This Is Why I Believe.
- Thread starter IregAt420
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Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
Wait, what? That's not what you said... this is what you said;
"Sorry bud, but religious experience has been measured in EEG scans as well. Electrochemical reactions in the brain are no more proof of the existence of love than they are proof of the existence of gods."
I'm not sure how someone would figure out how it's a "religious experience" (which by my definition would be represented by emotion) or just emotion. That's what I've been saying since the beginning, that there's no way to tell. To the person having the experience, yeah, it might be what they would consider "religious", but the machine wouldn't be able to tell that, all it would pick up is the spike in emotion.
Since we're on the same page about that now, let's move on.
Everybody has an agenda. The Christian agenda doesn't pass the equal rights test.
Atheists have zero power in Washington, don't kid yourself.
Why does this matter? I touch on this pretty often too with believers, how is it not obvious to you guys? We (as far as I know, who knows, maybe I'm wrong about this, in which case I think you'd have a pretty valid point, and I'd admit I made an ass out of myself) live in the United States. I live in California, it's regarded as pretty secular, if not the most secular state in the union and still, 90% of the people in my own personal life are CHRISTIAN. Not MUSLIM, not JEWISH, CHRISTIAN. So when I address religious people or religious questions, in my mind, much like guessing on a test, I go with what's the most likely answer, in this case, the default is usually Christian. If I walked around talking about Islam, what do you think would happen? 90% of the people WOULD AGREE WITH ME that it's nuts. Those same people don't see the flaws in Christianity, because that's what they believe. That's where I come in
Don't get me wrong, I think all of them are equally as incorrect, it's just that we live amongst a sea of Christians that don't like to be told they're wrong.
No, one of the core tenets of Christianity is in one form or another "accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and ask for forgiveness for your sins". Has nothing to do with "divine energy". I've never heard any Christian talk about a "divine energy". Just like MP said, it does sound a lot like new age type language.
I'm curious, what are your actual beliefs karri0n?
Arguing adamantly for reason and logic is not "atheist fundamentalism".
It's seriously bullshit how people say that type of stuff about what Dawkins does. People like him, and me, and MP, are sitting here saying "lets find the collective truth together, here are our tools, lets test shit, experiment, learn, test again, observe, research, we can do it if we work together", while religious people say "we already have the answers, trust us, we're absolutely positive this is the way existence works, there's no need for science, we already have the answers, that stuff isn't right, it's just there to confuse you and test your faith"...
Science and education has been oppressed by religion for centuries. I'm only speaking for myself, but I know Dawkins feels the same way, but fuck that, I'm done with that shit. You want to tell me I'm wrong, OK that's fine, that's fuckin' GREAT actually, I LOVE being proved wrong, but that's the thing, you have to fuckin' PROVE it. If you don't come with proof, don't come at all, because that's what I'm interested in. And if you don't know the definition of proof, go learn it first because he said she said anecdotal stories aren't proof of anything. A 2,000 year old book isn't proof of anything. A shroud from the middle ages isn't proof of anything.
Proof is the fused gene in our genetic code that says we share a common ancestor with great apes. Proof is DNA, it's vestigial organs, it's the genetic code to make teeth in chickens. That is proof.
karri0n
Well-Known Member
The Atheist agenda doesn't promote Equal Rights either. Children are disallowed from praying privately in school(though special exceptions are made for muslim children), people putting up religious symbols on their own property are sued to remove it because someone might see it. It's absolute BS to claim that the atheist movement has no political power. Your assertion of Equal rights is correct in that atheists seem to be fond of all religions having equal right to be oppressed(except Islam, of course, they are special.)
Why does this matter? I touch on this pretty often too with believers, how is it not obvious to you guys? We (as far as I know, who knows, maybe I'm wrong about this, in which case I think you'd have a pretty valid point, and I'd admit I made an ass out of myself) live in the United States. I live in California, it's regarded as pretty secular, if not the most secular state in the union and still, 90% of the people in my own personal life are CHRISTIAN. Not MUSLIM, not JEWISH, CHRISTIAN. So when I address religious people or religious questions, in my mind, much like guessing on a test, I go with what's the most likely answer, in this case, the default is usually Christian. If I walked around talking about Islam, what do you think would happen? 90% of the people WOULD AGREE WITH ME that it's nuts. Those same people don't see the flaws in Christianity, because that's what they believe. That's where I come in
Don't get me wrong, I think all of them are equally as incorrect, it's just that we live amongst a sea of Christians that don't like to be told they're wrong.
No, I don't think so. Especially in CA, if you went around saying a bunch of things about Islam, you'd get quite a few people ostracizing you and calling you a bigot.
Closer, but you still aren't at the core. Accept Jesus as your lord and Savior and absolve your sins, yes. However, the concept of "sin" is one that was made up by people in power to control the masses. This is very far from the spiritual core of the religion. What is it that Jesus really wanted to teach? Unconditional love for yourself and fellow man. What is it that good priests and nuns teach? Connection with Jesus, who is, in this faith, the personification of divinity and unconditional love.
As far as my own beliefs, that's difficult to quantify. A vastly broad term for my spiritual practice is Pagan. I value learning as much about religion and spirituality as possible, from as many diverse sources as possible. I look at the every day world and strive to see the divinity in everything from the world around me to the choices that people make. From outside I'm sure you could view me as "new age", but of the people I know I'm one of the first to point out when someone is blathering on about some ridiculous new age crap. As I've pointed out previously, I think modern science has a whole lot of good in it in regards to the parallels we can see in science and spirituality. I value learning above most anything else in spiritual practice, I think of family to be extremely important, and I tend to follow a basic code of morality including truth, honor, fair treatment of others, and respect for the natural world.
I hate the "logic and reason" BS that atheists throw out there. These people are pushing something that hasn't been proven, just as the religious folks are doing. These tag lines are as ridiculous as "pro choice", "pro life", or "patriot act". Nobody is anti life, nobody is anti choice, and there's nothing patriotic about the latter. Please refrain from use of propaganda tag lines in the future.
Claiming with absolute certainty that your position is correct to the point that there can be no truth in any other position is fundamentalism. If Dawkins' and other Atheists' message were truly "Hey let's learn, guys!" and not "God is bullshit!", I wouldn't have a problem. This isn't the case, though. The stance that Dawkins and Bill Maher take is one that claims they can KNOW that there are no gods, but are incapable of providing proof beyond what basically boils down to anecdotal evidence. You're kidding yourself if you think all the "research" being done is with a blank slate, and not with a preconceived nod towards an atheistic viewpoint
Evolution isn't really related in this discussion. I have no doubt of the process of evolution or natural selection, but even it hasn't been proven absolute. Even if evolution were proven, the only thing that shows is the obviously wrong notion within Christianity regarding the age of the planet.
I'm very much interested in your "proof" as well. Prove the nonexistence of Gods. Come with proof or don't come at all. My position is already proven, as Gods as you know them exist as concepts created by man - personifications made to understand something that really can't be conceived of by our minds - especially to more primitive peoples. If you know of them, if they've been named, if they have attributes attributed to them, they exist.
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
This whole post is disingenuous and you know it. Children aren't allowed to pray in public schools? Bullshit. That propaganda has been pushed from the religious right since they removed teacher led MANDATORY prayer in public schools in 1962. Kids can pray all they want privately, they just don't.
People are sued for putting up religious symbols on their own property? That sounds like bullshit too. I would have a problem with that, and I'm a fuckin' atheist. Prove your statement, give me one source, please.
What's the atheist lobby in DC called? You know, like how they have
the ACLA - http://www.americancla.org/acla_home_page.html
the CCA - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Coalition_of_America
the CRF - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_for_Religious_Freedom
the TVC - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Coalition_for_Traditional_Values
or the MM - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority
Not where I live. Most people around here believe Christianity is right, so that pretty much rules out Islam.
You point out later in this post how people like Dawkins approach science, but look at what you just admitted to. You approach the world and "strive to see divinity in everything". Conflict of interest in seeking truth much? Be honest with yourself man.
Christianity doesn't tell the truth, it doesn't promote fair treatment of others and it doesn't respect the natural world. This life is a stepping stone for the next one.
What are atheists pushing that hasn't been proven?
No atheist I know has ever said "No God exists", ever, including Dawkins. The most common atheistic position to take is "I don't know if a god exists". If someone told me "God is bullshit!" I would say "you're probably right, but how do you know?". There is no such thing as absolute certainty in science. Absolute certainty is for the religious. Dawkins is one of the worlds leading scientists, he teaches Biology at Cambridge for Christs sake, he knows he cannot know for sure if there is a god, his position is it's irrelevant to our lives one way or the other.
The data and research collected will always point towards an atheistic viewpoint because of Occams razor, not because science is trying to "disprove God" (which is impossible)...
Explain to me what you mean when you say "proven absolute" because like I said before, nothing in science is absolute. This is a clear indication you're looking at it the wrong way. Evolution is proven to the highest degree of provability in science, the theory will not get any stronger than it is right now.
Another clear indication you're approaching the whole thing incorrectly. You asking me to "disprove God" is like me asking you to disprove the invisible fire breathing dragon in my garage. So go ahead, prove the "nonexistence" of my invisible fire breathing dragon.
You can't disprove a negative. You have to prove god exists before I can disprove it. There's zero proof of any god because they all require faith to believe.
Existing in reality and existing as a concept in the mind are two completely different things.
karri0n
Well-Known Member
The ACLU has filed MANY lawsuits under the guise of "separation of church and state" that seek to do nothing more than boot things they see as christian out of peoples' lives(when the people involved really didn't give a hoot if there was a cross on something or not), and has more resources than any of the lobbies you mentioned, but if you want something that explicitly labels itself as atheist, we have a couple here:
Secular Coalition for America: http://www.secular.org
American Atheists, Inc., which was responsible for a lawsuit mandating the removal of 12 memorials for fallen Utah highway patrol officers, because the memorials had crosses on them.
Ok you got me here - I suppose a better word than "strive to" is I do see the divinity within everything - because it's there. That doesn't change the perception - 2 + 2 does not equal 5 just because I might view every day life to be more sacred than you do.
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Orthodox, power-hungry, Church, inc. doesn't. You are very right about that and I'll stand beside you all day regarding the fallacies and evils of the Christian establishment, but once again you're reverting to a "christian or nothing" mindset.
Jesus' message itself, however, does promote these. He didn't necessarily want people to "go green", as everything on this earth was "put here for us", but a general respect for the gifts from god as well as your fellow man was expected.
This is just outright incorrect. What you're talking about is Agnosticism. I was going to address this earlier because I had a feeling you thought atheism meant agnosticism. It is for this reason that before very recently, Atheist was a derogatory term. Now that it's hipster to be an atheist, people start calling themselves that, but when questioned, state this "we can't know" stuff, which is agnosticism. Agnosticism is certainly an intelligent position to take if you don't have a compelling reason to believe, and I have no problem whatsoever with this stance. The fact that you are even taking part in this discussion, however, tells me you are more atheist than agnostic. Authoring a book titled "The God Delusion" is certainly close enough to "no god exists" as well, by my standards. Bill Maher has also said things remarkably close to "no god exists" in exact verbiage.
It's not going to get any stronger than it is right now? So we're going to halt all paleontological research and exploration? Give me break. The theory of evolution is strong but discovery is not going to stop any time soon. We find new discoveries in the fossil record every day, and to this day we haven't found the "missing link" to modern humans. I'm not going to argue about evolution because it's been done already in this thread, and like I said, It's stupid to doubt it with all of the evidence we have. I did just remember something that throws a pretty big wrench in the current timeline that we have regarding the evolution of modern humans, though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hueyatlaco
Proving or disproving something that isn't tangible isn't going to happen with the current instrumentation. I was demonstrating a point that it currently can't be disproven or proven.
Actually, this is an indication that you are approaching the whole thing incorrectly. Physical intangibility is not the same as nonexistence. Define "reality". If you're talking purely about something physical, then I would think the fact that bodies don't levitate out of the ground after burial has already completely debunked any idea of Heaven. I can speak with my gods. I can glean insights from them that I could not do for myself. I can see, hear, feel, smell, and presumably taste them. I'm not the only person who does this. If I want to speak to a specific deity, and they are willing to speak with me, I can, and that deity has the same attributes that someone else would see when speaking to them. MY reality exists not just in the physical, but in my thoughts, emotions, and spiritual impressions as well.
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
karri0n, look.. Church and state should always be separate, even if you are religious. Our forefathers got that one right, a short walk through history will confirm that. This is something we'd have to talk about on a case by case basis, and I hope you believe me this isn't a cop out, I just don't have time for that, so, moving on...
But one point I'd like to make, and I don't see any way someone could deny this, is that Christians have the most political influence in Washington today. By far.
That's an absolute statement. You can't know that, this is what you believe.
I'm an agnostic atheist, in that I don't know if any gods exist, as I've explained before, I can't travel the universe searching and turning over every rock, so I can't possibly make such an absolute statement with any kind of certainty, and I also believe that no gods do in fact exist because they don't make any logical sense in my mind. The problems that come along with certainty, absolute knowledge, absolute justice, pretty much all of any gods characteristics are too paradoxical to answer. People say we just can't or aren't supposed to understand the way God works, I say that's bullshit. What, we can think up all the way to the point of asking the question, but we just can't ever answer it? Simply retarded from any standpoint.
It's not "hipster" to be atheist. It's still pretty taboo actually, on par with being homosexual. I still get gasps when I reveal I'm an atheist, even to friends.
Agnosticism is the only honest position to take. My atheism stems from thoughts past agnosticism.
First it was "God is Bullshit!!" - then you changed it to "no gods exist" - when it's always been "The God Delusion", which is not the same as saying "no gods exist". Have you read it? I have. Dawkins makes the case for why people believe in gods, he's a biologist, not a theologian.
Dawkins approach to science and education is no different than any science teacher in school growing up. It's just that people are too comfortable with their beliefs that they can't stand to hear the truth of reality that tells them their beliefs are not consistent with what we observe. When we're kids, we have the teacher to tell us what's right and wrong, and most of us don't argue, because we know the science teacher is a hell of a lot smarter than we are, I just don't get why some adults with no formal training in biology or anything past a high school science education think they know more than the worlds leading expert on biological studies. People who don't recognize that as a serious problem are kidding themselves. This attitude commits an incredible injustice to the future generations of people on this planet, not to mention all the people who are already here.
Fairy tales fuck up the planet, and people like Dawkins, me, MP, Harris, Hitchens, etc. have had enough of it.
What I meant by that was that the level of acceptance among the public will not get any stronger than it is right now. We'll discover more fossils, more links, but the same people who oppose the theory of evolution right now will use the exact same unscientific techniques to "debunk" whatever we find that goes against their beliefs. We could find a clear, OBVIOUS fossil link from modern apes and humans to a common ancestor, which we have, dozens of times, and they'd still deny it, just like they have, doezens of times.
There is no such thing as a "missing link" between modern humans and great apes. Let me explain why;
1. 1910 - A....B.....C.....D....E.....F
2. 1950 - A...B.....b....C....D.....E.....F
3. 2003 - A....a.....B.....b....C....D.....e.....E....F
In this example, take a look at line 1. A,B,C,D,E,F are fossils that have been discovered up until 1910
Now, line 2 takes us 40 years in the future, and by 1950, take a look, we've discovered a new fossil to add to the list, represented by "b"
Continuing on, line 3 jumps another 53 years into the future all the way to 2003, and two more fossils have been discovered, represented by "a" and "e"
OK, so do you see what happens every time we discover a new fossil? Every single time we discover a "missing link" (which every single fossil, and in fact every single living organism IS) it creates two more gaps that need to be filled. A......B -> A.....a......B - one gap when two fossils are known, two gaps when three fossils are known, four gaps when five fossils are known, and on and on and on... the more we find, the more there are to find as every living thing is transitional to the next.
I hope that cleared it up.
Objective reality is not the same as your subjective interpretation of it. Want proof? If I believe it's 5pm when it's actually 12am, it doesn't change the FACT that it's 12am. That is objective truth. There are many other objective truths, truth that doesn't depend on whether or not you or I believe it.
You think you can speak with your gods. If that's not the case and you actually can, then why not ask things like "what is the meaning of life?" or "how did we get here?" and post up some godly responses?
crackerboy
Active Member
I am not responding to any one post, but rather to several statements that attempted to characterize all Christians and their beliefs. First of all not all Christians think that science is just a way that the devil try's to confuse us. Nor do all Christians believe that the earth is 6000 years old. I am a Christian and a science major. My degree is in electrical engineering and required two calculus based physics classes. I simply believe that what we call science is just another revelation given to us by God so that we may understand him. God is just revealing to us how he accomplished his work. Not all Christians believe that the Bible was intended to be a time line. I personally believe that if the Bible was to be used as a historical time line than it would have been put together that way. But when you read the Bible from front to back it does not tell the stories that way. God is eternal and so is time. Our simple concepts of time are irrelevant to God. Instead we should look at the purpose of the stories in the Bible. Christians and scientists alike believe in the big bang theory. Christians just believe that bang came from God. So quit putting all Christians into a category with the most extreme conservatives. Do more research and try to understand the different interpretations. It's as offensive as me saying all atheist must be gay because a few support gay rights or that I once knew an atheist that screwed sheep so all atheists are sheep fuckers. See my point?
goodeye2113
Well-Known Member
are you calling god a emotion?
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
There's a problem with your analogy in that atheists didn't create a book that claims that in order to be atheist you must fuck sheep. You can try to rationalize the bible all you want but the fact is that it is supposed to be an account of the history of a god and his preferred desert tribe and how he sent his literal son, who also is himself, to be sacrificed for the vicarious redemption of his followers. Try to soften it all you want but the people that are most anti-science are religious fundamentalists, be it Christian, Muslim or Jewish. Trying to come out and say, "but not AALLLL Christians are this way" ignores the main point and the reasons that many atheists get upset at Christians that influence science education and laws. I could care less if you have a kinder, gentler version of Christianity, Christine O'Donnell and others like her are the ones grabbing power. SHE believes in literal 6 day creation, SHE believes in an earth history of only 6-10,000 years, SHE wants to introduce special creation into the science curriculum of schools.
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
You illustrate another really common trait among believers. Most of the ones I know also do the same thing. They believe what they believe, usually the foundation is pretty similar as they've all been told the basic stories of Christianity and some have a vague idea of names, and when questioned about it, I usually get a response similar to "well, it's just what I believe.." and the conversation moves on to the right to believe whatever one wants, which they already know I'll agree with.
Anyway, all that brings me to a question for you.. If faith is a requirement for salvation, that is, not knowing for sure one way or the other that the religion you're following is the correct one, then why would God choose to reveal anything to humanity? Wouldn't that render existence on Earth meaningless?
If you believe what you say you do, that God uses science to reveal how he works so humanity can better understand him then how do you reconcile that with the concept of faith present in all the major religions?
Why can't people learn the moral lessons the Bible teaches without everything else?
Doesn't the fact that every time someone mentions the cult sect of the religion and everybody else immediately distances themselves from any of their crazy views mean anything to you?
Those crazy ones, the ones you guys all distance yourselves from... they're the ones who are actually following the religion. What it actually says. If you bothered to read it, you'd know that. When I talk about religion, those are the idiots I'm talking about. The Westboro Baptist people. The fanatics. The people who follow the shit word for word.
Passive Christianity makes up 99% of Christians. They don't pray regularly, they don't read the Bible, they don't know the names of the four Gospels... But they check the ''x'' next to Christian whenever applicable to feel the little tickle in the morality sector in their brain because they've been conditioned to feel that way.
Yes those people are idiots, yes they feed the fire that is fanatical Christianity, and yes they're completely fuckin' oblivious to it...
crackerboy
Active Member
We call those people legalistic. I'm not trying to soften anything up. I am just trying to get you to quit trying to make all Christians sound like extremest idiots that have no concept reality. I know several Christians that will talk physics with you all day. How is creation any less viable of an argument than any other? Its funny how no one has a problem with a school teaching Socrates or any other philosophy and just accept them, but when it comes to religion you just don't want to hear it. The reason you don't want to hear it is because it points out your flaws. It exposes you to yourself and you don't like what you see. So its just easier to ignore it.
crackerboy
Active Member
Yep, all of the above is why I always encourage people to read for them selves. The Bible was not written for one man to read and interpret it for everyone else. It was meant to be shared by all. The reason you get extremest is because a group of people sit and listen to this one persons corrupt version of the Bible. There is no doubt that man has used the Bible for personal gain. But man in general will do that with everything he touches.
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
You can't possibly believe that. Tell me why I wouldn't want to be exposed to my flaws? crackerboy, if I have a flaw, I want to know about it, you know why? So that I can fix it. Why would I want to carry around a flaw or a belief that I know isn't true?
When it comes to religion, it promotes inequality and divides people. All of them have an "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality.
karri0n
Well-Known Member
More generalizations. I don't think anyone is against my beliefs unless they specifically state such.
Swoopadedo
Member
This reminds me of a lecture from my first year of university in my psych class. The teacher asked, you can't see love how do we know it's there, to which I replied, "I wouldn't spend 5,000 dollars on a diamond ring if I didn't love that girl."
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
And again, you have a watered down version of Christianity, as far as I can tell.
Christians try to convert people to Christianity "you have to accept Jesus Christ and ask for forgiveness", a lot of them even do the door to door thing.
Muslims - nuff said.
Devout Jews wont marry outside Judaism - again, nuff said.
I can probably already tell where you're gonna go with this, so let me just stop you there...
Atheists promote science, education, and facts, we don't try to convert anyone like religions do.
karri0n
Well-Known Member
I'm now pretty sure you're either trolling or not reading the thread at all.
My faith bears no resemblance to Christianity - and I've stated multiple times in this thread that I'm not Christian.
Also,
Would you marry someone devoutly religious? "Nuff Said"
You've spent several days arguing with someone, trying to prove a point to them that their beliefs are wrong. You're very much taking a "with us or against us" stance.
All I'm stating is that any set of beliefs someone has can be valid. Very much the opposite of with us or against us.
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
You've been sitting here arguing from a Christian perspective the whole time..
Yes. Fail.
If I decided to get married at all that is. I wouldn't let personal beliefs get in the way of that. I would think she's wrong, but if I loved her, that wouldn't matter to me.
On the other hand, my last prospect at a relationship with a girl something similar happened, except the girl was devoutly religious and her words were "that's one of my red flags for you" [being an atheist]. So what's that tell you?
The difference being I'm not going to kill you for holding different beliefs, I don't think that's the moral thing to do, I also don't think someone should be tortured for eternity for holding different beliefs than me. That seems pretty much like the opposite of moral humane treatment...
Which was the point.
"Can be valid"...
Explain what you mean.
How can objective truths be subjectively interpreted by two different people to be true?
Ex. If you have a red ball in the middle of the room, and two people deciding what color it is, one picks blue and one picks red, they can't both be true. Just because one of them may believe it's blue doesn't make it blue. The objective truth is that the ball is red.
Similarly, how many different people have many different interpretations of God, just like you do, how could they all possibly be true? And yet all of them, each believer that I've ever met has assured me this is the truth.
mistaphuck
Well-Known Member
we can see atoms..
crackerboy
Active Member
Nobody wants to believe that they are a bad person. People say I am a good person. I don't hurt anyone. I do good things for people sometimes. And to the human standard that's all probably true. But God holds us to a higher standard and its hard for us to deal with. The more you read the Bible the more it will point out things in life that you know you are not doing that you know you should be. When I say you I also mean myself. Sometimes it seems impossible to keep all those commandments. Which it is impossible and thats why He sent Jesus. If it was not for Jesus Sacrificing himself for us than we would all be screwed.