The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering

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wbinwv

Well-Known Member
laserbrn said:
It may very well be, I just think it's too high in P and I wouldn't have used it until later in flower. But I usually grow in Hydro and things are a little different. It's clearly not a bloom booster because it has N, most of them have none and books P and/or K heavily.

It seems like it was working and something else has gone wrong if it's that drastic. Buds look good though, which is always the argument for the high P fertilizers. You're definitely going to get a good yeild and they look great.
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Thank you and I do agree with you that there is a problem somewhere. Maybe UB can shed some light.

I'm switching to Aero on my next grow anyway.
 
IslandGreenGuy

IslandGreenGuy

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
In spite of your leaves falling off? Sorry, I don't get it.

I'm gonna give your method a try to the fullest. And if it truely does yeild more then my current ways, I will not only praise you in this forum, but I will tell everyone I was wrong and you were right. But first, Here is my problem...

I do have some yellowing on the lower leaves and some may drop off. I don't this as an issue at all considering the light doesn't even penatrate the leaves that were falling off anyway.

Couldn't it be that the leaves are falling off becasue the plant knows that those leaves are just waisting water and nutrients, because they cant properly complete photosynthesis being so far from a strong light source? And as a solution to the problem they just get rid of them.

Just to back this theory up a bit.
I do notice that the plants I have grow outside using the same nutrients didn't have the yellowing or dropping leaves during flowering. Probibly because the light is penatrating much deaper. It just makes more sense to me then a lack of N or to much P.

the reason I wouldn't say it's becasue of a lack of nitrogen, is because I have plenty of it in my ferts.

I was just stating before in an earlier post that the clones I grow without adding AN big bud (0-17-38) or shultz bloom booster (10-54-10) were much smaller then the one's I did add it to. I'm talking like 50% smaller. And I was using Advanced Nutrients 3 part GMB.

No doubt that your method works you have proved it with your pictures. I would just say that for a new grower or intermediate grower, It would be much easier to stick with the info thats more readily available in the growing community. So when they ask for help, they don't get 500 other growers telling them they are wrong and need to learn the proper way of doing stuff.

You can bet that i'm gonna put your method to the test on my next grow. After all it's gonna cost me a lot less and possibly yeild a good amount more. I let you know how it goes..

Uncle Ben, what size pots you use, and how about the soil mix? I just want to make sure I'm right on the money.
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Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
ejf1676 said:
uncle ben this is very intriguing advice i am kind of new to indoor and have had many of the issues you have described and have had a hard time finding straight forward information based in experience (lots of technical speculation) next grow i will definitely try prescribing to your theory's i will be using ionic brand ferts soil/coco 2-1-2 and bloom 1-1-3 on my hydro shops recommendation (he had really good results with this) as i am new to this fert it will be interesting to see how it works and what supplements it will need (i supplement organically as being familiar to outdoor) as i am not able to find much in the way of people who use these nutes anyway thanks uncle well presented!
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Thanks, hope it works out for you! Don't worry about the buds....worry about the root system and foliage.

Stoney Jake said:
Beautiful UB
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Gracias ~

IslandGreenGuy said:
I'm gonna give your method a try to the fullest. And if it truely does yeild more then my current ways, I will not only praise you in this forum, but I will tell everyone I was wrong and you were right. But first, Here is my problem...

I do have some yellowing on the lower leaves and some may drop off. I don't this as an issue at all considering the light doesn't even penatrate the leaves that were falling off anyway.
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Depends on your garden profile, but you're right, only R and FR light penetrates to the lower area.

Couldn't it be that the leaves are falling off becasue the plant knows that those leaves are just waisting water and nutrients, because they cant properly complete photosynthesis being so far from a strong light source? And as a solution to the problem they just get rid of them.
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True. The plant uses a CO2 flag. If the leaf isn't processing much CO2 for whatever reason, it drops it, first determining whether it's productive or not.

Just to back this theory up a bit.
I do notice that the plants I have grow outside using the same nutrients didn't have the yellowing or dropping leaves during flowering. Probibly because the light is penatrating much deaper. It just makes more sense to me then a lack of N or to much P.
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Part of that flag. You can't paint plant culture with one broad brush. It's the sum of the parts.

the reason I wouldn't say it's becasue of a lack of nitrogen, is because I have plenty of it in my ferts.

I was just stating before in an earlier post that the clones I grow without adding AN big bud (0-17-38) or shultz bloom booster (10-54-10) were much smaller then the one's I did add it to. I'm talking like 50% smaller. And I was using Advanced Nutrients 3 part GMB.
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OK, so the productivity issue goes right back to my premise - how is the health of the leaves?

No doubt that your method works you have proved it with your pictures.
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I don't have no method, me and you only have botany.

I would just say that for a new grower or intermediate grower, It would be much easier to stick with the info thats more readily available in the growing community.
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Which most times is erroneous, but, you do what you want to do.

So when they ask for help, they don't get 500 other growers telling them they are wrong and need to learn the proper way of doing stuff.
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Seems to me they need to find out what makes a plant tick. Rest becomes easy.

Uncle Ben, what size pots you use, and how about the soil mix? I just want to make sure I'm right on the money.
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I germ in a 1 gallon pot or less, upcan and finish in a 3 or 5 gallon. I mix my own soil.

UB
 
billdo

billdo

Well-Known Member
Yeah... it is no biggie to have to use a little big of Grow it Green with the Flower Power. The stuff is so forgiving on mixes, I have even started to eyeball measurements and then double check my measurements on the EC meter. I am training myself to be able to do that shit on the fly.

It would be great if they added a little N to the Flower Power, but no biggie if they don't.
 
spiked1

spiked1

Well-Known Member
I recently bought some Guano for the first time as I haven't been able to find it in OZ before.
I have 2 types, GROW is 10.10.2 and BLOOM is 1.9.1.
It is very low in potassium which I've attempted to make up for by adding mollasses.
What do you guys think, should I add something else to it as well?
 
Stoney Jake

Stoney Jake

Well-Known Member
I started adding some grow nuts to my mix and noticed an immediate improvement. Leaves stopped yellowing but the ones that were already yellowing finished and fell off. No new ones have started yellowing though.
It could just be a quinsadence but the buds seems to be growing at a faster rate(week 5 1/2 of 9-10). I just put some clones in flowering last week and have been giving them 6ml flowering(5-10-5) and 3ml of grow(12-6-6) with some molasses(about 20ml). Lookin forward to seeing the difference between them and their moms.
 
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Never Secret, Never Safe

Active Member
It's called the law of minimums. A plant will only grow as much as it's limiting factor allows. Be it Calcium, Magnesium, or any other nutrient. Minus these nutrients and plants get diseases.

Too much can be inhibitory. Just add as much as needed but no more than twice as much. More than that could stress the plant.
 
spiked1

spiked1

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Saltpeter would be a great source for K.
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Saltpetre (US Saltpeter)
Potassium Nitrate NPK = 13-0-38
If I added this to my Guano Bloom It would be NPK 14-9-39
I'm not sure that would be a good thing.
Any other way to increase Potassium while keeping it Organic?
 
Stoney Jake

Stoney Jake

Well-Known Member
Never Secret said:
It's called the law of minimums. A plant will only grow as much as it's limiting factor allows. Be it Calcium, Magnesium, or any other nutrient. Minus these nutrients and plants get diseases.

Too much can be inhibitory. Just add as much as needed but no more than twice as much. More than that could stress the plant.
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Im not sure what your point is. My first grow I used no nutes, only water, light and my plant grew fine ane the smoke was good. I had no "diseases" from lack of nutrients. A lower yield and less trichomes maybe but no diseases
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
spiked1 said:
Saltpetre (US Saltpeter)
Potassium Nitrate NPK = 13-0-38
If I added this to my Guano Bloom It would be NPK 14-9-39
I'm not sure that would be a good thing.
Any other way to increase Potassium while keeping it Organic?
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Organic? Is that an idealogy you hold so dear or do you know something I don't? Whether saltpeter is derived from manure or processed in a mill, a salt is a salt to a plant. Your organics are useless unless the either contain salts from the get-go or will convert to them, like blood or bone meal does.

Good point on the Law of Minimums. Here's a good site too: http://retirees.uwaterloo.ca/~jerry/orchids/nutri.html

Good luck,
UB
 
spiked1

spiked1

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Organic? Is that an idealogy you hold so dear or do you know something I don't? Whether saltpeter is derived from manure or processed in a mill, a salt is a salt to a plant. Your organics are useless unless the either contain salts from the get-go or will convert to them, like blood or bone meal does.


UB
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Why did you pick on that particular part and ignore what I said about the nitrogen content of saltpetre? Did you read my post or do you have something against growing as organically as I can?
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
spiked1 said:
Why did you pick on that particular part and ignore what I said about the nitrogen content of saltpetre? Did you read my post or do you have something against growing as organically as I can?
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1. The organic market is a racket based on feelings than fact,

2. Not sure what your point was about the NPK.

Good luck,
UB
 
spiked1

spiked1

Well-Known Member
Fair enough. I live in a small country town these days and lost my license so I'm fairly limited in what I can get from the local hardware store.
I bought 10 litres of Guano online, if I had known the NPK was 1.9.1. I probably wouldn't have bought it. I'll look into the saltpetre.
Thanks.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
spiked1 said:
Fair enough. I live in a small country town these days and lost my license so I'm fairly limited in what I can get from the local hardware store.
I bought 10 litres of Guano online, if I had known the NPK was 1.9.1. I probably wouldn't have bought it. I'll look into the saltpetre.
Thanks.
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I forgot to mention it, greensand is a good source of K. What the short or long term availability is of the actual K is, or what salt form, I don't know.

UB
 
Bud Frosty

Bud Frosty

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
I wrote this years ago and thought I'd share it here.

The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering

A common mistake for growers when they reach the flowering stage is to start hitting the plants with a high P fert like a 10-50-10, continuing to use this blend exclusively, and when their plants start experiencing a deficit of N, Ca, Mg or micros as reflected by the dropping of lower leaves and chlorosis, they wonder why. Plants flower as a response to long nights, not because of fert blends high in P. A ratio of 10-60-10 is WAY too high in P. The plant will only take what it needs and compete for other elements that may be more important at the time.

You may have heard that too much N can inhibit flowering. No question about it, exclusive use of a plant food that is rich in N such as blood meal, a 5-1-1 blend, or ammonium nitrate/sulfate may inhibit flowering especially if the phosphorous level is low, but most balanced blends have sufficient amount of P to do the job. The question is - "how much P is enough to support a good flowering response and still retain my leaves?"

Manufacturers/horticulturists will give you element analysis and what effect the elements have on plant growth, but remember this does not necessarily mean you will get better yields. Using a high P fert exclusively during flowering can actually work against you due to impending leaf drop. It's an abundant amount of healthy leaves going into 12/12 and maintaining their health that produces a lot of bud, not high P ferts.

I rotate fert blends as the plant *requires* them, not because it is "the thing to do." For example, when your plants are going thru the stretch phase during early flowering, they may need more N, especially if you're getting some yellowing in the lower leaves. Give up the cannabis paradigms and give them what they need. Go back to mild high P fert when the stretch ends, maintaining the foliage in a healthy state of growth until harvest for maximum yields. A 1-3-2 blend such as Peter's Pro Blossom Booster, 10-30-20, is one of the best flowering blends on the market because of several factors - it is higher in nitrate N and Mg. It is sold under the Jack's Classic label. An added benefit of Peters blends is their use of high quality, very pure salts that will eliminate root burn if used judiciously.

Uncle Ben
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I agree, Uncle Ben.
How many threads have you seen that start out; OMG MY LEAVES ARE DYING!
After switching to 12/12, it's still the same plant. If your plant is doing well, the last thing you want to do is throw it a curveball. I always give mine more N during the stretch and dont up the P until halfway through flowering. Even then, sparingly. Watch the plant. She'll tell you what she needs.

P.S. Keep up the awesome grows.
 
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