The Dogma of the left.

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Think about what life was like 10,000 years ago. Back then, women without mates had little chance of survival and even less chance of raising offspring successfully. Humans take years to become self sufficient and it was therefore in the best interest of females to choose a mate that was a good protector and provider and more importantly one who would stick around for 15 years until the kid was able to fend for himself or to be married off.

Want proof? That is why women are attracted to tall men - it is a product of evolutionary hard wiring. That is also why they are attracted to socially and financially successful men. It isn't just that they want what they have, it is that their brain is hard wired to find these things attractive. Remember, 10,000 years ago a woman with out a mate was essentially tiger food.
This is a perfect example of why statistics matter. And why when you come up with a assumption, like Obama appoints a disproportionate amount of black people I say show me the numbers to prove your point.

Because without it, someone may have equally as logical of an assumption, based on their same limited viewpoint as your limited viewpoint.

But when you are forced to toss numbers into the mix, it can give more weight to one idea over another. And to compete they must both be able to explain the actual data, if not it falls apart.

Like 2 things with your guesstimate. 1. That success does not equal height. and 2. That women prefer tall men.

number 2, is not supported by the data. In america the avg height is 5-10. Not very tall, not short, but not tall. How could this be the case? Well first, an extra 2-4 inches will not save you from your tiger, it will not allow you to farm more, it will not help you hunt better. So it really in no way helps you be a better provider.

Which is why #1 falls apart.

You can then see why women wouldn't care as much about height. Because throughout evolution, height did not mean they were better provided for. But it would account for them caring about traits that their fathers (who the majority had to be good providers if they were alive) possessed be it intelligence, humor, size, work ethic, ect. And this could also account for girls with broken families falling back into the same problematic lifestyle their mother picked.


But I would say that for men height matters more. Because fighting off a tiger with a spear a couple inches doesn't mean shit, and hunting you are not going to be able to outrun a deer, or tilling you will not be able to get the ox to move faster. But in direct human to human competition a little size does have a very positive effect. That is why there are weight classes in competitive one on one sports like wrestling, boxing, mma, because size is a huge advantage in competition.

And in a pack society, the dominant male usually gets to try to attract the females first, so they naturally have better shots at the 'hotter' ones.


So that in a nutshell shows how a little data should be used to back up your point. Otherwise it is just a guess with a very limited viewpoint, and can easily be "proven" wrong by the things other people have witnessed. Even if they don't use actual statistics, and are just going off of their 'gut', the things they have learned in life are just as relevant as what you have.

People can have different conclusions, but to be taken seriously they need to account for more of the information than the person had before them was able to do so.


Otherwise your just spewing garbage, like (almost)every time you open your mouth about 'liberals'.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
And also, you seem to be fine if they have all the same rights, but have to use a different name right? Ok, call it civil union, or whatever, as long as it is identical contractually and there are no loopholes that say they cannot do something that strait couples that are married can, then I could care less too.

But, isn't the term "Same Sex Marriage" already a better description, than "Civil Union", and isn't SSM different than "Marriage", so they already have called it by a different name.

Why does the term Marriage being apart of this ignite such fear?
Now you are getting to the point.

I am all for granting equal rights and I would be fine with anything that still allows the distinction between traditional marriage and same sex marriage.

The question is whether or not gays would be OK with it, and chances are they would not. The purpose of gay marriage is not to ensure rights - if this was the case civil unions would do the trick. What gays want, is to force everyone else to accept their lifestyle as mainstream. That is the whole point of changing the definition of marriage.

See, if we were to change the definition, one could not use the term "marriage" without automatically including gay couples as well as straight couples.

A good analogy might be to get rid of the terms "snake, lizard and turtle" and call all of them "reptiles." If the word "reptile was used for all, one could not differentiate. That is what Gays want, and it is unfair to people who believe that traditional opposite sex marriages have a holy component or other higher purpose.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
A good analogy might be to get rid of the terms "snake, lizard and turtle" and call all of them "reptiles." If the word "reptile was used for all, one could not differentiate. That is what Gays want, and it is unfair to people who believe that traditional opposite sex marriages have a holy component or other higher purpose.
To use your analogy, all of them on the general scale are reptiles. So you can call them all that and be correct if that is an accurate enough description for what you are looking to convey.

When your moving to a more micro scale, calling them a snake, or a turtle may be needed for further distinction.

Just like you may need to go further and call them a rattle snake, a wood snake, a gardener snake to convey your message. Because yeah if a rattler is about to bite you, saying a reptile is about to bite you is not as descriptive as the situation would dictate is needed.

I don't understand why you think that a civil union is the same as a marriage. Am I wrong in reading your generalization? A civil union has several differences over marriage. And anytime there is something written up, there are clear distinctions that make them different, and that is why people are not happy with them.

The only people that are very hung up on the name are the people that are on the side of marriage somehow being something special that cannot be altered. The definition of marriage? According to whom? Websters dictionary?

Main Entry: mar·riage
Pronunciation: \ˈmer-ij, ˈma-rij\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Anglo-French, from marier to marry
Date: 14th century
1 a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage> b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage
2 : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities
3 : an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry &#8212; J. T. Shawcross>
Because I don't see anything in there about adopting children, insurance benefits, inheritance issues, ect. So to me that definition that people are so worried about is the one that is in the lawbooks, and as any black person in the 1800's could have attested to (or anyone that smokes weed), just because it is a law, doesn't make it right.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
This is a perfect example of why statistics matter. And why when you come up with a assumption, like Obama appoints a disproportionate amount of black people I say show me the numbers to prove your point.

Because without it, someone may have equally as logical of an assumption, based on their same limited viewpoint as your limited viewpoint.

But when you are forced to toss numbers into the mix, it can give more weight to one idea over another. And to compete they must both be able to explain the actual data, if not it falls apart.

Like 2 things with your guesstimate. 1. That success does not equal height. and 2. That women prefer tall men.

number 2, is not supported by the data. In america the avg height is 5-10. Not very tall, not short, but not tall. How could this be the case? Well first, an extra 2-4 inches will not save you from your tiger, it will not allow you to farm more, it will not help you hunt better. So it really in no way helps you be a better provider.

Which is why #1 falls apart.

You can then see why women wouldn't care as much about height. Because throughout evolution, height did not mean they were better provided for. But it would account for them caring about traits that their fathers (who the majority had to be good providers if they were alive) possessed be it intelligence, humor, size, work ethic, ect. And this could also account for girls with broken families falling back into the same problematic lifestyle their mother picked.


But I would say that for men height matters more. Because fighting off a tiger with a spear a couple inches doesn't mean shit, and hunting you are not going to be able to outrun a deer, or tilling you will not be able to get the ox to move faster. But in direct human to human competition a little size does have a very positive effect. That is why there are weight classes in competitive one on one sports like wrestling, boxing, mma, because size is a huge advantage in competition.

And in a pack society, the dominant male usually gets to try to attract the females first, so they naturally have better shots at the 'hotter' ones.


So that in a nutshell shows how a little data should be used to back up your point. Otherwise it is just a guess with a very limited viewpoint, and can easily be "proven" wrong by the things other people have witnessed. Even if they don't use actual statistics, and are just going off of their 'gut', the things they have learned in life are just as relevant as what you have.

People can have different conclusions, but to be taken seriously they need to account for more of the information than the person had before them was able to do so.


Otherwise your just spewing garbage, like (almost)every time you open your mouth about 'liberals'.
I am repeating theories that are well established. Your take on them only shows your confusion and couldn't be further from the truth.

Statistically women prefer taller men. Taller men also earn more money and are promoted more frequently than shorter men. These facts are indisputable and if you want the statistics you can Google it.

I see how you are trying to use your own logic to make up an alternative theory out of whole cloth but you are oversimplifying things.

10,000 years ago, a taller man would not just be defending a woman against a tiger, but also against another man. And not just her, but also his and her resources such as food. And if I could pick between a guy 5'2" or one 6'5" to beat off a tiger with a club I would pick the taller guy - wouldn't you?

Wealth and social status are even more effective when it comes to protecting and providing because as humans are social animals ones alliances make one powerful. The Chief may not be the greatest hunter but he is still going to get the lion's share of the kill. I think that is why they call it "the lion's share." As in, the boss eats first and eats the most.

What you are attempting is something called "reductio ad absurdum" (sp?), or reduction to absurdity. If one can logically reduce a given premise to an absurd conclusion than the premise must be absurd. Above you have failed, which demonstrates that the premise is not absurd and is in this case logical.

These are not theories I just came up with, this is based on sound evolutionary theory. And by the way, there are no statistics or data that support evolution at all. What there are are scientific concepts which is a whole other type of proof.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
To use your analogy, all of them on the general scale are reptiles. So you can call them all that and be correct if that is an accurate enough description for what you are looking to convey.

When your moving to a more micro scale, calling them a snake, or a turtle may be needed for further distinction.

Just like you may need to go further and call them a rattle snake, a wood snake, a gardener snake to convey your message. Because yeah if a rattler is about to bite you, saying a reptile is about to bite you is not as descriptive as the situation would dictate is needed.

I don't understand why you think that a civil union is the same as a marriage. Am I wrong in reading your generalization? A civil union has several differences over marriage. And anytime there is something written up, there are clear distinctions that make them different, and that is why people are not happy with them.

The only people that are very hung up on the name are the people that are on the side of marriage somehow being something special that cannot be altered. The definition of marriage? According to whom? Websters dictionary?

Because I don't see anything in there about adopting children, insurance benefits, inheritance issues, ect. So to me that definition that people are so worried about is the one that is in the lawbooks, and as any black person in the 1800's could have attested to (or anyone that smokes weed), just because it is a law, doesn't make it right.
I see at this point you have closed down mentally and are not open to considering what others are saying. This is obvious because you have completely ignored what I said and have reverted back to pure dogma.

I would suggest re-reading what I wrote with an open mind and trying to understand it instead of just defaulting to Left wing talking points.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I see at this point you have closed down mentally and are not open to considering what others are saying. This is obvious because you have completely ignored what I said and have reverted back to pure dogma.

I would suggest re-reading what I wrote with an open mind and trying to understand it instead of just defaulting to Left wing talking points.
There you go again. You need to thicken up more than your skull. You keep pretending to have some special insight, and guess what, you do not. What did I say that is somehow so offensive you you that you just jump to me being a pure dogmatist? There is nothing in it, I don't care what it is called, it is the people that oppose it being called some sort of 'marriage' that have an issue. What you fail to realize is, my opinion is in the middle here, I say give them all the rights that others have and call it whatever you wish.

Pure and simple. No dogma, no 'closed down mentality', nothing. I get that you don't care if they have the rights too, congrats. But your still arguing the name of it? What is the point of that? Does it matter? Of course not, if you really believe that they should have the rights, that is all that truly should matter.

You wonder if they would be ok with it, well then we should just write a bill that says they have all the same legality, and can have any name for it other than the one word "Marriage" it can have something attached to it, like same sex, but it just cannot be that one word, because somehow it is too important for gay people, and they would say it was not good enough?

I laugh at that, because it is not them that are holding back legislation, it is the people that continually vote to strike it down. And it has nothing to do with a name, and everything to do with them not 'approving' of the way they live their lives.

10,000 years ago, a taller man would not just be defending a woman against a tiger, but also against another man. And not just her, but also his and her resources such as food. And if I could pick between a guy 5'2" or one 6'5" to beat off a tiger with a club I would pick the taller guy - wouldn't you?
I am saying it wouldn't matter. The 5'2 person with a spear has just as good of a chance at winning as the 6-5 person. Very little.


And as for over simplifying things, I may be, but it is to show that conclusions that do not attribute all the data are simply guesses.

How does your theory work with the avg height being only 5'10 in the us (now) and 5'7 in most of the developing countries?

And off the top of my head, I could argue that being married to a very large male may suck in times where food is scarce and may mean that the family will eat less because the man needs to consume more calories to survive, which is what kept a bottle neck on height until recent developments.

Tall doesn't mean evolutionarily better. And if that is the case, there is a breakdown somewhere in the logic that it is because of protection that women prefer tall men. I would be willing to go along with social status, but not protection.

For your 'protection' of the home to work, you would have to account for the fact that weight is more an issue in a fight than height is. BJ penn is one of the greatest fighters on the planet at 5-9. Skill does not equal height.

What you are attempting is something called "reductio ad absurdum" (sp?), or reduction to absurdity. If one can logically reduce a given premise to an absurd conclusion than the premise must be absurd. Above you have failed, which demonstrates that the premise is not absurd and is in this case logical.
And you keep saying that women like tall men for some sort of protection. I do think this is absurd, not that women prefer tall men, they seem to, but to say all women, and that it is for protection is where the absurdity lies. Otherwise we would not have an average height of 5-10 in the us.

The absurity also lies in the premise that a tall guy is somehow more powerful than a short guy. If this was the case BJ penn would not be the lightweight champ, it would be Kenny florian, or nate diaz (someone taller right). But it is not the case. You could then argue that it is the larger guy, and that has a lot more validity.

So yeah if I am engaging in this "Reductio ad absurdum" you just don't like what I am saying if you think the point is failed.

Because the mistake that height = protection is not the case, it is an illusion.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Mainstream......

Extreme.......

How about just admitting we're all one stream and help each other as best we can?
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
There you go again. You need to thicken up more than your skull. You keep pretending to have some special insight, and guess what, you do not. What did I say that is somehow so offensive you you that you just jump to me being a pure dogmatist? There is nothing in it, I don't care what it is called, it is the people that oppose it being called some sort of 'marriage' that have an issue. What you fail to realize is, my opinion is in the middle here, I say give them all the rights that others have and call it whatever you wish.

Pure and simple. No dogma, no 'closed down mentality', nothing. I get that you don't care if they have the rights too, congrats. But your still arguing the name of it? What is the point of that? Does it matter? Of course not, if you really believe that they should have the rights, that is all that truly should matter.

You wonder if they would be ok with it, well then we should just write a bill that says they have all the same legality, and can have any name for it other than the one word "Marriage" it can have something attached to it, like same sex, but it just cannot be that one word, because somehow it is too important for gay people, and they would say it was not good enough?

I laugh at that, because it is not them that are holding back legislation, it is the people that continually vote to strike it down. And it has nothing to do with a name, and everything to do with them not 'approving' of the way they live their lives.



I am saying it wouldn't matter. The 5'2 person with a spear has just as good of a chance at winning as the 6-5 person. Very little.


And as for over simplifying things, I may be, but it is to show that conclusions that do not attribute all the data are simply guesses.

How does your theory work with the avg height being only 5'10 in the us (now) and 5'7 in most of the developing countries?

And off the top of my head, I could argue that being married to a very large male may suck in times where food is scarce and may mean that the family will eat less because the man needs to consume more calories to survive, which is what kept a bottle neck on height until recent developments.

Tall doesn't mean evolutionarily better. And if that is the case, there is a breakdown somewhere in the logic that it is because of protection that women prefer tall men. I would be willing to go along with social status, but not protection.

For your 'protection' of the home to work, you would have to account for the fact that weight is more an issue in a fight than height is. BJ penn is one of the greatest fighters on the planet at 5-9. Skill does not equal height.



And you keep saying that women like tall men for some sort of protection. I do think this is absurd, not that women prefer tall men, they seem to, but to say all women, and that it is for protection is where the absurdity lies. Otherwise we would not have an average height of 5-10 in the us.

The absurity also lies in the premise that a tall guy is somehow more powerful than a short guy. If this was the case BJ penn would not be the lightweight champ, it would be Kenny florian, or nate diaz (someone taller right). But it is not the case. You could then argue that it is the larger guy, and that has a lot more validity.

So yeah if I am engaging in this "Reductio ad absurdum" you just don't like what I am saying if you think the point is failed.

Because the mistake that height = protection is not the case, it is an illusion.
Hanimmal, see if you have the capacity to abandon your assumptions and think about what others say.

I know that you are being closed minded because you have resorted to mere nay-saying. What you are doing is throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if you can get something to stick and in this case nothing is sticking.

The fact that you started rambling about different kinds of snakes proves this, and it proves that you are not comprehending what you are reading.

What I said about tall men is not something I made up, it is stuff I have read. Your analogy about MMA fighters is wrong. First, your average cave man was not a highly skilled MMA fighter so your theory dies there. In a contest between two evenly matched opponents, the taller one has the advantage. I have spoken with MMA fighters and they all say that it is by far best to be the tallest person in your weight class. BJ, though a great champion would get crushed by Anderson Silva.

But don't take my word for it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/600481.stm

Anyway, back to the definition of marriage. You need to understand that words are very powerful things. Words, are the currency though which ideas are traded. If one were to regularly refer to Blacks as "niggers" you would probably see this word as having a powerful effect, right?

Many people use the term "marriage" to mean a holy union between a man and a woman that is blessed by God. This is clear from the term "holy matrimony."

Once you change the definition of the term, you change it for everyone, not just for some - still with me?

So, once the term "marriage" referees to two men as well as a man and woman, it can NEVER be used to specifically mean the holy union of man and woman. In fact, there will be no word for this specific arrangement. So, by merging the two distinct definitions into one word (same sex with opposite sex) you have in effect, eradicated the distinction. Picture all bathrooms being called "unisex" - how would you ask where the men's room is? You could not - you could only ask where the unisex room is. Now if you are not real clear on this, read it a few times if that is what it takes. I know it is confusing.

Now, do you see that some people might want to mean only opposite sex marriage when they say the word marriage? Can you see that some people might want to teach their kids about traditional marriage? kind of hard to do when the word means something else isn't it?

Gays have been offered civil unions with all the same rights as traditional couples. They don't want that. What they want is to destroy the distinction between their union and the traditional type. The goal is to eliminate the way we think and speak of traditional marriage by eliminating the term used to make the distinction.

Are you following any of this?
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
What I said about tall men is not something I made up, it is stuff I have read. Your analogy about MMA fighters is wrong. First, your average cave man was not a highly skilled MMA fighter so your theory dies there. In a contest between two evenly matched opponents, the taller one has the advantage. I have spoken with MMA fighters and they all say that it is by far best to be the tallest person in your weight class. BJ, though a great champion would get crushed by Anderson Silva.
From the age of 10 to 23 my life consisted of grappling sports. I love MMA, Wrestling, Bjj, boxing, pretty much all sports, so even more than what I currently know about my field of study, and can say with 100% certainty, what you are saying is not what I had said, Silva vs Penn would be a classic example of a WEIGHT difference, The height advantage would have nothing over the extra 50-60lbs silva's natural body weight would give.

And for your thinking that not everyone is a MMA fighter, congrats on the obvious, but that is a example of what I am saying, if you prefer I could have said Steve Fraiser for a wrestling example, but figured you would not have a clue who he is even though he is from Hazel Park.

And I would again disagree with it dying there, because you did not look at the fact that it is a fact of life. Almost every guy on the planet grew up wrestling around as a kid with others. That is pretty much how the pecking order on the play ground was decided. You put a couple boys together and your pretty much assured that a wrestling match will break out eventually.

It is the same with almost every species too, we practice fighting from a very young age, and only recently have we slowed the amount of contact that we allow our children to participate in. So I will again disagree, we knew how to effectively fight from our earliest evolution. And skill, practice and tenacity trumps height every time. Size can be a great equalizer though.

If you want to talk about actual advantages, you would have been better off looking into things like leverage and how the length of the arms will impact the strength of a punch, But even then it all comes down to skill.

And like I tell my very pro gun friends, if someone is breaking into my house, they always like to talk shit about how they will shoot them, but I like to point out, that they are sleeping and unless the person is loud you may not be awake until it is too late.

On the other hand (just like our early ancestors) I will always know because my 2 big ass dogs will take care of the issue and let me know what is happening. Hell I may not even have to get out of bed for the situation to be fixed.

So again protection due to height is bullshit in my opinion.




But you know what, that is actually my whole point to all of this, it is my OPINION. I have been going back and forth with you the last couple rounds, not because I disagree that a portion of women prefer tall men.

But you seem to have actually studied this phenomenon right? You are pulling out scientific terms, and pointing to data (which is disputable, but still A for effort, I am sure you have more stuff you could point to it is just not as easy as the BK post.), you talked with professors about this, you talk about having a paper ready to be published.

You really have dedicated a lot to this. So me coming in with just my real life examples, and guesswork and peicemeal theories, doesn't hold up to scrutiny, and all I can really do is continue to belittle you and call you out on where your theory breaks apart, never really using data because it can be used to show what you are saying right?

Like 5-10 stat, you could point to the fact in evolutionary terms that IS tall in comparison, and that is why developing countries are about 5-7. It is because natural selection and improvements in diet have been pushing us to becoming larger species.

So in the end you have science on your side. And this adds weight to my original intention, the established sciences and education is in place because it has held up, and nothing has been able to push it aside yet, because it doesn't have as much science and data to support it.

And that is why when you rally against the "Liberal Educational Brainwashing", you are just taking the side of the unestablished garbage that is spewed. If it is that great it will rise to the top.

Just like everything else that was true in history that eventually has had to become excepted, leaving the old thoughts to become something of a joke: Earth is flat, sun revolves around the earth, the continents not moving, on and on.

All these ideas that were so controversial at their times, were ridiculed more out of fear (doesn't help when scientists are murdered for talking heresy) but their science was generally excepted right away by the people that could understand it, as they already had their own questions about the methodology of their current 'science'.

So next time you are arguing something that is against the establishment, maybe you should look into using more data, and stay away from generalizations. Because unless you can put together a case that is stronger than the people who devoted their lives to studying what you are talking about, you will always be the cook.

And maybe you will have a little better idea of why when you say Obama has appointed a disproportionate amount of black people, I say where is the data to back up your claim.


Many people use the term "marriage" to mean a holy union between a man and a woman that is blessed by God. This is clear from the term "holy matrimony."
So why not just coin the term "Holy Union" for the church to put onto the strait people that get married? I mean isn't it more about what the word is representing than the actual fact that they have the same benefits? This would allow you all to continue to feel differentiated over gay marriages.


Gays have been offered civil unions with all the same rights as traditional couples. They don't want that. What they want is to destroy the distinction between their union and the traditional type. The goal is to eliminate the way we think and speak of traditional marriage by eliminating the term used to make the distinction.
Really?

Name one time that they have been offered the same rights as a traditional married couple? Just one, and then show how they said they don't want it. That is such a retarded statement you made. These things are not up to the gay community like you somehow seem to think.

They are voted on by the public or politicians. And have nothing to do with the gay communities decision to not want it. That is just a stupid assertion you made.

Anyway, back to the definition of marriage. You need to understand that words are very powerful things. Words, are the currency though which ideas are traded. If one were to regularly refer to Blacks as "niggers" you would probably see this word as having a powerful effect, right?
Yup you are off your rocker again, using that word is the same as marriage describing a union of two people under the law.

So, once the term "marriage" referees to two men as well as a man and woman, it can NEVER be used to specifically mean the holy union of man and woman. In fact, there will be no word for this specific arrangement. So, by merging the two distinct definitions into one word (same sex with opposite sex) you have in effect, eradicated the distinction. Picture all bathrooms being called "unisex" - how would you ask where the men's room is? You could not - you could only ask where the unisex room is. Now if you are not real clear on this, read it a few times if that is what it takes. I know it is confusing.

Now, do you see that some people might want to mean only opposite sex marriage when they say the word marriage? Can you see that some people might want to teach their kids about traditional marriage? kind of hard to do when the word means something else isn't it?
lol no, see you again put prejudice into the word 'marriage', you called it a holy union use that, would it piss you off if instead of marriage they had same sex marriage become the term "Holy Union"? I would bet it would, even though it is not the word marriage. You think somehow calling it "Same Sex Marriage" is akin to only having a "Unisex" bathroom?

I mean you don't realize instead of men and women on the stalls, it would be "Human" if you want the analogy your making to be more appropriate. And even then there are distinctions inside of the word human, like female and male. You said something about the snake analogy, but it is you that did not get it.

You have a hierarchy of terms, like

All rectangles are not squares, but all squares are rectangles.

All snakes are reptiles, but not all reptiles are snakes.

And same with all same sex marriages are marriages, but not all marriages are same sex.

You really think that is so difficult you could not figure out how to explain marriage to your kid?
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
Hanimmal, most of what you posted above is nothing but incoherent rambling and the only thing you are demonstrating is that this conversation is out of reach for you.

Before you brought up fighting ability, saddled that tangent and rode it into the sunset, I was explaining the roots of marriage and monogamy as it relates to basic survival and promulgation of the species. The explanation was clearly lost on you.

Likewise, your understanding of the issue of gay marriage is severely lacking. Proof of this lies in the fact that you are unaware than many people, Conservatives included, have argued that Gays should be able to enter into civil unions that guarantee them all the same rights and benefits as traditional marriage. The only difference would be that the way we view traditional marriage and the definition of the word itself would be preserved. In all honesty, it appears that the subtle differences to which I am referring and the reasons for this are simply to complicated for you to grasp.

Your constant cries for data are clearly a desperate last resort. I did post data demonstrating that Obama appointed a disproportionate number of Blacks - you just missed it. True, I did not calculate every last Obama appointee as that would be very difficult but given the circumstances, the data I did post was more than adequate. You are simply demanding more specific data because you know producing it would be too burdensome. Why don't you be honest and just admit that this is the real reason you are asking for it. You are just employing a typical insidious Left wing argument technique, nothing more, nothing less.

So what now, you want data to prove that the long term mating arrangement of humans is more than just a tradition? What kind of "data" do you suppose exists? You want real proof? Well, if marriage was purely tradition it would only be found in certain cultures. After all, traditions are just part of the given culture - right? Marriage is something that is universal and not limited to any given culture. Therefore, marriage is not a product of tradition but a natural part of human existence.

So there is your proof - no data but proof never the less.

As for my point about the meaning of the word marriage, it is becoming clear that you are not going to get it. The logic you are reaching for is represented by something called a &#8220;Venn diagram.&#8221; This is when you draw overlapping circles and determine in which circles your object exists. For instance, if one were to draw a big circle and label it &#8220;reptiles,&#8221; inside would be smaller circles labeled snake, lizard, turtle, etc. This would illustrate that while all snakes are reptiles not all reptiles are snakes. So yes, if we were to give gay and straight marriage each DIFFERENT names, one could speak about either with specificity. But give them the SAME name (marriage) and you have a situation in which there can be no distinction. This is why we have trademarks on products and why they are vigorously protected. Because if someone uses your trademark for their knock off product it causes confusion over who&#8217;s product is being purchased and it causes dilution in that product&#8217;s reputation. Perhaps I should change my screen name to hanimmal for a week and make all kinds of crazy white supremacist posts - maybe then you would get it.

Gays do not want people to be able to distinguish between a gay and straight marriage. That is why they reject civil unions and insist on nothing short of fully redefining marriage. They do not want people to be able to talk to their kids about marriage without explaining gay marriage. They do not want schools to have children&#8217;s books depicting straight marriage unless they also depict gay marriage equally. And you can bet that if marriage is redefined to include gay marriage the lawsuits will fly over gays not being equally represented in every area of life. They will quite literally be forcing their lifestyle down the throats of everyone else. I really don&#8217;t see what is so complicated.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
This is why we have trademarks on products and why they are vigorously protected. Because if someone uses your trademark for their knock off product it causes confusion over who&#8217;s product is being purchased and it causes dilution in that product&#8217;s reputation. Perhaps I should change my screen name to hanimmal for a week and make all kinds of crazy white supremacist posts - maybe then you would get it.
First this is not true, to be too accurate about this, you would have to be called hanimmal2 or some slight alteration of my name.

As for my point about the meaning of the word marriage, it is becoming clear that you are not going to get it. The logic you are reaching for is represented by something called a &#8220;Venn diagram.&#8221; This is when you draw overlapping circles and determine in which circles your object exists. For instance, if one were to draw a big circle and label it &#8220;reptiles,&#8221; inside would be smaller circles labeled snake, lizard, turtle, etc. This would illustrate that while all snakes are reptiles not all reptiles are snakes. So yes, if we were to give gay and straight marriage each DIFFERENT names, one could speak about either with specificity. But give them the SAME name (marriage) and you have a situation in which there can be no distinction.
Actually this is funny.
I have to say, you win on this.

Your right that would be the case. See again actual information that has been studied trumps half ass 'knowledge' that we all pretend to have. By calling it gay marriage it would of course lead to people deeming the other 'strait marriage' forcing them to no longer be just the word 'marriage'. But their could be a classification where a 'union' would include both marriage and civil union.

Although I may ardently disagree with you about why this matters (and your saying that there has been a choice given to gay people that they can have a civil union that is identical in all aspects to what strait people that are married have, but they said no because they want it called a 'marriage'). I now completely understand why calling it 'marriage' could matter to the people that care about this.

Gays do not want people to be able to distinguish between a gay and straight marriage. That is why they reject civil unions and insist on nothing short of fully redefining marriage. They do not want people to be able to talk to their kids about marriage without explaining gay marriage.
Again now that I see it from your point of view I can see what your saying about this too.

But I still am able to see it from their point of view. Imagine that all your life you have had to deal with people messing with you for being different. Maybe a lot of people got through life and never felt out of place, but you have to know it was a lot different for them.

So maybe you would understand that some of them may want to not have to be 'different' in their relationship for once in this one small, but important way. They have been told they are going to hell from the church for years, and they may have only wanted to feel that acceptance that the church can offer. Even if you don't believe in Christianity we all know how nice it can be to be around so many nice people. And imagine how it would be to be told you cannot be apart of us. Of course those people would fight for that acceptance.

But we both know it is not like that for many people.

So I would be willing to bet everything I have that if given a vote on everything being identical under law between a gay couple and a strait couple, except one is called a marriage and the other a civil union, the gay people would choose yes.

And that last bit was ridiculous, and I think that rereading it you will agree.
 

anhedonia

Well-Known Member
+points for the gay thing...but why is it exactly that you are so condescending to everyone like we are all ignorant and you somehow have insight into unmitigated, immutable truth?? It makes You really look like a jackass.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
Hanimmal, I am glad you decided to think about what I wrote. I have no problem with people who disagree with me - only with people who chose verbal combat over understanding and clarity. When done a few times I often assume the person is incapable - perhaps I was mistaken.

The last part is the REAL issue. The rest is simply smoke and mirrors. I fully appreciate what Gays must go through and how it effects them emotionally. While being gay might not be a choice, announcing it to the world is. And while it may hurt their feelings when a portion of society doesn't accept their nature or lifestyle, forcing them to is not an answer.

I support the notion that Gays should enjoy all the same rights as the rest of us 100%. But, what I do not support is the attempt to legislate or force acceptance of any group. This is what the gay marriage fight is really about - it isn't about rights which could easily be granted in the form of a civil union, it is about forcing others to accept the gay lifestyle by stamping it with the same brand and same seal of approval that is used to endorse straight marriage.

Once that happens, gay groups backed by the ACLU will be fast at work bludgeoning us all with equality proceedings designed to force this lifestyle into the main stream. While I have nothing against this lifestyle, I am unconvinced that homosexuality is a particularly healthy situation, and unconvinced that it doesn't stem from childhood trauma. I am also unconvinced that exposing children to this lifestyle is not harmful and until I see clear and convincing evidence, I refuse to gamble with the well being of children. After all, there is no evidence that being raised in a frat house or a whore house is harmful to children, but because of lack of evidence we don't just assume it is OK. To do so would be to commit the fallacy of argument ad ignorantiam, or "from ignorance." This is when one argues that the absence of proof one way is proof of the opposite. Notice I never said I know it is harmful to children because there is no proof to the contrary; that would be from ignorance. I only said I do NOT know and therefore error on the side of caution.

But children aside, I will never sign on to any legislation that attempts to force people to think a certain way and in my best analysis that is what the gay marriage debate is about. If I am wrong they should not have a problem with civil unions - the fact that they do proves that I am correct. And their own words prove this as well. I have heard numerous Gays argue that the real fight is nothing short of full recognition of their lifestyle and that this means eliminating the distinction between gay and straight marriage. It is their stated goal.
 
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