to see it. To you, that's business.

Getting a job doesn't change that.

You people think whatever you want, it's got nothing to do with anyone taking care of me, it's got everything to do with greedy assholes manipulating the system for their benefit at our (yes even YOUR) detriment, effectively disabling millions from taking care of themselves. They are abusing my right to the pursuit of happiness, one of America's founding values.

You simply don't get it, and probably never will.
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You dont get it.

I have control over all businesses in the free marketplace. That control is driven by my decisions to buy their goods or services or not buy their goods or services.

If a greedy asshole tries to manipulate the system, then a bunch of greedy assholes will jump on the bandwagon and competition will reduce the price of that good or service to a level that can be supported by it's customer base. It is automatic, driven by the individual choices of consumers.

You act like a victim when you do not have to be one. I dont really care that you dont get how much power you have and thus do not choose to use it. Your pursuit of happiness does not extend to limiting other people's happiness.

You will get it when you start your own business or hit about 40 years old...
 
M

mastercheetos

Member
NLXSK1 said:
You dont get it.

I have control over all businesses in the free marketplace. That control is driven by my decisions to buy their goods or services or not buy their goods or services.
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You have a nominal amount of control that is almost non existent. You are one pawn in the system. Your decision has almost no impact whatsoever on the economy b/c you are one out of millions. Your decision not to buy from a company will not change anything.
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
NLXSK1 said:
You dont get it.

I have control over all businesses in the free marketplace. That control is driven by my decisions to buy their goods or services or not buy their goods or services.

If a greedy asshole tries to manipulate the system, then a bunch of greedy assholes will jump on the bandwagon and competition will reduce the price of that good or service to a level that can be supported by it's customer base. It is automatic, driven by the individual choices of consumers.

...
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The sad part is that you actually believe it.


I read an article about a series of large lenders, citibank and BofA. They were caught forclosing on houses they couldn't prove they owned, they were caught having signatures forged. The buyers and home owners didn't KNOW about it - but you in your wise world would have.

The banks were ordered to pay large amounts of money back across the board to their customers. So what they did is to forgive debts - except that the debts they forgave had already been discharged by bankruptcy. Now those people who lost their homes, lost their credit are going to have trouble with the IRS - and the banks managed to pay nothing.

But you actually believe that consumers have this ultimate power becuase they can simply go elsewhere.
 
B

beenthere

New Member
mastercheetos said:
You have a nominal amount of control that is almost non existent. You are one pawn in the system. Your decision has almost no impact whatsoever on the economy b/c you are one out of millions. Your decision not to buy from a company will not change anything.
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He's using "I'' as a metaphor, I means the consumer, we all regulate the free market when we choose products and services by price, quality or customer service.

The next time you find yourself shopping on the internet for products looking for the best price, you are part of the free market control.
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
beenthere said:
He's using "I'' as a metaphor, I means the consumer, we all regulate the free market when we choose products and services by price, quality or customer service.

The next time you find yourself shopping on the internet for products looking for the best price, you are part of the free market control.
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Aren't you the same folks who are for tort reform?
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
beenthere said:
As a matter of fact, YES!
And aren't you against it?
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So you believe that a "free" market will always right wrongs and fix abuse - except that you don't really want a market free from regulation because you want to regulate lawyers - you know, the ones that tend to keep large corporations honest. What you actually want if for corporations to be able to do absolutely as they please with no accountability and no oversight and no punishment for their missbehavior.

If a drug or medical device is found to be defective - the guy with the failed artificial heart valve can just find another vendor - right?
 
M

mastercheetos

Member
beenthere said:
He's using "I'' as a metaphor, I means the consumer, we all regulate the free market when we choose products and services by price, quality or customer service.

The next time you find yourself shopping on the internet for products looking for the best price, you are part of the free market control.
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I'm not so sure he was. He went on to say you don't realize how much power you have, which makes me think he's referring to people as individuals.

But anyways, my point is even if we as a society supposedly can regulate the free market by our decisions to buy certain products, one individual can't change anything. So even if I decide not to buy certain products b/c I don't like how much the upper level employees are making, I can't change anything b/c my decision not to buy has no real impact due to the fact that there are millions of other consumers that will do whatever they want.

Furthermore, even if everyone in society did only attempt to buy products/services from businesses that they felt were fairly run (i.e. the business owners weren't being over paid and exploiting employees), most of the time no matter what company you buy from, the leaders of that company will be exploiting the common man. There are no good options, no matter what company you choose, it will be run by someone fucking over everyone else. And it is impractical to expect every consumer to look into these issues before they buy anything. You would be wasting so much time.

Why not just have the gov't impose a cap so the problem would be eliminated. I think it makes more sense for the gov't to create law that prevents rich people from exploiting everyone else, rather then relying on society as a whole to go to great lengths in an attempt (that will probably fail) to stop the rich from exploiting everyone.
 
M

mastercheetos

Member
canndo said:
So you believe that a "free" market will always right wrongs and fix abuse - except that you don't really want a market free from regulation because you want to regulate lawyers - you know, the ones that tend to keep large corporations honest. What you actually want if for corporations to be able to do absolutely as they please with no accountability and no oversight and no punishment for their missbehavior.

If a drug or medical device is found to be defective - the guy with the failed artificial heart valve can just find another vendor - right?
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Lol, he is being so hypocritical.
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
NLXSK1 said:
If a greedy asshole tries to manipulate the system, then a bunch of greedy assholes will jump on the bandwagon and competition will reduce the price of that good or service to a level that can be supported by it's customer base. It is automatic, driven by the individual choices of consumers.

You act like a victim when you do not have to be one. I dont really care that you dont get how much power you have and thus do not choose to use it. Your pursuit of happiness does not extend to limiting other people's happiness.

You will get it when you start your own business or hit about 40 years old...
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Shall we continue on with the Pinto and Ford's decision to carry on with the faulty gas tank because it was cheaper? Roasting their customers alive?
 
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