Vertical yalll. Seriously Look

I would say vert is the most effiecient at using all the light, direct light no reflection
small scale example that ive always liked from a Czech forum
http://74.125.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=cs&u=http://grower.cz/forum/showthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D6799&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwww.grower.cz%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG&usg=ALkJrhgRiZQ_lf8__Ug_dT88KHNIvrQ6ng

What im saying is if you have a 12x12 growroom then you only pro have about half of that as bloom space. A quarter of it would be veg space and maybe the other quarter storage. So you have a 6x12 space suitable for two 1000 watt lights. the six by 12 space has an area of 72 sq ft.

Now imagine you seperate your 6x12 bloom space into two 6x6 spaces. You build an octagon of shelving 7 feet hight. Inside that octagon you will now have a wall area of 168 square ft.
Shelve the space out however you want but make sure that you fill up all the wallspace with foliage and you effectively turned a 36sq ft of growing canopy into 168 square ft of canopy. You also have another 6x6 space you can do the same thing with. Thats 336sq ft total, from a flat space of 72 sq ft total.

Thats 4.6 times more canopy in the same area man. And ive seen setups where the doors are covered in canopy, so you dont have to lose area on entrances.

Now this is assuming only half of your 12x12 space is for bloom. If you used the whole space by building 4 octagons and putting 2k watts in each one then you turned a room using 4k and producing about a lb per lamp into a room using 8k and producing 2lbs per lamp. (and that guy gets 3lbs per 1k lamp.)

So you go from a total of 4k, and 144 square feet of grow space producing 4 lbs. to 8k 672 sq ft of grow canopy, producing 16 lbs.

But lets say you just wwant to stick with 4k of lighting. Then you can cut your bloom space in half from 12x12 to 6x12 like in the first example, and get 8 lbs from 4k. which is double what the 12x12 of flat bloom space was doing.

Bottom line if you build one octagon 7 ft high and light it with 2k watts like all the vert guys do, than you can double what you were producing using half the space, A

nd if you double the lighting you were using you can quadruple what you were getting out of the same space.

These are hard numbers man. Im just giving you the straight dope. you seem like your trying to convince me that a shit ton of vert guys are wrong.

Theres a reason you dont see a bunch of shit about vert on forums. the guys that do it are to busy spending all their money to log onto these forums.

These forums seem to be more for novice and medical growers who just want to keep from buying pot from a drug dealer. Or the dealer whos tired of his supply drying up and want to produce a lb or two every thirty days.

Commercial growers havnt really made an impact on these forums alot. But commercial guys have know about the up side of vert growing for years.

And im sure if alot of people knew the ease at which you can grow vertical and the obvious benefits of it they would switch.

So it is "Cut and Dried". The only thing thats not cut and dried is the learning curve from learning to maximize a new system. And every method of growing has a learnign curve when your trying to maximize what the space can produce. SO........im going vert. You can keep telling yourself that its not the way to go. Ill post a link to my vert grow in here when i get started in two weeks. Im gonna be using 2k in one octagon.

Sorry for the double post, but even if your just a cfl guy with a cab, you coul do a vert grow similar the the one in the post below me and increase your yield like 3 times. (its a circle so there is less area that an octagon of the same hight.)

It just dosnt make sense why people arent growing this way. So much so that ive avoided it thinking there was a catch. But, THERE IS NO CATCH.

So when you get this vertical thing going on, are you going to show us some pics? Maybe let us all know how much it cost you to set up?

I'm curious

What about losing the ability to position lighting closer to the canopy?
Would eliminating the reflector really completely offset this?

Figure an 8' wide vert. bulb hangs in the middle, 3' of open air on all sides - lets just say 1 meter just to simplify.
Now, consider the inverse squares law, at 1 meter, you have 1/4 the usable light than you do at 1/2 meter.

So, there is a HUGE difference in the efficiency of a light that you can position very close to the canopy vs. a fixed position bulb. Do you believe this to be inconsequential?

Most definitely, im gonna make a parts list, and really break down construction so that it becomes easy to duplicate.

First off, the design im using is linked on the first page in one of my post. Im going to modify his square into an octagon to increasae efficiency. But, yes, i will post religiously. If it dosnt work i will be the first to tell you. But ive read about 10 vert grow journals on dif forums from front to back, and all of them have gotten at lease two per 1k and most have gotten more.

I will keep you guys posted.

AeroKing said:

What about losing the ability to position lighting closer to the canopy?
Would eliminating the reflector really completely offset this?

Figure an 8' wide vert. bulb hangs in the middle, 3' of open air on all sides - lets just say 1 meter just to simplify.
Now, consider the inverse squares law, at 1 meter, you have 1/4 the usable light than you do at 1/2 meter.

So, there is a HUGE difference in the efficiency of a light that you can position very close to the canopy vs. a fixed position bulb. Do you believe this to be inconsequential?

Click to expand...

You have to take this into account when you build the room. Obviously a con of vert growing. You have to resize the whole room to benificially move the light closer to all sides. But this is why my octagon will only be 60 inches wide. Made of 8 shelves that are 30 inches long.

Hey Pro, I see your on-line. That pic of the Lady using them Totem Pole looking things is awesome !!! For an outdoor grower, I think. Painted green & brown, full of plants, it would look like a vine covered tree trunk from the air & just another vine covered bush in the woods. One section of 12" PVC pipe, 8' long, with the holes cut & little "front porches" for each hole. Potatoes has been raised in a wired-in hay pile, with the stems hanging out of the sides. When harvest time comes, tip the thing over, and pick up your potatoes. 10 Ladies in one Totem Pot Pole would be amazing!

this is all old news !
the down side to vertical growing, is tying all the crops to the ceiling, and only being able to grow them a couple feet max. Also having a couple hundred equal sized clones is next to impossible, it's way more work to maintain then potted plants on the ground. Plus all your buds are small sized colas, you have to grow in rock wool, with a drip feed or pump system.
so to say that everyone is retarded, for wanting bigger and better plants with less work ? you might be the one missing some chromosomes.
The omega garden type structures are absolutely perfect for maximizing space, yield, consistency and is easy to use and reliable, my suggestion would be to change the 1000w hps to a 600 hps with a 250 or 400 mh in the mix as well.
The only reason to grow vertically, is to sell your crop.

Resident Kush said:

this is all old news !
the down side to vertical growing, is tying all the crops to the ceiling, and only being able to grow them a couple feet max. Also having a couple hundred equal sized clones is next to impossible, it's way more work to maintain then potted plants on the ground. Plus all your buds are small sized colas, you have to grow in rock wool, with a drip feed or pump system.
so to say that everyone is retarded, for wanting bigger and better plants with less work ? you might be the one missing some chromosomes.
The omega garden type structures are absolutely perfect for maximizing space, yield, consistency and is easy to use and reliable, my suggestion would be to change the 1000w hps to a 600 hps with a 250 or 400 mh in the mix as well.
The only reason to grow vertically, is to sell your crop.

Click to expand...

Im not saying were retarded, but here case in point.

Did you know that you can have a 2k system that produces at least 4+ lbs every two months using no more than 36 plants? You dont have to have a rotating mass of steel and 500 clones to work the verticle concept. It can be adapted to any size.

Reat the thread man. Shit. Nobody said it was cutting edge. The thread is about why people wont take a leap and try it, since the method is tried and true. And alot of people could even benifit from just an apllication of the concept even on this kind of small scale http://74.125.93.104/translate_c?hl=...dT88KHNIvrQ6ng

this guy go 2 ounces with cfls off one bubble bucket. you could pull a half lb off a closet of four of these.

i made a DIY vertical grow for less than a grand.. (excluding lights and filters) i run 2400w and about 75 plants.. got 5 sides of the lights covered.. all four sides and the floor.. truly is quite effective.. you can follow the link in my sig. i am expecting between 5 and 8 lbs. here is also a link to the construction of the vert https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/145799-going-vertical-construction-monster.html#post1839788

also just came up with a concept for a DIY aero/ ebb and flow vertical setup that would cost maybe 150 bux at most. https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/146838-brilliant-vertical-ebb-flo-concept.html#post1856083

vert is the way to go.. ill prove it in feburary haha

FLo

Im glad you showed up and linked your op Flo, ive read all your threads and im gooing to incorporate alot of what you do into my op. I also like your ebb and flo design.

thanks man.. i am with you, i dont think there is any way to deny that a properly done vert can be out done by a flat garden.. it just cannot be done

watt for watt lumen for lumen, a properly maintained vert will outperform every single time.. its just a matter of time before vert becomes the new standard in growing

Im going to start a vbulletin forum on strictly growing vertical. I already have the server space, i just need to get a domain. Im pretty sure vert will win over in the long run.

sign me up

I got a ? for you prophet. I use a warehouse to grow. I have 1 veg room thats around 18' x 18' with 3 1000 watt MH on light movers going over 2 16' x 4' tables and my 16 moms. I have 2 flower rooms that are about 13' x 18' I use the same size tables but I run 4 1000 watt hps's over each table. I harvest 2 tables a month and get about 18lbs.

What I'm trying to understand is that aren't the plants going to be way smaller in this garden? How would you modify this setup to go verticle. I'm not one of those guys who gets stuck on something. I'm in it for the money so if there's a will then, I'm wit it. I just don't understand how this could work I grow big plants, about 4 ft when finished. I use peat moss in 5 gallon bags and when I water, that stuff gets really heavy! Do I need to worry about anything falling or etc. Here's a pic of one of my veg tables. Anybody out there with any suggestions would help.

I was just reading about the Omega garden, Volks wagon. It seems to hold 80 plants. Those plants seem really small. If I have an average of 17 under a light then thats like saying 5 to 1 ratio. Can 5 little guys equal 1 of my big babies. I get like 7 cola's off one plant that look full and healthy. (Pinching and pruning) From what I see, looks like the tallest plant you could grow is maybe 1 ft. Maybe less because of the root zone space? I'm not disagreeing with anybody on this, I'm just simply posting my concerns.

so let me get this. You are getting 18lbs off of 8k watts every month? If you are doing that then you are doing very well. I am switching to verticle because i can only get .5 grams per 1000 watts. I would be satisfied with yields like that. However if you can do that flat then imagine what you coul ddo verticle. You might be one of the guys who can get four bows per 1k lamp.

Check out flojos link in his signature.

"What im saying is if you have a 12x12 growroom then you only pro have about half of that as bloom space."

naw, space is not a limiting factor for me, i have a separate clone/vedge room that's plenty big.

"So you have a 6x12 space suitable for two 1000 watt lights. the six by 12 space has an area of 72 sq ft. Now imagine you seperate your 6x12 bloom space into two 6x6 spaces."

i'm not sure where you get this man... the link you keep referring to says that he is in a 8' by 8' room i believe... and that if it were any smaller that he would have problems with burning his plants. maybe if you had a cooltube setup you could do the '6x6'

"You build an octagon of shelving 7 feet hight."

the guy who's example you've been using has rooms that are 8 ft high. the ground or near to it is used as a shelf and another shelf is place midway up.

"Inside that octagon you will now have a wall area of 168 square ft."

the sq. footage of wall space inside an octagon in a room that is 6' by 6' by 8' is around 120 sq. ft. not counting a door.

"Shelve the space out however you want but make sure that you fill up all the wallspace with foliage and you effectively turned a 36sq ft of growing canopy into 168 square ft of canopy."

like i said, if floor space is a limiting factor, then YES vertical is Obviously the way to go.

"Thats 4.6 times more canopy in the same area man."

If this were relevant and/or true... then vertical growers would yield 2.3x more bud than flat growers per 1000w. A flat grower that has his room dialed in can get about 2lbs per 1000w. Do you know any vertical growers claiming to get 4.6 lbs per 1000w bulb?

"If you used the whole space by building 4 octagons and putting 2k watts in each one then you turned a room using 4k and producing about a lb per lamp into a room using 8k and producing 2lbs per lamp."

8k sounds like a good way to get busted... but as already stated, there are flat growers getting 2lbs. per lamp.

"and that guy gets 3lbs per 1k lamp."

i don't know where you are getting this man. i read the SAME thread you did and it says that he got 4.25 lbs from (2) 1000w HPS bubls. He only got 6 lbs. total by adding another 600w HPS bulb between the other two 1000w bulbs.

"So you go from a total of 4k, and 144 square feet of grow space producing 4 lbs. to 8k 672 sq ft of grow canopy, producing 16 lbs."

those numbers are possible in a flat grow. that is the usual range in yield. from 1lb to 2 lbs. per 1000w HPS.

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"and if you double the lighting you were using you can quadruple what you were getting out of the same space."

a person MAY be able to double what they are getting from a floor footprint going with a two tier vert system. or even triple what they are getting from a particular footprint with a three tier vert system. You are the ONLY one claiming that a person can quadruple their yeild from a floor space. And you are missing the -BIG- point... if you take those same three 1000w lights in that VERT system and put them out over a FLAT area... you are going to yeild about 6lbs either way.

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"These are hard numbers man. Im just giving you the straight dope. you seem like your trying to convince me that a shit ton of vert guys are wrong."

no, i'm trying to convince you that you should pay better attention to exactly what they are doing before you waste your own time and money, and more importantly, other people's time and money.

"Theres a reason you dont see a bunch of shit about vert on forums. the guys that do it are to busy spending all their money to log onto these forums."

hilarious. all those poor broke-ass flat growers are just ashamed of themselves, i'm sure.

"These forums seem to be more for novice and medical growers who just want to keep from buying pot from a drug dealer. Or the dealer whos tired of his supply drying up and want to produce a lb or two every thirty days."

hate to tell you bro, but there's plenty of experienced growers around these part. from what i have seen, RIU is the most active Mary J board on the whole WWW. That means theres tons of pros and amateurs.

"Commercial growers havnt really made an impact on these forums alot."

this another one of your 'hard facts' ?

"And im sure if alot of people knew the ease at which you can grow vertical and the obvious benefits of it they would switch."

you must have stock in Vertical

"So it is "Cut and Dried". The only thing thats not cut and dried is the learning curve from learning to maximize a new system. And every method of growing has a learnign curve when your trying to maximize what the space can produce. SO........im going vert. You can keep telling yourself that its not the way to go. Ill post a link to my vert grow in here when i get started in two weeks. Im gonna be using 2k in one octagon."

i don't doubt that that is the right setup for maximizing the yield in -your grow space-. the reason why everyone ISN'T retarded is because not everyone is limited in their grow space, but rather limited by the Electricity that they use... and therefor prefer the ease of Flat growing in a larger footprint.

In your initial post you asked if 'everyone is retarded' and why everyone hasn't switched to vertical. You weren't actually looking for an answer to that question, obviously. It should have been called, 'Anyone not doing vertical is retarded.'

1. I have read about many vertical grows and just as often as not, they fail to break the 2 lb. per 1000w barrier.
2. Vertical setups seem to require more time in the garden.
3. Vertical space is not equivalent to horizontal space on a sq. ft. by sq. ft. basis.
4. There are different problems to deal with in a vertical setup, ie; controlling heat if you aren't using cooltubes.
5. Vertical setups require you to do some minor construction or setup in the grow area, often reducing the floor space by adding walls.
6. If they are going to require more work and yield the same amount of buds then its a waste of time.
7. If floorspace is not a limiting factor, everything that i have seen indicates that VERTICAL offers marginal improvements in yeild, at best, over FLAT grows.

Last Example: FloJo said that he/she is expecting 5-8 lbs off of 2400watts. (More power to you FloJo for maximizing your space, im just trying to make a point as to why EVERYONE and their brother is Vert-Happy) If FloJo gets 5lbs. then they are right at the 2lbs per 1000w HPS 'barrier' that most FLAT growers run into. If this person gets 7 or 8 lbs.... THEN it would indicate that vertical growing is superior in gram per watt. Most of the Vert grows i've read about Do Not establish this as fact.

The Future of Vertical Growing is riding on you FloJo, no pressure, no pressure

now lets just hug

LOL well i guess i better go check my ph and ppms... make sure it is all dialed in..

i think everything that you said is valid..

verts only get better gains if they are built right and utilized correctly.. i too have seen a fair share of verts that fail to properly utilize the concept and get minimal gains over flat

they also require much more work.. not only in construction of the operation but also in moving plants around, figuring out creative ways of tieing them up etc.

there is definietly a difference in plant placement when speaking of side sq footage and floor sq footage.. such as light penetration factors.. you have to almost think in cubic feet.

also it depends on the skill of the grower.. if you cant grow well in a flat garden you cannot grow well in a vert garden.. if you look at someone like heath robinson who is on the forefront of vert growing, he easily squezes out over 2lbs per 1k.. in fact my system is a spinoff on one that he made that yielded about 1.53 gpw