Step into my grow room

speedyganga said:

I like your pas de problème, I am myself from this country.
I hesitate a lot, espec' because of your warning about the high voltage circuit. I electrise myself few month ago on the 220V wiring a hps ballast and went to hospital. (my bro put the whole house on while I shut it down, he didn't know I was wiring the ballast for the cab...)
Nothing too bad and I will continue playing with electricity but still I know how does it fill to have your heart doing strange stuff.
Now, I could for the same price either go for 14 vero 10 on a meanwell HGL- which is 400V and 500mA or I could use 6 vero 18 on a HG- giving 1050mA and 190V. 190V is obviously safer but can still be lethal isn't it?
The cooling of the vero18 will be more expensive I think as it involve big heatsink or watercooling/ ventirads. (at least 80euros). The cooling of the vero 10 would cost me two dissipator like the one you saw (35euros max). I would put my exhaust next to the dissipator and my fan recirculating the air should do the job for lowering the Tj.
But Is their a way to keep this safe ? I mean isolating with a resin the connection, linking the heatsink to the ground etc... I don't really know how can I get this really safe.

Sorry to hijack your journal mon ami

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You got very lucky with your 220v accident!.................just like your team's first round group in the world cup



very clean grow room mr flux.........just the way I like it

Speedy I'm glad you're alive to tell it. I did a lot of stupid/dangerous things myself and have a healthy dose of respect for the 230 VAC mains power.

I wonder too when DC voltage really becomes dangerous. I touched 143V with dry fingers and felt absolutely nothing. So 143V is 'safe' for me, for someone with a heart condition it may be different. Would 190V be 'safe' to touch? I don't know. 400V? No way. For me it was not worth the peace of mind. I think it could only be used safely inside a self contained well isolated box-type of grow light.

Have you considered this option: 143V, 1400mA driver with 20 vero10's (10 per heatsink). Wired as 4 parallel strings of each 5 vero's. This is almost what I'm using. It takes a bit more vero's, but this will spread the heat and the light and since they run softer the efficiency goes up. Plus, the vero10 dropped in price yet again and is now only 3.90 euro at digikey.

speedyganga said:

I like your pas de problème, I am myself from this country.
I hesitate a lot, espec' because of your warning about the high voltage circuit. I electrise myself few month ago on the 220V wiring a hps ballast and went to hospital. (my bro put the whole house on while I shut it down, he didn't know I was wiring the ballast for the cab...)
Nothing too bad and I will continue playing with electricity but still I know how does it fill to have your heart doing strange stuff.
Now, I could for the same price either go for 14 vero 10 on a meanwell HGL- which is 400V and 500mA or I could use 6 vero 18 on a HG- giving 1050mA and 190V. 190V is obviously safer but can still be lethal isn't it?
The cooling of the vero18 will be more expensive I think as it involve big heatsink or watercooling/ ventirads. (at least 80euros). The cooling of the vero 10 would cost me two dissipator like the one you saw (35euros max). I would put my exhaust next to the dissipator and my fan recirculating the air should do the job for lowering the Tj.
But Is their a way to keep this safe ? I mean isolating with a resin the connection, linking the heatsink to the ground etc... I don't really know how can I get this really safe.

Sorry to hijack your journal mon ami

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Yes I saw how cheap the vero 10 get... I don't mind putting 10more actually. more power = more bud
But I try to find a good compromise and the costly part is the alimentation...

Yes I might end up having them in parallel but it is not ideal. I am not scared to lose led because I know that even if a string is shut down (one of the led die) the other will still be able to handle the amount of current flowing.
But How can you properly regulate the voltage in your strings? you said you were binning the leds and placing them so that the voltage is the closest possible in each string. But after some functioning, the led voltage Vf will change and differently for each led. This would mean you should do the binning again after about 300hours of use.

What happens if a led undergo a bit more voltage than it's suppose to have? I don't know, does it lower the longevity ?
maybe a good way to power them would be to use meanwell LDD rectifiers.

Regarding the current: after checking, 48V is the limit for a letal Dc current. But this means nothing. Each person is different. What is important in current is the frequency (60hz in our case => dangerous) and the Impedance your body has. Unfortunately everyone is different so no one can really know.
To die from current you not only have to be connected to it but also be attached to the ground. That is why bird stays on cables...
This is what I found:
after 250mA 99,5% of fibrillation chance and after 4-5A well...
Generally average impedance is 1000ohms and can be much higher for big guys and lower for skinny boys. Man one is also higher generally. So let say you had 140V passing trough your body it makes 140mA if you are on the average. This is large enough to cause fibrillation. You said you fell nothing so it means the current was under 1mA. and it would give you an impedance of 140 000 ohms... can't believe it. In your case I think you were not connected to the ground. The current enters but doesn't exit. Tell me if this is totally wrong but It's what I understood.

I though it was important to remind everyone that current was dangerous. Thank you telling us often Mr flux.

speedyganga said:

lBut after some functioning, the led voltage Vf will change and differently for each led. This would mean you
should do the binning again after about 300hours of use.

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I have never checked how Vf evolves over time. It's not so bad if there are some slight mismatches though, it just means that one string will run a little bit harder than the other. This happens inside COBs too; the individual dies are wired in parallel strings as well.

What happens if a led undergo a bit more voltage than it's suppose to have? I don't know, does it lower the longevity ?

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As long as the current is OK then the LED will run at its own corresponding Vf.

This is what I found:
after 250mA 99,5% of fibrillation chance and after 4-5A well...
Generally average impedance is 1000ohms and can be much higher for big guys and lower for skinny boys. Man one is also higher generally. So let say you had 140V passing trough your body it makes 140mA if you are on the average. This is large enough to cause fibrillation. You said you fell nothing so it means the current was under 1mA. and it would give you an impedance of 140 000 ohms... can't believe it. In your case I think you were not connected to the ground. The current enters but doesn't exit. Tell me if this is totally wrong but It's what I understood.

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That is some good info. The 1000 Ohm is the internal resistance of the body; The skin resistance should be added and can be 100,000 Ohm for dry skin. You are right that I was not grounded, I only wanted current flowing between some fingers on the same hand, not across my chest area Likewise did I NOT touch + with left hand and - with right for example. That would be dangerous.

MrFlux said:

That is some good info. The 1000 Ohm is the internal resistance of the body; The skin resistance should be added and can be 100,000 Ohm for dry skin. You are right that I was not grounded, I only wanted current flowing between some fingers on the same hand, not across my chest area Likewise did I NOT touch + with left hand and - with right for example. That would be dangerous.

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Ok then numbers make sense, if the skin is 100 000ohm.

You gave me a great amount of very good information... I am set. It will be HGL in 1400mA and 4 vero 10 per string.
I think you gave here the recipe for one of the cheapest way to light a room with very good quality components and high efficiency.

I keep a close eye on your grow. especially because I love when it goes perpetual we see the continuous improvement of the grower

Incredible! I was thinking of doing led instead of hps to do something quieter and stealthier and this is awesome! How much did the whole thing cost to make?

It also helps to unplug the device you are working on. I've electrocuted myself a few times at 120V just from being a moron.

If you think it might be on, make sure you're wearing shoes with thick rubber soles so you're floating.

Unless what you're touching is an open circuit, you will likely not get the brunt of the current. Instead, you form a current divider with the load.

That means if the load is collectively 50ohm, and you are 1000ohm, unless you are connected directly to the mains (low output impedance), most of the current will want to flow through the load. That means if your source is rated for 1400mA, the voltage will drop if current draw gets too high (because the power supply has a higher output impedance than the mains), and it will break a fuse, a breaker. (edit: I may have just said something stupid considering it only takes 200mA to kill you, and that's nothing in terms of overloading that power supply)

speedyganga said:

You gave me a great amount of very good information... I am set. It will be HGL in 1400mA and 4 vero 10 per string.
I think you gave here the recipe for one of the cheapest way to light a room with very good quality components and high efficiency.

Click to expand...

OK that's great to hear. Good luck and enjoy the build!

Nb217 said:

Incredible! I was thinking of doing led instead of hps to do something quieter and stealthier and this is awesome! How much did the whole thing cost to make?

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The initial budget was 500 euro (this was including pots, seeds, nutes etc). Since then a lot has been upgraded, not only the light but also the ventilation. I've never added it all up but it's a lot. It could have been a lot cheaper if I had known exactly what to build and what components to use.

What it would cost to make a 212 Watt T-light design is easier to answer:

1. 20 Vero 10's: 95 euro
2. Mean Well HLG-H185C-1400A: 72 euro (incl. shipping)
3. Aluminium T-channel, 4x 1m: 20 euro
4. Solder, wires, silicone glue, tie rips: 20 euro
5. 30V LED driver for binning: 5 euro

Total cost: 212 euro for 212 Watt. This is with 21% sales tax included. Ventilation is not included, but a couple of PC fans do the job very well. Optionally 5 or 6 strings can be used (like I do) to get better spread and efficiency.

churchhaze said:

That means if the load is collectively 50ohm, and you are 1000ohm, unless you are connected directly to the mains (low output impedance), most of the current will want to flow through the load. That means if your source is rated for 1400mA, the voltage will drop if current draw gets too high (because the power supply has a higher output impedance than the mains), and it will break a fuse, a breaker. (edit: I may have just said something stupid considering it only takes 200mA to kill you, and that's nothing in terms of overloading that power supply)

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If I understood you correctly then what can save you in this case is a ground fault interrupter. Under no circumstance is there any current supposed to flow to the ground; The interrupter can detect even a few mA of current gone "missing" and then shut everything off. Where I live this is mandatory, with a ground leakage trigger of at most 30mA.

MrFlux said:

If I understood you correctly then what can save you in this case is a ground fault interrupter. Under no circumstance is there any current supposed to flow to the ground; The interrupter can detect even a few mA of current gone "missing" and then shut everything off. Where I live this is mandatory, with a ground leakage trigger of at most 30mA.

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Yes were I live too, 15mA even I think. But They changed it in france due to european norm so it is new in my country and specific to europe I guess. That is what save me... You better check you have this.

MrFlux said:

What it would cost to make a 212 Watt T-light design is easier to answer:

1. 20 Vero 10's: 95 euro
2. Mean Well HLG-H185C-1400A: 72 euro (incl. shipping)
3. Aluminium T-channel, 4x 1m: 20 euro
4. Solder, wires, silicone glue, tie rips: 20 euro
5. 30V LED driver for binning: 5 euro

Total cost: 212 euro for 212 Watt. This is with 21% sales tax included. Ventilation is not included, but a couple of PC fans do the job very well. Optionally 5 or 6 strings can be used (like I do) to get better spread and efficiency.

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That is exactly the set up I will have. But a few remarks your dissipation case is very peculiar... If buying a common heatsink the cost goes 40euros higher at the very least.
And I didn't find the hgl at this price, where do you buy it ? mouser sell it at 90euro shipped.

Bye

speedyganga said:

Yes were I live too, 15mA even I think. But They changed it in france due to european norm so it is new in my country and specific to europe I guess. That is what save me... You better check you have this.

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^^^ This

That is exactly the set up I will have. But a few remarks your dissipation case is very peculiar... If buying a common heatsink the cost goes 40euros higher at the very least.
And I didn't find the hgl at this price, where do you buy it ? mouser sell it at 90euro shipped.

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The extrusion profile you showed here is less than 10 euro per meter, looks like a very good deal.

The Mean Well driver I got from here. As a small tip in advance: Turn the driver all the way down when trying everything out for the first time, in case some strings are not properly connected.

Very nice... thank you for the link.
Yes I will buy this exact heatsink, and will come back to give my feedback on them. Overall I think I will pay 260euros for a about 240W (I add oslon ssl hyper red on each string to go up to 140V per string...)
I think I will have 4 of them, one for each string. My led should be cooled down properly even without any ventilation.
In the future I plan of having five string like you. Easy and modular set up
By the way I think everyone will want to see some more led bud

Did i just read a whole page on how to electricute yourself properly?
Jk
Good information. Seems like more info is coming out on safety!

speedyganga said:

Very nice... thank you for the link.
Yes I will buy this exact heatsink, and will come back to give my feedback on them. Overall I think I will pay 260euros for a about 240W (I add oslon ssl hyper red on each string to go up to 140V per string...)
I think I will have 4 of them, one for each string. My led should be cooled down properly even without any ventilation.
In the future I plan of having five string like you. Easy and modular set up

Click to expand...

With just 5 vero's per heatsink the passive cooling will be pretty good. The oslons are always very nice of course, but it's not needed to max out the Mean Well driver. What you don't use in voltage is given back to you in amperage, up to a point. For example if you use 130V, then the driver can provide a current of 200W/130V = 1.54A. In other words you still get the full 200W. I don't think this is documented in the Mean Well specs.

By the way I think everyone will want to see some more led bud

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Have some ICE if you like

The rest of the buds is still drying but it looks like the second harvest will be massive.

Thanks mr Flux,

I didn't know the driver would react like this... so at max, whatever my voltage I will get 200W of white.
I will still add some hyper red but then on another driver. I have already seen what this little hyper red bring in terms of heavy bud. I can tell you I want a few of them to boost my white panel efficiency.

Ice, what do you think of it ? I never tried female seeds but I will for sure for next time. I planned on C99 and lemon kush for now. I already have 1 blue cheese from them waiting to be sprout. Would you recommend any particular strain they have ?

You may be able to touch 143V with dry fingers but if your fingers are wet or maybe even damp with salty sweat then 143V could penetrate the skin and give you a jolt. I think you would still need to be unlucky to get electrocuted. Certainly, the less potential the less likely it is to penetrate the skin and GFCI is a must around HV and water.

speedyganga said:

I didn't know the driver would react like this... so at max, whatever my voltage I will get 200W of white.
I will still add some hyper red but then on another driver. I have already seen what this little hyper red bring in terms of heavy bud. I can tell you I want a few of them to boost my white panel efficiency.

Click to expand...

Yes the little oslons are the ultimate in efficiency. Everybody here keeps telling that deep red gives heavy buds... but for me since going pure white the buds have only gotten heavier (the previous light had about 50W of deep red).

Ice, what do you think of it ? I never tried female seeds but I will for sure for next time. I planned on C99 and lemon kush for now. I already have 1 blue cheese from them waiting to be sprout. Would you recommend any particular strain they have ?

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The pack of ICE was a freebie. It's very potent, gives the typical Indica stone. I only use it before bedtime because it makes me too stupid to even follow a TV series. It smells like chamomile flowers, not at all like the "diesel fuel" from the description.

The Lemon Kush is a landrace indica with a sativa-like effect. I love it.

C99 is probably my favorite, the aroma is impossible to describe but has become so familiar to me. After curing for some months it goes to another level. The effect is energetic, good for sports or creative thinking. At a higher dose it becomes trippy in a most pleasant way.

I have a single Blue Cheese too (freebie, not popped yet), very curious how that goes for you. Don't know the other varieties from Female Seeds. So far I like their seeds a lot, very solid and good value.

speedyganga said:

Thanks mr Flux,

I didn't know the driver would react like this... so at max, whatever my voltage I will get 200W of white.
I will still add some hyper red but then on another driver. I have already seen what this little hyper red bring in terms of heavy bud. I can tell you I want a few of them to boost my white panel efficiency.

Ice, what do you think of it ? I never tried female seeds but I will for sure for next time. I planned on C99 and lemon kush for now. I already have 1 blue cheese from them waiting to be sprout. Would you recommend any particular strain they have ?

Click to expand...

If you really want to add oslon hyper/deep red emitters maybe look at this french company for local availability/quick shipping for you......

http://isled.fr/ they have some of the best top-bin DIY kits on the market IMO.

I know the guy in fact. It is belgium/north france company let say...
Very good led they use, but so damn expensive ! 5,6$ for an oslon bin 3T, I prefer buying one more vero 10 !
Honestly I think he is taking the piss at us, his light cost around 6$/W and you have to mount them, wdf ?
The more annoying is I know the engineers who helped him doing the conception of the MPCB and all, and the price of each module shouldn't be this high. But in france taxes for small companies are so important that they can't even pretend to be competitive.

speedyganga said:

I know the guy in fact. It is belgium/north france company let say...
Very good led they use, but so damn expensive ! 5,6$ for an oslon bin 3T, I prefer buying one more vero 10 !
Honestly I think he is taking the piss at us, his light cost around 6$/W and you have to mount them, wdf ?
The more annoying is I know the engineers who helped him doing the conception of the MPCB and all, and the price of each module shouldn't be this high. But in france taxes for small companies are so important that they can't even pretend to be competitive.

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That's a shame, always wondered why his costs are so high................overgrow the government!

speedyganga said:

I know the guy in fact. It is belgium/north france company let say...
Very good led they use, but so damn expensive ! 5,6$ for an oslon bin 3T, I prefer buying one more vero 10 !
Honestly I think he is taking the piss at us, his light cost around 6$/W and you have to mount them, wdf ?
The more annoying is I know the engineers who helped him doing the conception of the MPCB and all, and the price of each module shouldn't be this high. But in france taxes for small companies are so important that they can't even pretend to be competitive.

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Sames goes for Hellas .
Otherwise , I would had already my own led grow light firm ..LOL!

...
( With only COB using, led grow lights ...He-he! ...)