The Perfect God as a Reality

I really don’t think anyone can conceive a perfect being. I’m pretty sure a perfect being has no thirst, no hunger, no itch, no intuition, no opinion, and no need or desire to build. After all, doesn’t a need to create imply imperfection, at least on some small level? God doesn’t get bored. He doesn’t recognize beauty or take inspiration. He shouldn’t have a want to manufacture something that wasn’t there before. He’s a perfect being. Even the very existence of something tips the scale of observation in favor of it being imperfect. If something exists, it’s suddenly limited, isn’t it?

There was a wonderful stream of logic sourced in the “God Delusion” that basically came to the conclusion that if we assume the merits of a creator depend on the hardships he faces in the act of creating, then a god that doesn’t exist would have a harder time with the creation of things than a god that DOES exist, and therefore a god that doesn’t exist would be a more perfect god than one that does exist. It’s confusing, but what I get out of it is the idea that simple existence, and the implication of actions being taken, be those actions the creation of all things, the decree of commandments, the punishment and rewarding of behavior... all seem to me to imply some miniscule level of imperfection. It isn’t just the fact that the WAY god seemingly acts seems to have a human hand behind it, it’s the fact that god acts at all.

And even if we were to assume something perfect COULD exist in reality, then wouldn’t a perfect being be fine with JUST existence? I imagine a big cloud somewhere in space. No one can see it, and it doesn’t affect anything that moves through it. It’s perfect. All it does is exist. As soon as you start saying that cloud loves, condemns, creates, destroys, wants you to join it, wants you to hear it, wants you to trust in it... I start to see something less perfect than it was before.

God in the Christian tradition has a very specific thing he wants from us. He wants us to hear the Word, give our love to him, accept Jesus Christ as our lord and savior. But... God also transcends time and space. He has no limitations. He sees us now and he sees us at the end of days, so he pretty much knows who has accepted Christ and who hasn’t, though we ourselves have to live our whole lives and eventually GET there. He already knows. So what Christians want me to believe is that God loves me and wants me to give my full belief to him. But he already knows if I do or if I don’t, so he can’t possibly be getting anything out of watching me live my life. So I’m supposed to expect I’m like a football game He’s TiVoed and He doesn’t want to skip to the end, and He’s huddled there with popcorn watching me go through my trials and He’s cheering for me to at some point fall to my knees and accept Him? Basically, if He already knows what I’m going to do, my life as I live it should offer him nothing. And if He DOESN’T already know what I’m going to do, as in “God may transcend time and space but destiny is not predetermined and it’s always changing”, then He’s not exactly a perfect being, is He? Either God knows everything and knows how it’s all going to end, or he doesn’t know everything.

But let’s concede this even further. Let’s say that not only can a perfect god EXIST, but a perfect god can also CREATE. Forget that a perfect being would probably transcend a whim to create. Let’s say yes God does exist and yes he creates. Even if this were true, could anyone really imagine what it would be that a perfect being would create? What the hell does something perfect create? What appeases a perfect being? What’s good enough? For some reason all I can imagine is more clouds in space that no one can see or touch. Is a perfect being satisfied with a imperfect creation? And if so we are to assume he made it imperfect on purpose. But here we go again- doesn’t a “purpose” matter nothing to a perfect being? What does a perfect being need to accomplish?

I think at the end of my argument, all I want to imply is that people that believe god is perfect have more than just his human like actions to contend with. Calling something perfect suddenly opens up a whole new line of questioning, namely the implication of what a perfect being’s point is. What’s it’s point? I love the imperfect gods of Greek myth. They are practically human, just with a shit load of power. That’s how I imagine a real god would be. Imperfect, bumbling, always willing to turn into a bull if it means it might get laid. MAN those Greeks had some stores.

In the Dead Sea Scroll, THE ESSENE GOSPEL OF PEACE, translated by Szekely, there is a story of Jesus sitting around a campfire with some apostles, and Peter asked Jesus
Who is your Father? Who is God?
and Jesus replied
My Father is the LAW that made you.


I think or believe that we make a big mistake by giving God masculinity, and portraying God as a elderly old king-man-being on a throne.
My God is not a Being. My God does not really sit on a throne and have a beard. MY God is not located in one place or in one space.
My God is THE LAW THAT MADE ME. My God is a FORCE, a POWER, a RULE, a BALANCE, a WAY, and a PRINCIPLE that governs and rules all creation.

True, but if God is just a law, then there is no heaven.

growthspurt said:

True, but if God is just a law, then there is no heaven.

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No, there is a Heaven..., and a Hell - We experience it all the time.., We are just looking at it with all the wrong angles, and direction.. Here's a few questions and Thought.

Do you ever wish to wake up from a Dream?

What turns a dream into a nightmare?

What happens when you wake up from a nightmare?


you can find many of these answers easier within Buddism.. Although the scriputres in the Bible display a similar anecdote to the answer, just interpreted differently..

When you realized there was No Santa Claus, did you try to find Rudolph's Red Nose in the Snow to prove it.., Or did you look for Mom & Dad sneeking down the Stairs..?

Proper investigating tools, deliver properly investigaed Answers.., Find the proper tool..

And perfection is everywhere, the perfect crooked teeth, the perfect wilted flower.., it is Only the imperfections you have chosen to separate from your perfections..

growthspurt said:

True, but if God is just a law, then there is no heaven.

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That is YOUR asumption, but not mine.

I started writing a book, back in the 80s, never finished it. Its in a box in the barn somewhere. But it is about what could we safely assume or know or figure out about this world and God and life in general, without reading a book or having a Spiritual Leader to tell us.

For an example,

from just living in this world, we can easily see and figure out and know that from time to time, there is always going to be Storms, Rainy days, Cloudy dark days, and Rain Clouds. Rain and storms are just a part of life.
We also talk about bad life experiences as Storms too, in a metaphor way of speaking. When we have what we call BAD LUCK, we say a dark cloud is over us.
So life teaches us that there are always going to be Storms in our day to day lives too. There is going to be illness, there is going to be disputes, there is going to be flat tires on the highway of life, there are going to be unhappiness and battles and struggles, all of which we can call a Storm, or a rainy day, or a rain cloud or dark clouds or dark cloudy days for us.

But there is a silver lining in this thinking.

Without reading a book, Life has also taught me that behind those dark clouds, there is ALWAYS still a blue sky and sunshine waiting on me, and waiting for the clouds to go away to shine for me again. And that profound knowledge gives me hope to face a cloudy day.

Bumpity , Bump, bump.

If we are going to assume there is a GOD figure then here is my take on it, prepare for some interweaving of other fields into this. So the universe started as an infinitely small point and expanded, and theoretically expanded in an algorithmic pattern, indefinitely reiterating itself until we find us floating on a ball in space. Everything from the firing of our neurons, to the interactions between the fundamental particles is predetermined by the big bang algorithm. Now our heaven and hell as previously mentioned are right here now, we are constantly reminded of these atrocities we have committed and the like. When death comes and we experience a NDE we go through a massive trip, so severe time seems to falls still, everything you have ever thought, seen, felt, heard, will be experienced in an instant that never seems to end. When you reach this NDE, your body does everything it knows how at once in order to stay alive, so first you adrenal glands kick in and pump epinephrine and adrenaline in huge quantities into your blood stream, then your body will release all kinds of endogenous opiates, tryptamines, and any other mind altering, and life giving substance, well if this does work out for your body and the event has left you dead. Well our minds work at a 10hz processing speed for us to experience a reality. That means 10 times per second your mind checks in and makes sure it knows what is up. When this starts to slow to a 1Hz-.1Hz or even to a wavelength that doesn't repeat itself for over 10 lightyears. How are we certain that these waveforms aren't the inherent properties of conciousness, a wave-particle that has not been discovered, and holds no value. But never the less my postulation for this deeply troubling question, is that if this is an algorithmic reiteration, like a fractal, then what exactly is trying to define itself. It is perceivable that the GOD figure in an effort to define ITself, created an innumerable amount of universe with different algorithmic function and ended up with an innumerable amount of free thinking creatures that in effect cannot define themselves. A fractal in itself.

Whew, thats my piece if any one wants to mull it over.

Peace

My Higher Power is All Powerful

Must I understand all of my Higher Power's power before I can believe in some of it?

I vote No.

Very few people other than physicists can explain details of why electricity is.

Woodstock.Hippie said:

My Higher Power is All Powerful

Do I understand all of my Higher Power's power?

No.

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I do not understand the microwave, but I sure use it everyday.

And I surely do not understand the TV Remote and how it works. But I surely use it everynight.
And do I understand God's Grace and Love?
No, but I sure lean on it, trust in it and depend on it.

Yeah, economics, philosophy, politics but scientific advancement is evolved from God. An understanding of how the world came to be, works, and the path it will follow.

Peace

Woodstock.Hippie said:

My Higher Power is All Powerful

Must I understand all of my Higher Power's power before I can believe in some of it?

I vote No.

Very few people other than physicists can explain details of why electricity is.

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True but electricity doesn't contradict itself, nor does it claim to be something that its not. If this god was perfect and truly submitted characteristics of being perfect with no question then I wouldnt need to undertstand it... because it is perfect. But this clearly is NOT perfect so its questioned.

Show me the perfect god and I'll show you the perfect leprechaun.

I’m pretty sure a perfect being has no thirst, no hunger, no itch, no intuition, no opinion, and no need or desire to build.

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Sounds like the perfect being is non-existence.

You might actually have something there.

The perfect god is no god at all.

is populated with imperfects, eh?

Shut Up And Vote

morgentaler said:

Show me the perfect god and I'll show you the perfect leprechaun.


Sounds like the perfect being is non-existence.

You might actually have something there.

The perfect god is no god at all.

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I think the problem you are finding is with the word 'perfect': it is absolutely meaningless. And your entire post is based on your logic fighting this meaningless concept. Nothing in the universe is 'perfect'. Perfect doesn't exist.

The perfect wife, the perfect car, the perfect job. The definition is transitory. The closest you can comprehend this concept is to substitute the word perfect for "best". The best woman; given your needs. The best car; given your needs. You see?

And then to try to imagine a 'perfect' god? This is one of the biggest contradictions in the god concept. How can a perfect god create imperfect beings? Or better yet, why? The solution is to throw out the word perfect. It doesn't apply. Maybe in Greek or Latin there is a better word. English is notoriously limited. But essentially, all religious people claim their god to have the quality of perfection. This is to be expected.

A believer's God can have all the powers and qualities they can imagine: because he's entirely in their imagination.

Can God be a bunch of imperfect systems operating independently yet coherently?

Shut Up And Vote.

Woodstock.Hippie said:

Can God be a bunch of imperfect systems operating independently yet coherently?

Shut Up And Vote.

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Well how I see it god is only the labeling of the first instance when two or more components of nature combined to make everything (space/time) The argument in its smallest form is if those forces were pushed by a conceptual "hand of god" or if the molecules/atoms/ and chemical structure caused it to happen naturally.

I of course feel that there was no helping hand by a god because what all the religions have god as now wouldn't be the same that energized that particle to start a universe.

If we wanted to make a religion that was accurate and respectful to the universes actual creation we would be worshiping "First Matter" or "the primeval atom" since god itself takes the credit away from the actual molecules that made these amazing events to happen.


The universe is continually getting larger and its contents getting further apart from each other, science has proven so much new information all the time about everything we surround ourselves with.

The medical advancements, the vitamins, the products that grow you hair if you lose it, enhance your sex life, make you stronger, make you healthier, live longer and MANY more that I dont feel I should explain since its common knowledge. Then after accepting and utilizing all these products that you would not know how to do/make without common science and technology, those same people choose to disagree with one whole side of science.

What makes it funny is that people whom are religious, practice that same fault within their own religion by picking and choosing what rules they will abide by that best fit their life. If they truly followed there would be no sex before marriage. (imagine that lol)


EDIT: my family is religious, how I explain my thoughts to them after much of a conversation is I believe that the atoms/particles moved and expanded to create the universe. What religious people believe is the same but they label the atoms/particles as God. Both as the reason why those particles exist and the cause of their movement to create the universe. I feel that something already exists (particles of space) why create something else to get the credit?

The dead sea scrolls NEVER mention anything of Jesus.

Not surprising since he didn't exist.