The BubbleHead Gang

RPsmoke420

RPsmoke420

Active Member
Dystopia said:
I don't doubt the benefits of molasses, especially in soil grows, where the symbiotic bacteria and fungi help with the uptake of nutrients. I'm not as sure of the benefits in hydro, where nutrient uptake isn't so much of a problem and keeping a sterile environment is important.

My main concern in hydro would be the molasses mucking up the system (depending on the system you were using). I'd have to see some more evidence of improvement in HYDRO before I used it. I'm curious, were Jorge's buds grown in soil or hydro?
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I still think the benefits of Molasses are there. Its basically a carbo loader, like Botanicare's Sweet. Same idea, but I am sure the Sweet is much more refined, and better suited for hydro. Not that molasses wont work.

I think molasses would make some problems for NFT growers or other aero style growers with a fine mist/spray. But I do not think 1 TBLSP a gallon will gunk up anything in a DWC bucket. Might cause foaming issues if not properly diluted.

mono saccharides like fructose are far less problematic in hydro I would think. Maybe worth exploring the direction...

I don't know. I am brainstorming here. This is my FIRST hydro grow. Normally I am a full blown dirt bag (hence the love for molasses). I am simply thinking out loud.
 
Dystopia

Dystopia

Active Member
HomeGrownHairy said:
Your pH is too high. Where did you read that 6.8 is okay for pot? Get it 5.5-6.5 (5.8 being purfect). A lower pH helps prevent root rot.:peace:
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I agree that a low ph will help prevent pythium. However, I believe the high ph in this case is BECAUSE of the root rot/bacterial slime/dead organic material in the res. These anaerobic microbes release toxic substances that cause the ph to rise. An uncontrollable rise in ph is a sure sign of nasties/dead organic material in your res in my opinion.

All dropping the ph will do is mask the cause. I'm sure Stumps has probably already tried to lower the ph without success...it will just keep spiking as long as the nasties are present. If he gets rid of the nasties then I'm sure he'll be able to control the ph much better...:peace:
 
Dystopia

Dystopia

Active Member
RPsmoke420 said:
I still think the benefits of Molasses are there. Its basically a carbo loader, like Botanicare's Sweet. Same idea, but I am sure the Sweet is much more refined, and better suited for hydro. Not that molasses wont work.

I think molasses would make some problems for NFT growers or other aero style growers with a fine mist/spray. But I do not think 1 TBLSP a gallon will gunk up anything in a DWC bucket. Might cause foaming issues if not properly diluted.

mono saccharides like fructose are far less problematic in hydro I would think. Maybe worth exploring the direction...

I don't know. I am brainstorming here. This is my FIRST hydro grow. Normally I am a full blown dirt bag (hence the love for molasses). I am simply thinking out loud.
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I agree with everything you say. HOWEVER...the molasses will not only attract beneficial bacteria/fungi, it will also attract the nasty bacteria/fungi. The beneficials thrive in AEROBIC conditions; the nasties thrive in ANAEROBIC conditions. If you were growing in highly aerobic conditions with high DO - i.e. with low water temps - then I would say go for it!

But if you're growing in lower DO/higher temp water conditions then I would NOT recommend it, especially if you were using H2O2 as a preventative measure. The lower DO conditions are more conducive to the nasties growth, and the H2O2 will negate one of the main benefits of molasses.

As far as the plants taking up the sweets and carbs, well the jury is still out for me :mrgreen: :peace:
 
MostlyCrazy

MostlyCrazy

New Member
Well next grow I'm going to use the spongepots that were sent with my Sannie Jack seeds instead of rock wool. You innoculate the spongepot with something they call bacto which contains this:

Ingredienten;

  • Bascillus licheniformis​
  • bacillus megaterium​
  • bacillus poymyxa​
  • bacillus subtilis​
  • bacillus thuringiensis​
  • actinomyceten:Streptomyces griseovirides​
  • Trichoderma harzianum bodemschimmel​
Sannies Bacto also contains:
  • solved humusextract from wich 17% humusacids
  • sugar(dextrose)
  • seaweed-extract(Ascophyllum nodosum)
  • Maltodextrine
  • gist extract
  • Myconate(van klaver)
I've asked them over and over if it will be beneficial in hydro and the answer is always yes. Guess I'll see next grow. Worse that could happen is take one for team and get a definitive answer. I suspect it will help when they are young but when I start heavy nutes the benefits will subside and/or disappear.
 
RPsmoke420

RPsmoke420

Active Member
Dystopia said:
I agree with everything you say. HOWEVER...the molasses will not only attract beneficial bacteria/fungi, it will also attract the nasty bacteria/fungi. The beneficials thrive in AEROBIC conditions; the nasties thrive in ANAEROBIC conditions. If you were growing in highly aerobic conditions with high DO - i.e. with low water temps - then I would say go for it!

But if you're growing in lower DO/higher temp water conditions then I would NOT recommend it, especially if you were using H2O2 as a preventative measure. The lower DO conditions are more conducive to the nasties growth, and the H2O2 will negate one of the main benefits of molasses.

As far as the plants taking up the sweets and carbs, well the jury is still out for me :mrgreen: :peace:
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Hmmm.... Didn't consider DO at all. Guess I was just looking at the pro's ! :lol:

Yes, molasses would not be worth anything if used with h202, but would be more for the home brewer/organic minded grower. I know that many of the "secret" ingredients in organic nutes is the molasses. It does seem to work in soil, as long as you can keep the critters away.

But if your growing in a low DO enviroment anyway, then you already have issues you need to address. You need to get the temps down to allow more oxygen in my opinion, and shouldn't be experimenting heavily yet.

If you have temps in check, then maybe the molasses would be something "extra" you could play with, since I would assume you have most everything else under control/firm understanding.

I didn't want to post the entire article here and clutter this all up, but when you have time, give this post a read. I found it in another forum. he quoted the entire article perfectly it looks like. Its just info on molasses itself. Interesting reading.

http://www.gardenscure.com/420/863151-post14.html

:peace:
 
MostlyCrazy

MostlyCrazy

New Member
I have a question on DO. Do you think max air in the res can compensate for high temps? My grows have been doing really well since I upped the bubbles witha big air pump and my res temps hang in the mid-70's most of the time in summer and high 60's in winter.
 
Dystopia

Dystopia

Active Member
MostlyCrazy said:
I have a question on DO. Do you think max air in the res can compensate for high temps? My grows have been doing really well since I upped the bubbles witha big air pump and my res temps hang in the mid-70's most of the time in summer and high 60's in winter.
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OK, this is fact mixed in with my understanding (or misunderstanding) so take it as you will.

As you probably know, the MASS of oxygen (or the maximum amount of oxygen) that can be dissolved in water varies by temperature. The lower the temperature, the higher POTENTIAL DO in the water; the opposite is true for higher water temps.

For instance, at 75*F the MAXIMUM amount of DO that can be present is approximately 8.5 mg/l...no amount of forced air will raise this level, but more forced air can GET you to this level.

The problem with forced air is that it is not easily dissolved...we are talking about oxygen in it's MOLECULAR state here (O2) and it is already stable and doesn't want to easily dissolve. Very little of the air bubbles actually dissolve into the solution. So yes, forcing MORE air in will supply MORE air to potentially dissolve (especially since the forced air is vigorously agitating the water) and will make it easier to reach the max level of DO for the temperature. But there is a point where you've maxed out with the forced air.

In my opinion, H2O2 allows you to obtain the max DO easier because H2O2 is ALREADY in an unstable state and the extra O- ATOM is ALREADY basically dissolved.

So if you're growing in high water temps then I would recommend both a higher rate of forced air and the use of H2O2 to insure that you reach your max DO rate for that temperature.
 
MostlyCrazy

MostlyCrazy

New Member
I'll give it a whirl and look to see improvement. Like your tech explanation. They are very understandable and that's hard to do with tech!

At what rate and when do you add the h2o2. Also what strength - 3%?
 
Dystopia

Dystopia

Active Member
RPsmoke420 said:
Hmmm.... Didn't consider DO at all. Guess I was just looking at the pro's ! :lol:

Yes, molasses would not be worth anything if used with h202, but would be more for the home brewer/organic minded grower. I know that many of the "secret" ingredients in organic nutes is the molasses. It does seem to work in soil, as long as you can keep the critters away.

But if your growing in a low DO enviroment anyway, then you already have issues you need to address. You need to get the temps down to allow more oxygen in my opinion, and shouldn't be experimenting heavily yet.

If you have temps in check, then maybe the molasses would be something "extra" you could play with, since I would assume you have most everything else under control/firm understanding.

I didn't want to post the entire article here and clutter this all up, but when you have time, give this post a read. I found it in another forum. he quoted the entire article perfectly it looks like. Its just info on molasses itself. Interesting reading.

http://www.gardenscure.com/420/863151-post14.html

:peace:
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Yep, I've read that article before...very good!

I have no doubt about the benefits of molasses, even in hydro. I wouldn't use organic nutrients in higher water temps for the same reason I wouldn't use molasses - organic nutrients are meant to attract/grow beneficial bacteria/fungi, which like lower temp/higher DO in water. But they will also attract the anaerobic pathogens that like higher temp/lower DO conditions if those conditions are present.

Chemical nutrients can be used in any conditions, but are REQUIRED in high temp/low DO conditions IN MY OPINION. Your chance of failure goes up, but you CAN grow successfully in these conditions...100% successfully if you grow in a STERILE environment. This is why I recommend chemical nutes and H2O2 in high water temp grow conditions...so you can maintain a sterile environment without the NEED for beneficials OR the danger of pathogens.

Of course, somebody will probably come and say how they've grown in high-temperature organic nutes for years without problem. To which I would say: smoking cigarettes doesn't always mean you'll get cancer...but it sure does increase the risk!
 
Dystopia

Dystopia

Active Member
MostlyCrazy said:
I'll give it a whirl and look to see improvement. Like your tech explanation. They are very understandable and that's hard to do with tech!

At what rate and when do you add the h2o2. Also what strength - 3%?
Click to expand...
Wow, I'm never going to do a VScrOG again...way too much time to train all the branches and shoots!

Anyways, I don't use H2O2 anymore now that I'm able to keep my res temps consistently around 68*F.

When I was growing in higher water temperatures I used both 3% and 35%. I generally go by ppm, but the label for Oxy-Blast (35%) says to apply at one teaspoon per 10 gallons, which I suppose would equate to about 1 tsp per gallon for 3%. This gives you about 30ppm H2O2.

But I've read about and have personally used higher levels...I've used up to 500 ppm H2O2 as a dip...I used 100 ppm (about 2 tablespoons/gallon of 3%) as a preventative measure. Bear in mind that these numbers are for mature plants and that I let my water sit overnight before using it; treat them like you would nutrients (1/4 strength for seedlings, etc.). Never add H2O2 directly to the reservoir with roots in it.

I would also only use these H2O2 levels when necessary...either after an infestation, or in high water-temp grows (above 76* F).

Just my opinion and experience...use your best judgement :peace:
 
MostlyCrazy

MostlyCrazy

New Member
Dystopia,

So When I add it I mix it in a gallon jug and add it to the res, right.

Wow, Ed's dosage is really high! I'd go very slowly and as you say only use it after a high res temp or some other sort of root problem. In any case I'm programmed to start out slow and not overreact to any problem. It only gets me in trouble when I do that.

I understand the chemistry of the molecular exchange and do see how it could be used as both a curative and temporary booster/recovery aid in certain situations.
 
grodrowithme

grodrowithme

Well-Known Member
h2o2 meaning peroxide right i use 1 to 2 ozs per 5 gal dwc bucket. which has ROOTS in it it doesnt hurt it all it does is adds oxygen to the water. if that is what you are refering to h202 as
 
Roseman

Roseman

Elite Rolling Society
Here is the article:

by Ed Rosenthal.
How much hydrogen peroxide should be used?


When and how much hydrogen peroxide should I use in my hydroponic solution?

Hydrogen peroxide is a powerful oxidizer that can be used to destroy fungi, molds, bacteria and other infectious agents as well as some pollutants. Adding it to your water helps plants by destroying infectious agents and by adding oxygen to the roots' environment.
Hydrogen peroxide is an essential ingredient in maintaining a clean growing room. It replaces chlorine bleach, which is antiseptic but harmful to breathe. When added to reservoirs, hydrogen peroxide slows the growth of algae and other water organisms so that trays and utensils need to be cleaned less frequently. Soil and water borne diseases such as pythium and other stem and root rots occur at much lower rates in hydrogen peroxide-enriched water. Hydrogen peroxide works because of the oxidative reaction, so micro-organisms are unlikely to develop a tolerance.
There are many ways to add hydrogen peroxide to the water. A measured amount every three days is the crudest method, but still effectively enriches the water. A smaller measured amount daily would even out the peaks and valleys of oxygen in the water. Another method is to use a drip similar to an IV bag, which continuously adds a regulated amount. The most sophisticated method is a probe which measures the oxygen content of the water as an indirect means of measuring the hydrogen peroxide, and adds an appropriate amount as needed.
When used properly, hydrogen peroxide can keep infections in the garden to a minimum and stimulate root growth by increasing the oxygen content of the water. Hydrogen peroxide degrades into free oxygen and water over a three-day period. Some of the oxygen dissolves in the reservoir water and is used by the roots.
Different concentrations of hydrogen peroxide solution are available. It is sold diluted to 3% in drug stores. Some indoor garden shops sell 10% grade and 35% grade is sold in a few health food stores and over the Internet. The 3% hydrogen peroxide solution can be used topically to sterilize cuts and infections. Hydrogen peroxide solution at 10% burns skin. 35% hydrogen peroxide solution acts much like a concentrated acid and is handled as a hazardous, corrosive liquid.
The 10% hydrogen peroxide solution is sometimes used at rates as low as one ounce per 10 gallons water; however, enrichment using an ounce per gallon is more effective for disease control. When 35% hydrogen peroxide solution is used, it can be added at the rate of three ounces per 10 gallons of water. If a 3% solution is used, use three ounces per gallon of water.
ZeroTol is a peroxide-based commercial sterilizing agent used in the greenhouse industry. Its active ingredient, HO2, also breaks down into oxygen and water, but it is even more active than 35% hydrogen peroxide. It is used at the rate of one part per 300, or three ounces per 10 gallons, for excellent prevention of diseases and infections. ZeroTol is available from Bio-Safe Systems in Connecticut (1-888-273-3088; www.biosafesystems.com) and through some other gardening supply stores.
 
stumps

stumps

Well-Known Member
I added the o2 bubbler to the rez last night. I'm running the o2 3-4 time a day for about an hour at a time. There is allready lots of new root growth. But I still have a large bit of slime in the root ball. I'm going to give it another day or two before cutting anymore slime out.
 
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