ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
And what defined Martin as a bad guy?lol!
Yes, in a perfect world, that would have been the ideal outcome. And we all know how often the police catch bad guys in situations like these.
His skin tone perhaps?
trayvan martin
- Thread starter UncleBuck
- Start date
His skin tone perhaps?
doc111
Well-Known Member
Ok, "alleged bad guy". That better?
You just can't wait to pick apart some flaw in a person's post can ya?
doc111
Well-Known Member
..........answered in a previous post. Try and keep up.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Cui bono, guys? cn
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
Oh I think I have kept up pretty well..........answered in a previous post. Try and keep up.
This isnt the early 60s ya know
londonfog
Well-Known Member
on whose part..surely not the dead
doc111
Well-Known Member
lol! I was unaware of this!
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I'm asking, who would benefit from my speculation(s)? It strikes me as a zero-gain game within which I stand to only lose. cn
londonfog
Well-Known Member
oh sorry I thought you were saying who gains in the killing..lol
I see your point good neutral call..which is even more the reason why I want to hear what you have to say..How about we crown you King "Bearer" of Neutral Knowledge ... The KBNK
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
~grin~
My opinions in re this case are that the following items are established:
Zimmermann pursued Martin after being advised that it would be best if he did not do so. That saddles Z with a clear count of bad judgment imo.
Zimmermann shot Trayvon Martin dead.
Trayvon was unarmed.
A key witness is unavailable.
The following items are what i consider likely but not established.
Zimmermann pursued Trayvon and was pressing a confrontation.
He had absolutely no need to do so.
Testimonies are sparse, internally and externally inconsistent.
I suspect Z's head injuries to have been inconsequential, but to take it further I would have to trust the judgment of the treating individual (EMT?) at the crime scene. And that first bit of video did seem to show that Z ad a clean head. What to make of this? It's possible that a) M bopped Z's head on the ground, or that 2) Z bopped himself before the police arrived in order to back his account. I have no way of excluding either scenario.
The following are question marks to me.
Did Z corner M?
Did Z keep the gun concealed until the end?
What words were exchanged?
Who made the first aggressive move? (Likely Z in pressing the chase, but this is not established beyond doubt.)
Whose, and what was the second?
When things got physical, who engaged whom?
Who really screamed, and what?
It could break either way imo.
That Z would corner and attack M is the sentimentally appealing choice, but to me that is a good reason to redouble my caution.
That M would pre-emptively rush Z is also not to be excluded, but not to be assumed either.
The evidence and testimony i have seen do not allow any conclusions beyond the sentimental, based on our remote third-person read of the characters of the principals. While I accept that Z's is looking pretty damned bad, that should not influence the criminal case. That should be decided on proven actions, and info on those is far too thin for me to wear either camp's T-shirt quite yet.
Away from the criminal case, am I disgusted with Z's manifest lack of judgment? Oh hell yeah. Am i pissed that a young man died for no apparent reason? That too. Am I darkly amused by Z's thrashing when asked the hard questions? definitely. But those are not to point in the end. The trial will be interesting but it's far from open&shut, especially if Dershowitz takes a serious interest. I do not doubt his ability to shred the prosecution. cn
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
you become a bad guy when you stalk and kill innocent kids......had no idea taking an interest and getting involved in the safety and security of you neighborhood made you a "bad guy" either.
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
alleged bad guy? what was martin doing that made him so bad?Ok, "alleged bad guy". That better?
You just can't wait to pick apart some flaw in a person's post can ya?
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
the only thing i would exclude is zimm injuring himself to back his account, too many witnesses there too soon to be remotely possible in my judgment.~grin~
My opinions in re this case are that the following items are established:
Zimmermann pursued Martin after being advised that it would be best if he did not do so. That saddles Z with a clear count of bad judgment imo.
Zimmermann shot Trayvon Martin dead.
Trayvon was unarmed.
A key witness is unavailable.
The following items are what i consider likely but not established.
Zimmermann pursued Trayvon and was pressing a confrontation.
He had absolutely no need to do so.
Testimonies are sparse, internally and externally inconsistent.
I suspect Z's head injuries to have been inconsequential, but to take it further I would have to trust the judgment of the treating individual (EMT?) at the crime scene. And that first bit of video did seem to show that Z ad a clean head. What to make of this? It's possible that a) M bopped Z's head on the ground, or that 2) Z bopped himself before the police arrived in order to back his account. I have no way of excluding either scenario.
The following are question marks to me.
Did Z corner M?
Did Z keep the gun concealed until the end?
What words were exchanged?
Who made the first aggressive move? (Likely Z in pressing the chase, but this is not established beyond doubt.)
Whose, and what was the second?
When things got physical, who engaged whom?
Who really screamed, and what?
It could break either way imo.
That Z would corner and attack M is the sentimentally appealing choice, but to me that is a good reason to redouble my caution.
That M would pre-emptively rush Z is also not to be excluded, but not to be assumed either.
The evidence and testimony i have seen do not allow any conclusions beyond the sentimental, based on our remote third-person read of the characters of the principals. While I accept that Z's is looking pretty damned bad, that should not influence the criminal case. That should be decided on proven actions, and info on those is far too thin for me to wear either camp's T-shirt quite yet.
Away from the criminal case, am I disgusted with Z's manifest lack of judgment? Oh hell yeah. Am i pissed that a young man died for no apparent reason? That too. Am I darkly amused by Z's thrashing when asked the hard questions? definitely. But those are not to point in the end. The trial will be interesting but it's far from open&shut, especially if Dershowitz takes a serious interest. I do not doubt his ability to shred the prosecution. cn
the part that i really doubt is that zimm was crying for help. he said he was being suffocated, which would preclude crying for help. and the cries for help just sound too agonizing to me. he had to know everyone heard those cries for help, so he has every reason to claim them as his own.
my best guess at what happened is that martin got away, kept talking on the phone. zimm follows him, stops to conclude his call with dispatch, then goes looking for martin again. finds martin again, martin asks "why are you following me?", zimm responds with "what are you doing here?" and tries to detain martin. a small scuffle ensues with martin landing a blow or two (the single scrape on martin's knuckle pretty much rules out the 25-30 haymakers zimm claims happened). zimm, after taking a hit or two, reaches for his gun and holds martin at gunpoint. martin starts screaming for help, and perhaps even makes a play for the gun (or zimm, in a state of over zealous hyper alert mode perceives that to happen). shot is fired, then we all know the rest from there.
that's all consistent with the evidence, the only speculation is after "what are you doing here?" until the shot is fired, a 1 minute or so period.
from what i've read, self defense cases hinge heavily on the judgment and the credibility of the person defending. zimm has neither going for him. his judgment that night was WAAAAAAAY off. he never thought to identify himself given multiple chances to do so. he admits he kept looking for martin after the call to dispatch was over. he straddled the kid after putting a bullet straight through his heart thinking he was a threat still. not good judgment. his credibility is zero at this point, he has so many different and wildly varying accounts of what happened.
anyhoo, should be interesting to watch the trial. we'll need a lot of popcorn.
doc111
Well-Known Member
Up to the point where someone attacked someone else and Martin was shot, what was Zimmerma doing that made him so bad? You've got him painted as some really evil, creepy, worthless POS based on a few mistakes. I'm willing to bet it would be nearly as easy to demonize any one of us if someone was so inclined to paint us in a less than favorable light.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
Wrong I wouldnt be stupid enough to pretend to be a cop
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
by florida definition, stalking. also irresponsible behavior for a community watch leader, and downright betrayal of the higher standard of conduct expected from someone with a concealed carry.
other neighbors complained of zimmerman following them to their homes.
so doc, how many ex fiancees have restraining orders against you after you staked yourself outside their house, threw her down on the bed, and slapped her on the mouth? how many diversion programs have you had to complete for assaulting law enforcement officers? how many times have you followed someone in your car and confronted them to the point where they thought you were going to assault them because you thought someone spat at you? how many times have you thrown drunken women around while working a private security gig? how many of your friends would describe you as someone who is prone to "snap" and lose your cool completely? how many of your coworkers complained that you were being racist towards them to fit in with other coworkers? how many of your neighbors would say you believe in racist ideologies?
ya don't have to try hard to demonize zimm, him and his family are compulsive liars and zimm is a mentally unstable nut who gets himself way too involved.
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
a cop would have identified himself to the "suspect" and asked him what he was doing, he wouldn't have had several stare downs with the kid and then go chasing after him in the dark.
doc111
Well-Known Member
Try again! If he didn't portray himself to be a cop then he didn't really do anything wrong. Impersonating a police officer isn't one of the charges, soooooo.............
You may not agree with it, but neighborhood watches have existed for decades now, and are a viable deterrent to crime. I'm not going to pretend to know why Zimmerman volunteered for such a thankless job, but since I have a family and am a homeowner I'm guessing he was concerned about crime in his neighborhood, and instead of pissing and moaning about it, he decided to do something. Shocking, I know!
Citizens actually taking an interest and an active role in the well being of their neighborhoods and communities? That is SOOOOOOO 20th century!
doc111
Well-Known Member
Why are you trying to make this about me? It's not and I won't go there. I stand by my previous statement...........Most if not all of us could easily be painted in a negative light by someone with the inclination to do so.
doc111
Well-Known Member
Is stalking one of the charges? Forgive me, I've been busy and am not completely up to date on all of the listed charges.