STAY AWAY FROM LED's!!!!!

puffenuff said:

You're not as open minded as you lead people to believe. Now I remember why I stopped participating in this conversation.

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I'd rather not get into a pissing contest with you. If being "open minded" means I have to purchase and try every LED out there before I can claim that I'm not quite ready to switch, well, I'm sad to say, I cannot afford to be "open minded". What exactly is it that I'm being closed minded about? It's not a rhetorical question. If I somehow came across as being locked in my ways, I want to know. That's not the grower I strive to be. Shit, man, I have 2 lights in my bloom room dedicated to trying new nutrients and mediums. After 20+ years of growing I still want to try new things out.

Until I see with my own eyes proof that there's an LED out there that can match 1000 watt HPS's, I'm sticking to my opinion that LED tech isn't there yet. I'm also standing by my statement that when LED gets there, we will all know it. The LED lovers won't have to quote PAR values and spectrum analysis. They will just start posting links of monster grows lit by the new LED Master Blaster Bud Bomber. Much like all the monster grows posted right now lit by shitty old HPS's.

We have the same amount of growing years experience...

I use LEDs, like them a lot, and I can understand what you're saying. And I believe there is not 1 LED panel out there that will match a 1000 watt HPS. There are however plenty out there where 2 or 3 LED panels totaling together 1000 watts in LED, will match 1000 watts of HPS.

collective gardener said:

I'd rather not get into a pissing contest with you. If being "open minded" means I have to purchase and try every LED out there before I can claim that I'm not quite ready to switch, well, I'm sad to say, I cannot afford to be "open minded". What exactly is it that I'm being closed minded about? It's not a rhetorical question. If I somehow came across as being locked in my ways, I want to know. That's not the grower I strive to be. Shit, man, I have 2 lights in my bloom room dedicated to trying new nutrients and mediums. After 20+ years of growing I still want to try new things out.

Until I see with my own eyes proof that there's an LED out there that can match 1000 watt HPS's, I'm sticking to my opinion that LED tech isn't there yet. I'm also standing by my statement that when LED gets there, we will all know it. The LED lovers won't have to quote PAR values and spectrum analysis. They will just start posting links of monster grows lit by the new LED Master Blaster Bud Bomber. Much like all the monster grows posted right now lit by shitty old HPS's.

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Here's how I saw it as a new grower.

LED's were basically expensive and seemed to be just experimental, not many people were shouting success a lot of people arguing like this.

So HID and the other 'hot lights' means lots of ventilation and heat more problems and a more complicated room, daunting really.

CFL/T5 makes sense, lights you see everywhere so you know they work and are reliable. Low heat so less ventilation. Great for a starter I figured.

But from what I've read around it seems to be Serious growers that want it to work right use HID's
Smaller grows seem to be done with CFL's and T5's and staelthy ones.
LED's seem to be for the people who want to try out what is a new technology riddled with problems, but maybe in another 10 years we will all be using them.

WeedChip said:

Here's how I saw it as a new grower.

LED's were basically expensive and seemed to be just experimental, not many people were shouting success a lot of people arguing like this.

So HID and the other 'hot lights' means lots of ventilation and heat more problems and a more complicated room, daunting really.

CFL/T5 makes sense, lights you see everywhere so you know they work and are reliable. Low heat so less ventilation. Great for a starter I figured.

But from what I've read around it seems to be Serious growers that want it to work right use HID's
Smaller grows seem to be done with CFL's and T5's and staelthy ones.
LED's seem to be for the people who want to try out what is a new technology riddled with problems, but maybe in another 10 years we will all be using them.

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That's a very nice summary. The only point just slightly of target is HID being "daunting". When I started growing HID was the only option. When you purchased a set of lights, you also purchased an exhaust fan. That's about it for how dunting they are. I have seen some lovely and highly productive bedroom grows using 4 - 600 watt HPS's in very large air cooled reflectors, being cooled by one 8" inline fan. A single portable air conditioner, or a window unit, took care of the rest of the cooliing. Add another 8" inline fan and carbon filter (really needed in any light style grow) and you're lighting, odor control, and cooling is complete. It's also a settup that can easily produce 4+ pounds every 8 weeks.

These are great settups for beginners and experts alike. It's the exact settup I've installed in several people's bedrooms and converted garages. It is NOT daunting. It is very productive. The total cost for lighting, venting, and cooling is under $3,000. And, that's using name brand ballasts, reflectors, and bulbs. Let's say $5,000 with all the other growing stuff needed and a bunch of clones to get started. How much are you getting for 4lbs?

collective gardener said:

How much are you getting for 4lbs?

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11,520 Nice double money.

However my CFL grow only cost me 100 to set up and has given me 3oz (180 per oz here) and that was my first little attempt, so for my smaller grow there was a larger 'profit' (saved me on smoke) margin.

Looking back I am sure if I had gone down the HID road it would of been just as easy, I thought it would be much harder to grow and set up this lot.

collective gardener said:

That's a very nice summary. The only point just slightly of target is HID being "daunting". When I started growing HID was the only option. When you purchased a set of lights, you also purchased an exhaust fan. That's about it for how dunting they are. I have seen some lovely and highly productive bedroom grows using 4 - 600 watt HPS's in very large air cooled reflectors, being cooled by one 8" inline fan. A single portable air conditioner, or a window unit, took care of the rest of the cooliing. Add another 8" inline fan and carbon filter (really needed in any light style grow) and you're lighting, odor control, and cooling is complete. It's also a settup that can easily produce 4+ pounds every 8 weeks.

These are great settups for beginners and experts alike. It's the exact settup I've installed in several people's bedrooms and converted garages. It is NOT daunting. It is very productive. The total cost for lighting, venting, and cooling is under $3,000. And, that's using name brand ballasts, reflectors, and bulbs. Let's say $5,000 with all the other growing stuff needed and a bunch of clones to get started. How much are you getting for 4lbs?

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yo collective is your 8 week harvest due to a perpetual grow or you running a fast maturing strain?

curly604 said:

yo collective is your 8 week harvest due to a perpetual grow or you running a fast maturing strain?

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I should have added that these settups require a small veg room. Usually, a large closet will due just fine. It would be silly to settup 4 HID's without a veg room, too. If room was an issue, take it down to 3 HPS's and add a veg room in a tent.

My current grow is a perpetual. We run 3 - 8x8 trays in bloom 20 days apart. Each tray is lit by 4 - 1000 watt HPS's with Digilux bulbs. I also run 2 - 3x3 trays, each lit by a 600 for testing. I just found 2 - 600 watt Phantom ballasts new in the box that I had forgot about! So, as of tomorrow, I'll be running 4 - 3x3 test trays. These keep the growing fun for me. I can maintain good production with the 3 big trays with known strains and growing methods. Then, I can play with new strains, nutrients, bulbs, canopy shape, plant density, and mediums (if any) in the 4 testing trays. These are my play trays. I haven't ran any aeroponics or NFT grows in a while and am considering these methods in the new little trays. I may be testing the possibility of developing a microherd in rockwool blocks to see if I can run a live soil organic grow in rockwool.

When I discover an LED that seems like it may work for me, I will put it over one 3x3 tray and test it against a 600 HPS on another tray. All other factors will be the same. This would be a very preliminary test, as the ultimate goal is to be able to replace the 12 - 1000 watt HPS's over the 3 big trays. But, it will give me a good idea of what the light can do under real world conditions. When I finally do this, I promise to fully document the test in real time on the thread in my sig.

If I were in your shoes, with 20'000 watts (I assume for just flowering), this is just me though... Bear with me though...

With all due respect first of all...

I'd be looking for ways for a better efficiency a little here and there, I've seen plenty of "big commercial" growers admit already that LED watt for watt competes with HPS, but "only if grown a certain way, and on a smaller scale", ie, sog or scrog, there I agree, myself though, YOU say you get how many grams per watt of flowering power? And how many watts of veg power and at how many weeks? Why can't you adapt after testing, and do scrog with LED, and get that 0.9 gpw+ with no ac?

I get 0.7 grams-0.9 grams per watt with just flowering watts, and per every 100 watts I use for flowering, I use 10-15 in veg, and only veg for 2-3 weeks. AND I get 0.7-0.9 grams per watt from flowering, OF GOOD USABLE SMOKEABLE GRADE A POT.

If you can get that (which is no surprise, many LED growers are getting that, I'm no guru), why not take that 3 x 3 - 4 x 4 garden that LEDs excel in, and put multiple 3 x 3 - 4 x 4s together and get that 0.9 grams per watt, with no extra air conditioning!?

If you're truly growing 20000 watts worth of pot, I am sure you can afford a $700 LED, and a small corner of a growing area with 6-8 clones and some coco or whatever you grow in, a drop in the bucket compared to the $1000s you're spending on your 20000 watt grow. Then you will see first hand if LEDs work, or not, and you can make an educated opinion on LEDs, and if you would use them after your first couple tests.

At 20000 watts, and $1000 per pound (per se), and just 0.5 grams per watt, that is still 6 figures per year, clearly enough to try out a $700 LED and a small corner somewhere, try it out for a couple grows and decide first hand if it is something worth using or not... You have what, "20 years experience growing"? I started growing in 1992, I try things first hand before letting peoples lack of experience opinions dictate how much I spend every month on my garden.

Come on CG... I respect your growing experience, but your decisions for moving forward are sketchy at best.

collective gardener said:

I should have added that these settups require a small veg room. Usually, a large closet will due just fine. It would be silly to settup 4 HID's without a veg room, too. If room was an issue, take it down to 3 HPS's and add a veg room in a tent.

My current grow is a perpetual. We run 3 - 8x8 trays in bloom 20 days apart. Each tray is lit by 4 - 1000 watt HPS's with Digilux bulbs. I also run 2 - 3x3 trays, each lit by a 600 for testing. I just found 2 - 600 watt Phantom ballasts new in the box that I had forgot about! So, as of tomorrow, I'll be running 4 - 3x3 test trays. These keep the growing fun for me. I can maintain good production with the 3 big trays with known strains and growing methods. Then, I can play with new strains, nutrients, bulbs, canopy shape, plant density, and mediums (if any) in the 4 testing trays. These are my play trays. I haven't ran any aeroponics or NFT grows in a while and am considering these methods in the new little trays. I may be testing the possibility of developing a microherd in rockwool blocks to see if I can run a live soil organic grow in rockwool.

When I discover an LED that seems like it may work for me, I will put it over one 3x3 tray and test it against a 600 HPS on another tray. All other factors will be the same. This would be a very preliminary test, as the ultimate goal is to be able to replace the 12 - 1000 watt HPS's over the 3 big trays. But, it will give me a good idea of what the light can do under real world conditions. When I finally do this, I promise to fully document the test in real time on the thread in my sig.

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El Superbeasto said:

If I were in your shoes, with 20'000 watts (I assume for just flowering), this is just me though... Bear with me though...

With all due respect first of all...

I'd be looking for ways for a better efficiency a little here and there, I've seen plenty of "big commercial" growers admit already that LED watt for watt competes with HPS, but "only if grown a certain way, and on a smaller scale", ie, sog or scrog, there I agree, myself though, YOU say you get how many grams per watt of flowering power? And how many watts of veg power and at how many weeks? Why can't you adapt after testing, and do scrog with LED, and get that 0.9 gpw+ with no ac?

I get 0.7 grams-0.9 grams per watt with just flowering watts, and per every 100 watts I use for flowering, I use 10-15 in veg, and only veg for 2-3 weeks. AND I get 0.7-0.9 grams per watt from flowering, OF GOOD USABLE SMOKEABLE GRADE A POT.

If you can get that (which is no surprise, many LED growers are getting that, I'm no guru), why not take that 3 x 3 - 4 x 4 garden that LEDs excel in, and put multiple 3 x 3 - 4 x 4s together and get that 0.9 grams per watt, with no extra air conditioning!?

If you're truly growing 20000 watts worth of pot, I am sure you can afford a $700 LED, and a small corner of a growing area with 6-8 clones and some coco or whatever you grow in, a drop in the bucket compared to the $1000s you're spending on your 20000 watt grow. Then you will see first hand if LEDs work, or not, and you can make an educated opinion on LEDs, and if you would use them after your first couple tests.

At 20000 watts, and $1000 per pound (per se), and just 0.5 grams per watt, that is still 6 figures per year, clearly enough to try out a $700 LED and a small corner somewhere, try it out for a couple grows and decide first hand if it is something worth using or not... You have what, "20 years experience growing"? I started growing in 1992, I try things first hand before letting peoples lack of experience opinions dictate how much I spend every month on my garden.

Come on CG... I respect your growing experience, but your decisions for moving forward are sketchy at best.

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My "decisions for moving forward are sketchy at best?" I have no idea what that means. But, you need to understand that sitting on the sidelines and telling someone how to run a grow of my size is alot easier than doing it. I would like you to please look at the thread in my sig. There are PLENTY of pics. This way you can find out with your own eyes if I'm "truly growing with 20,000 watts".

20K is total wattage. I have a large veg room because when we first started we had a limitted amount of patients and had to grow trees which needed some major veg time and space.
I have no doubt that LED can probably match HID watt for watt if grown in a manner efficient for LED's. I have stated on prior posts that, having done the math, it is not worth the initial LED purchase price if the only savings is A/C and bulbs. For me, there must be some direct lighting energy savings to justify the purchase price. It's all just math.

I don't know what you dissagree with. I think I stated pretty clearly in my last post that I intended on testing an LED or 2 in my new test trays just like you are suggesting. Was I not clear on that?

$1,000 per pound? I would eat a bullet. I hope to god it never comes to that. The Bubba gets $3,000 to $3,200. The Tahoe x Chemdog gets $3,600 to $4,000. Irinically, even at 4K for the Tahoe, we do much better with the Bubba at 3K. Those ultra top end elite genetics sometimes are shit yielders. We keep on growing it, though. The stuff is just too good not to. So, capitol is really not a problem. Plus, the collective has a line of credit set up by a wealthy member. If and when the numbers make sense, we will switch lighting. $$$ is not a problem. As far as a light to test, I'm in no hurry to make a decision. The Solar Storm by California LightWorks looks nice. Truthfully, I am simply waiting for one or 2 of the new higher wattage lights to emerge as a front runner. You say $700? I'm thinking closer to $2,000. What $700 LED are you talking about? The lights I've seen that have a snowballs chance in hell of competing with my current lighting are all $1,500+ per light.

Don't forget plant count in you calculations about how I should run my grow. We can only have X amount of plants.

Stay away from LEDSS??????????????? WHY?????? just because "somebody" bought some crappy LED lamp that doesn't have a name or any reference at all, you go ahead and take a painful dump on the whole technology???? why not spread good advice, like stay away from crack. sheeesh

agesbuds said:

I had 8 LED pannels in my 4 by 4 tent and they didnt do their job. Super slow growth. Switched to T5"s like 3 weeks ago and now my plants grow close to 3 inches a week vs the 1'' for the first 3 weeks!!! THEY are JUNK imho. Sorry my fellow LED growers, but this was in mt experiance

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600 watts. 300 leds @ 2 watts each.

above is a very good lamp...
did you use a crappy UFO like this next one? yes, IMO they are too shitty to consider for growing marijuana, but china knows how to sell crap, and lots of people buy UFOs because they are wayyyyyy cheaper than blackstar.

some 3 watt blue diodes will emit about 20 lumens max each, so even then, to reach to the 100,000 lumen range is unfortunately not possible, and it's the buyer's responsibility to check out the lumens rating before they throw away their money

ChronicObsession said:

some 3 watt blue diodes will emit about 20 lumens max each, so even then, to reach to the 100,000 lumen range is unfortunately not possible, and it's the buyer's responsibility to check out the lumens rating before they throw away their money

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First off, dig your avatar. Reminds me how cool it is to be an American these days.

I agree on your take on the shitty LED's. Much of the discourse between growers on the LED debate should be blamed on the producers of cheap LED's who made far out claims about what they can do. Unfortunately, many people believe everything they read, and the LED literature puts forth a very compelling argument of how a 90 watt UFO can compete with a 400 watt HPS. On paper it all looked so good. I've been noticing that the guys on here that seem to be the best informed on LED technology lean toward the larger lights. They are also very realistic about how many watts of LED it takes to compete with, say, a 600 watt HPS. Alot of the older claims were stating that a couple hundred watts of LED would outperform a 600 watt HPS. The guys that seem to really know LED are saying it would be closr to 400-500 watts of LED to compete with a 600 watt HPS. These are figures that make sense to me. I don't think that such a small energy savings justifies the current cost. BUT, we all know that prices will soon come way down. Once a couple companies start cranking out some big ass panels that people will go out and buy in quantity, prices will start coming down. Anyone here remember how much microwaves were when they first came out?

Got this over at ledgrowlights.com

Comparing Lumens
Comparing lumens from LED grow lights with that for HID lights is not a valid comparison for gauging plant growth potential. A lumen is a measurement of light that is based on the sensitivity of the human eye. This means that the for same amount of light energy, green light will measure about 10 times the lumens of the blue or red light. Since plants use mostly blue and red light, lumens are not really an appropriate index of plant growing efficiency. We gauge the effectiveness of our lights on actual plant growth.


I think they are confusing PAR for lumens... Par for people, lumens for plants.

Has anyone done a side by side HID/LED test yet?

hows this for comparison planted 3" clones on sept 11th vegged 23 days plants goin into flowe 43" tall thats 3" to 43" in 23 days and bin in flower now 11 days vegged 5000 watts flowering 8000 watts useing hordilux superblue MH and HPS in one bulb plants are approx 48 - 50" tall now total cost of lighting 3500.00
theres 90 plants there

how much would it cost to make 8000 watts of LED

I got this 180 led jumbo from Prosource thru an 90 days trial. So far grown a foot within 2 1/2 weeks. This last week, growth was the fastest tho. No heat, still do not know the electrical bill increase yet. AND, I had to send back the first unit as the 4rd quarter switch just flashes. SO, I used it the first week of grow till the replacement show up. And send it back. SO, it was basically was at 135 watts of leds for the first week. This is in a 4 x 4 x 8 zip closet doing a 4 clone plants scrog at 10" from medium and already started training the last 4 -5 days. These jumbo units have 4 switches, one for each quarter to turn on or off. The reason for this is so we can cut down the spectrums needed for clones growth etc.Oh, first grow here, and hydro. So far, I'm happy. Not finished yet tho...

i will back up what the Dr. said a couple or so posts back. in addition, good LED lamps that run 600W as they claim by using 300 leds at 2 watts each, are difficult to build. I mean, it takes good engineering, and unfortunately that means more money. I have been around philips leds for the home and they make full spectrum. I have a led lamp that has 10 watts and apparently there is a heat dissapattor of such pathetic mass that I had no idea until I opened it and found a little cooler fan inside and the tiny heatsink was a round disk with heat fins in aerodynamic pattern. I was impressed. However big lamps need the same, an active cooling job, like a CPU of a computer. LEDs WILL DIE if allowed to thermally runaway past the limit of say.... 212 degrees fahrenheit, and sometimes less than that. Not very hot incomparison to the HID bulb, which will sizzle your finger like a sausage on the grill. Now so there is a lot of shit on the market, and that depends on the price and what not. Good LED arrays aren't cheap. LEDS are for people like me that want a lamp that has zero maintenance (no bulb changes), and low, very low heat in comparison to a 600 watt HID. LED lamps, if built properly, using the latest chips of 3 watts, can make nearly 200 lumens per chip if they are 6000k chips, they appear pure white like a metal halide. I would like to build my own lamp using this tech. because 1 one hundred watt chip is more expensive than 40 three watt chips. Let you know if I do it.

what i mentioned above led are mercury free meaning no ultravoilet light when looking at life in general The SUN not only does it give off ultravoilet light it also gives of radiation
one would think if your goin to produce lighting that is like the sun for instance a 1000 watt HPS = pretty much same lumens the sun produces on any given day obviously lacking other stuff the sun produces

i am not a hater of LED but find it useless for the needs of indoor growers what most growers want is fast growth and big yields
don;t get me wrong in time LED will be up there but also dont ever count out MH or HPS there also spending vast amounts of money to produce a better product
its bin said that LED do fairly good in veg but are week in flowering
so why bother really with it when for half the price you can put up a hps and grow both ends of the spectrum and win win

/facepalm....