The Ultimate Growing Competition

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H.A.F.

H.A.F.

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Kushash said:
Hang in there!
...
Read a bunch of these links:
https://www.google.com/search?ei=wcPeXL27HoPm-gTttJzADA&q=synthetic+vs+organic+fertilizers+"edu"&oq=synthetic+vs+organic+fertilizers+"edu"&gs_l=psy-ab.12..0i13.1362.6864..8854...0.0..0.135.611.4j2......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i22i30j33i22i29i30j33i160.iTOXQMMHJdk

If you want to continue learning more buy "Teaming With Microbes" a well written book for learning about soil.

Your bacteria are likely very unhealthy at this point and there is not much you can do other than finish the grow the way your running it. In the future the best thing you can learn if you stay with soil as a medium is how do I help my bacteria become super athletes.
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beware - posting again :cool:
Thanks, and believe it or not I'm the most laid back guy you'll meet. When I started, I freaked out over a leaf issue, then probably did more harm than good trying to fix it. If you have noticed (or not) my other non competition plants are having little or no issues. This grow was to find a nute that best matches how I grow, rather than finding a new way to grow. I just like dirt. So investigations into coco or whatnot won't happen

But I have already shifted to 'microbe' -ish stuff (soils that have junk in it, extra microbe additives) which coincidentally are in the FF Trio plant that is doing best in the grow. After settling on a feeding system, This is an excellent thing to fine tune. I definitely know very little about them but that they are good :)

I am leaning towards sticking with the ff original trio and just dialing that in. I am not big on brands, and have no issue replacing parts of their system with a similar generic replacement.​

Another thing I was kind of testing was how the 'clear' (no sediment) feeding lines designed for hydro would work in soil. I got this idea after using the FF Gringo Rasta soil schedule with good results. It was clear at feeding, did better, the competition happened, I kind of went with it. The DG nutes and the GH are the same. I think the 2 gallon pots and how they mess with a feeding schedule if probably the main issue on all.
 
H.A.F.

H.A.F.

Well-Known Member
And as far as being completely organic, that isn't really a concern for me unless it just works better. I want easy, reliable, and easily adjusted plant to plant, strain to strain. Watching BP's 1st episode I already have the FF Fruit and flower on my shopping list. :)

But I have had great results with the FF crystals (Beastie-bloomz et.al.) and I don't care if they are "organic" as long as they work.

But if it's as simple as picking a few things to leave out, and replacing them with something better, I'm all for it.
 
J.James

J.James

Well-Known Member
H.A.F. said:
beware - posting again :cool:
Thanks, and believe it or not I'm the most laid back guy you'll meet. When I started, I freaked out over a leaf issue, then probably did more harm than good trying to fix it. If you have noticed (or not) my other non competition plants are having little or no issues. This grow was to find a nute that best matches how I grow, rather than finding a new way to grow. I just like dirt. So investigations into coco or whatnot won't happen

But I have already shifted to 'microbe' -ish stuff (soils that have junk in it, extra microbe additives) which coincidentally are in the FF Trio plant that is doing best in the grow. After settling on a feeding system, This is an excellent thing to fine tune. I definitely know very little about them but that they are good :)

I am leaning towards sticking with the ff original trio and just dialing that in. I am not big on brands, and have no issue replacing parts of their system with a similar generic replacement.​

Another thing I was kind of testing was how the 'clear' (no sediment) feeding lines designed for hydro would work in soil. I got this idea after using the FF Gringo Rasta soil schedule with good results. It was clear at feeding, did better, the competition happened, I kind of went with it. The DG nutes and the GH are the same. I think the 2 gallon pots and how they mess with a feeding schedule if probably the main issue on all.
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Synthetic salts have a negative impact on your rhizosphere. "Albrecht's Foundation Concepts, Vol. 1" Is also a very good read I'd like to add.
 
H.A.F.

H.A.F.

Well-Known Member
J.James said:
Synthetic salts have a negative impact on your rhizosphere. "Albrecht's Foundation Concepts, Vol. 1" Is also a very good read I'd like to add.
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But these salts are also (at least initially) beneficial to the plant too right? Is this the main reason for the "feed then water" recommendation of most nute lines? Not questioning what you are saying, just trying to grasp the cliff's notes version between now and when I have to feed my 2 youngsters.

Here's a question - and it won't affect what I am doing with the competition plants so feel free to show your expertise.
If you had the entire line of fox farms nutes and additives to choose from and set up your feeding schedule - which would you leave out?
 
H.A.F.

H.A.F.

Well-Known Member
In other words, I don't have time to read, buy, set up, etc. whatever is explained in these books in the next few days.
 
J.James

J.James

Well-Known Member
H.A.F. said:
But these salts are also (at least initially) beneficial to the plant too right? Is this the main reason for the "feed then water" recommendation of most nute lines? Not questioning what you are saying, just trying to grasp the cliff's notes version between now and when I have to feed my 2 youngsters.

Here's a question - and it won't affect what I am doing with the competition plants so feel free to show your expertise.
If you had the entire line of fox farms nutes and additives to choose from and set up your feeding schedule - which would you leave out?
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Everything except Big Bloom, Big bloom is basically liquid worm poop with a hint of bat guano if I remember correctly. I used the entire Fox Farm lineup for years, they are great products for people who are learning to grow. FFOF soil is and always will have a cult following, Its a great base product full of nutrients and is why most people cut it by 1/3 to 1/2 with a happy frog or pro-mix.

Edit - The product that does the most damage to the soil life is Saponin, What you are experiencing now with your other plant is a result of Saponin in my opinion. That and it acts as a wetting agent so your pots got super saturated and are starving for oxygen.
 
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H.A.F.

H.A.F.

Well-Known Member
J.James said:
Everything except Big Bloom, Big bloom is basically liquid worm poop with a hint of bat guano if I remember correctly. I used the entire Fox Farm lineup for years, they are great products for people who are learning to grow. FFOF soil is and always will have a cult following, Its a great base product full of nutrients and is why most people cut it by 1/3 to 1/2 with a happy frog or pro-mix.
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Yes - I ditched the FFOF in favor of a Happy Frog and Lucky Dog mix. Both are listed with a shopping list of microbes and amoebas and shit, so I am just defeating that with some of the nutes?

And the liquid worm poop is actually one without the bad salts, right? :-? If that's the case, is there any redeeming quality in their new Big Bloom 'hydroponic'?
 
J.James

J.James

Well-Known Member
H.A.F. said:
Yes - I ditched the FFOF in favor of a Happy Frog and Lucky Dog mix. Both are listed with a shopping list of microbes and amoebas and shit, so I am just defeating that with some of the nutes?

And the liquid worm poop is actually one without the bad salts, right? :-?
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Yes, big bloom is the one without salts. No, you are not defeating the purpose of having the microbes but the salts in the liquid fertilizers will restrict the role they play in your rhizosphere. You need to understand that liquid fertilizer directly feed your plants, but in doing so deposits things into your soil (Salts). You flush the plants because at some point there will be a toxic buildup of these salts. When you do this a large amount of the nutrients (synthetic and natural) are leached out with the salts. Then we are told to add back to the medium a (Normal level) of nutrients. Stop and think about this cycle for a moment. After your grow is over and you harvest your plants, What do you do with the medium left in the pot? What is it worth? And why?
 
H.A.F.

H.A.F.

Well-Known Member
J.James said:
Yes, big bloom is the one without salts. No, you are not defeating the purpose of having the microbes but the salts in the liquid fertilizers will restrict the role they play in your rhizosphere. You need to understand that liquid fertilizer directly feed your plants, but in doing so deposits things into your soil (Salts). You flush the plants because at some point there will be a toxic buildup of these salts. When you do this a large amount of the nutrients (synthetic and natural) are leached out with the salts. Then we are told to add back to the medium a (Normal level) of nutrients. Stop and think about this cycle for a moment. After your grow is over and you harvest your plants, What do you do with the medium left in the pot? What is it worth? And why?
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It gets tomatoes, peppers, etc. I have been hesitant to re-use the soil for another grow.
 
H.A.F.

H.A.F.

Well-Known Member
J.James said:
What are you hesitant about?
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Excess salts, soil loaded with bloom specific nutes rather than veg-specific. Just that stuff. I can see that having a microbe-based system would eliminate most of that worry, but it never goes to waste. I am topping off my tomato pots with the soil from the recent harvest - and all of them were started in 'used' soil
 
J.James

J.James

Well-Known Member
H.A.F. said:
Excess salts, soil loaded with bloom specific nutes rather than veg-specific. Just that stuff. I can see that having a microbe-based system would eliminate most of that worry, but it never goes to waste. I am topping off my tomato pots with the soil from the recent harvest - and all of them were started in 'used' soil
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​
The "organic way" is to build a compost based on the plants that is high in nutrient content and to utilize organic amendments that work in harmony with the plant and the soil. Combine premium compost materials with diverse mineral inputs and utilize biology along with science.

We want diversity and we want it all in the soil. The nutrients aren't immediately available in the organic system, we will rely on the biology of the soil to naturally produce nutrients for our plants based on it's growing needs.
The soil food web is the cornerstone to cultivating plants in a Living Organic Soil System. The soil life is active and healthy and helping to make these nutrients available, and the plants growing on this Living Organic Soil have free-choice of any nutrient they want, in balance, a balance designed by intelligent science and observation. Soil Built this way only gets better, with each plant cycle, we add more nutrients and more life!

Truth is the issue most people have with organics and a Living Soil System is this - It doesn't come in a bottle. ​
 
J.James

J.James

Well-Known Member
homebrewer said:
https://www.gardenmyths.com/does-fertilizer-kill-soil-bacteria/
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Synthetic salts have a negative impact on your rhizosphere.
Explanation - When the salt concentrations in the soil are higher than inside the root cells, the soil will draw water from the root, and the plant will wilt and die. This is the basic way in which salinization affects plant production. The damaging effects of salt on plants are caused not only by osmotic forces but also by toxic levels of sodium and chloride.

Edit - I am very careful in how I word salt related conversations because bacteria and fungus don't care where the stuff they eat comes from, They just want to eat. Most studies show an increase in both populations of microbial life in soil when synthetic nutrients are used.

Edit #2 - Good article, I like how it talked about ion exchange and how salts break down, Makes you really think about it. Thank you homebrewer for the link
 
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homebrewer

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
J.James said:
Synthetic salts have a negative impact on your rhizosphere.
Explanation - When the salt concentrations in the soil are higher than inside the root cells, the soil will draw water from the root, and the plant will wilt and die. This is the basic way in which salinization affects plant production. The damaging effects of salt on plants are caused not only by osmotic forces but also by toxic levels of sodium and chloride.

Edit - I am very careful in how I word salt related conversations because bacteria and fungus don't care where the stuff they eat comes from, They just want to eat. Most studies show an increase in both populations of microbial life in soil when synthetic nutrients are used.
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What you're referring to above is a salinity issue which is otherwise known as operator error. That's a different thing than saying 'salts have a negative impact on you rhizosphere'. Salts actually have a positive impact on the rhizosphere when used correctly.

https://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ja.2010.102.110&org=11
 
J.James

J.James

Well-Known Member
homebrewer said:
What you're referring to above is a salinity issue which is otherwise known as operator error. That's a different thing than saying 'salts have a negative impact on you rhizosphere'. Salts actually have a positive impact on the rhizosphere when used correctly.

https://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ja.2010.102.110&org=11
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I think if you have all the Foxfarm Bottled Nutrients and follow their feeding chart you will have a salinity issue unless you flush with Saponins or a crap ton of water. I guess you could call that operator error for not knowing any better but would have a negative impact on you rhizosphere for sure.

dstroy said:
NaCl (sodium chloride) is table salt.

There isn't any NaCl in any appreciable amount in the fertilizer that I use. I just check the guaranteed analysis before I use something.
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Here is Foxfarm Grow Big
Ingredients: Ammonium sulfate, ammonium phosphate, urea, blood meal, potassium nitrate, potassium sulfate, earthworm castings, Norwegian kelp, iron EDTA, zinc EDTA, manganese EDTA, copper EDTA, chelating agent, disodium ethylenediamine tetra acetate (EDTA), sodium borate and sodium molybdate.


INORGANIC SALTS
These are simple mineral compounds such as sulfates or chlorides. Plants are accustomed
to dealing with minerals in this form but don't always do a good job of controlling
absorption. Although mineral absorption increases when there is a mineral shortage, and
decreases when mineral levels are high, the plants mineral transport system often misregulates
minerals that share the same transport channels. For example, when copper and
zinc salts are consumed together, they compete with each other for transport into the plant.
An excess of zinc can, therefore, cause a deficiency of copper. If ones purpose in using
mineral fertilizers are to force the plant to use more minerals than it normally would, the
inorganic salts would be a poor choice. The rates of application for inorganic salts can be
quite high and the frequency of application is also frequent, therefore making the total cost
of inputs quite high over the growing season.


EDTA
EDTA or ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid is a novel molecule used for
complexing minerals. EDTA is a synthetic chelating agent which binds
to an element and is used in cosmetics, medicine, and plant nutrition. It
is an agent which can not be utilized by the plant (never breaks down)
and binds to minerals such as Calcium very tightly and makes the
mineral less available once inside the plant. The complexed molecule is
large and enters mainly from the underside of the leaf. Too much EDTA is
toxic to plants. EDTA is best used in pHs below 7.
 
J.James

J.James

Well-Known Member
homebrewer said:
What you're referring to above is a salinity issue which is otherwise known as operator error. That's a different thing than saying 'salts have a negative impact on you rhizosphere'. Salts actually have a positive impact on the rhizosphere when used correctly.

https://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ja.2010.102.110&org=11
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When I read this again, you are right my friend, I should have worded it differently. Salts do have a positive impact on the rhizosphere when used correctly but most nutrient companies push consumers so close to the limits that the soil environment becomes unbalanced and unstable
 
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