Wanting to start organics while in winter/isolation

R

Relic79

Well-Known Member
Hi All!

I have clones and a couple seedlings that are rooted and taking off in a plain coco/perlite mix that will need to be transplanted right away as they are looking hungry.

I am fund limited, and in isolation until December 1st assuming everyone in my family goes symptom free, otherwise it could be longer.

I have access to enough raw organic material to get started. I want to make sure I put a recipe together that meets the following (hopeful) criteria:
  • Just add water: Ideally I'd like to be able to take my plain tap water (ph 7.0-7.2, 170ppm) and use it to water the plants directly from the tap.
  • Sustain plants for immediate transplant and veg, top dress later. I have plants that need food, so need the nutrients to be available quickly.
  • Isn't a concoction of weird random ingredients with no thought put in that no one here can help me with if things go wrong.

Things I have on hand from general gardening and current grow:

Premixed/Used:
  • 50 L (+/-) of 70/30 Botanicare coco mixed with Gaia green all purpose 4-4-4 and a bit of 2-8-4 (at application rate listed on bag) and some D.E.
  • 50 L (+/-) of 70/30 Botanicare coco use for synthetic growing with salt based fertilizer. (Could be washed?)
  • plastic packaged bale of "Garden straw" opened and sitting outside (probably has bugs, but probably did from day one anyway).

Unused/Raw Material:
I have locally sourced a 40L bag of vermi-compost as I think this will be an inexpensive key to a successful grow this time.
It is frozen and the proprietor is thawing a bag for me now so I can buy a portion of it, or the whole thing. It is 6-6-6.

I am trying to not buy anything else for now.

My current questions:
  • Will the Glacial Rock Dust + vermi-compost + Mycorrhizal fungi do the job of buffering Ph, well enough to use my tap water?
  • Is 170 ppm of "stuff" in my tap water negligible to my plan, or should I see what that 170ppm is made up of on my water report and account for it in some way?
  • The Gaia Green says it can take 2 weeks to break down and become available, and I know soils need to cook, but I have young plants in need. Will the vermi-compost be enough to sustain early veg on new clones as the other stuff breaks down?
  • Am I missing anything you would consider absolutely key, or planning to add anything you would leave out?
  • Should I expect and plan for any kind of particular trouble using coco instead of peat?
  • Since I don't have much, I plan to put the Kelp meal aside for a future tea instead of mixing it in. Am I right to think 1 cup of kelp will go further brewed then if I just throw it in the mix?
  • Could I use the garden straw that's been outside as cover, or am I asking for bugs? Is there any way I could "treat" the straw before hand if needed, or should I just find another cover method and/or crop?

I plan to research this, and post back my planned recipe for feedback.

In the mean time, If anyone has any ideas of how they might combine what I have, or answers t some of my questions I'd love to hear it.

I'm hoping to mix this in 3 days when I am able to get the vermi-compost. I may start rinsing and pre-mixing some of this over the weekend to get the processes started.


Thanks in advance for your help, time and feedback!
 
Relic79 said:
Hi All!

I have clones and a couple seedlings that are rooted and taking off in a plain coco/perlite mix that will need to be transplanted right away as they are looking hungry.

I am fund limited, and in isolation until December 1st assuming everyone in my family goes symptom free, otherwise it could be longer.

I have access to enough raw organic material to get started. I want to make sure I put a recipe together that meets the following (hopeful) criteria:
  • Just add water: Ideally I'd like to be able to take my plain tap water (ph 7.0-7.2, 170ppm) and use it to water the plants directly from the tap.
  • Sustain plants for immediate transplant and veg, top dress later. I have plants that need food, so need the nutrients to be available quickly.
  • Isn't a concoction of weird random ingredients with no thought put in that no one here can help me with if things go wrong.

Things I have on hand from general gardening and current grow:

Premixed/Used:
  • 50 L (+/-) of 70/30 Botanicare coco mixed with Gaia green all purpose 4-4-4 and a bit of 2-8-4 (at application rate listed on bag) and some D.E.
  • 50 L (+/-) of 70/30 Botanicare coco use for synthetic growing with salt based fertilizer. (Could be washed?)
  • plastic packaged bale of "Garden straw" opened and sitting outside (probably has bugs, but probably did from day one anyway).

Unused/Raw Material:
I have locally sourced a 40L bag of vermi-compost as I think this will be an inexpensive key to a successful grow this time.
It is frozen and the proprietor is thawing a bag for me now so I can buy a portion of it, or the whole thing. It is 6-6-6.

I am trying to not buy anything else for now.

My current questions:
  • Will the Glacial Rock Dust + vermi-compost + Mycorrhizal fungi do the job of buffering Ph, well enough to use my tap water?
  • Is 170 ppm of "stuff" in my tap water negligible to my plan, or should I see what that 170ppm is made up of on my water report and account for it in some way?
  • The Gaia Green says it can take 2 weeks to break down and become available, and I know soils need to cook, but I have young plants in need. Will the vermi-compost be enough to sustain early veg on new clones as the other stuff breaks down?
  • Am I missing anything you would consider absolutely key, or planning to add anything you would leave out?
  • Should I expect and plan for any kind of particular trouble using coco instead of peat?
  • Since I don't have much, I plan to put the Kelp meal aside for a future tea instead of mixing it in. Am I right to think 1 cup of kelp will go further brewed then if I just throw it in the mix?
  • Could I use the garden straw that's been outside as cover, or am I asking for bugs? Is there any way I could "treat" the straw before hand if needed, or should I just find another cover method and/or crop?

I plan to research this, and post back my planned recipe for feedback.

In the mean time, If anyone has any ideas of how they might combine what I have, or answers t some of my questions I'd love to hear it.

I'm hoping to mix this in 3 days when I am able to get the vermi-compost. I may start rinsing and pre-mixing some of this over the weekend to get the processes started.


Thanks in advance for your help, time and feedback!
Click to expand...
What are you gonna do about light? Are you gonna get a tent?
 
PadawanWarrior said:
What are you gonna do about light? Are you gonna get a tent?
Click to expand...

I have an 8x8x9 walk in room in my basement, light tight, flat white, floor drain, passive air flow using house A/C and a dehumidifier, (need a humidifier as I go into winter now but I'll deal with that later). Passive intake is able to be sealed when/if I can afford a mini-split and CO2. Planning ahead, but starting simple. I ran two 600 watt switchable MH/HPS over a 4x8 area (grow diary in sig) and had a rough go keeping temps down due to house limitations.

I just bought this light: BudgetLED Series 3+ 500watt FullSpec

I am just finishing up a grow that went bad but managed to get 8 ounces or so.

I have a solid idea of where I went wrong. Scaling back and trying again with a hopefully better organic soil (the reason for this post), fewer plants, smaller area and a better light.
 
Relic79 said:
Hi All!

I have clones and a couple seedlings that are rooted and taking off in a plain coco/perlite mix that will need to be transplanted right away as they are looking hungry.

I am fund limited, and in isolation until December 1st assuming everyone in my family goes symptom free, otherwise it could be longer.

I have access to enough raw organic material to get started. I want to make sure I put a recipe together that meets the following (hopeful) criteria:
  • Just add water: Ideally I'd like to be able to take my plain tap water (ph 7.0-7.2, 170ppm) and use it to water the plants directly from the tap.
  • Sustain plants for immediate transplant and veg, top dress later. I have plants that need food, so need the nutrients to be available quickly.
  • Isn't a concoction of weird random ingredients with no thought put in that no one here can help me with if things go wrong.

Things I have on hand from general gardening and current grow:

Premixed/Used:
  • 50 L (+/-) of 70/30 Botanicare coco mixed with Gaia green all purpose 4-4-4 and a bit of 2-8-4 (at application rate listed on bag) and some D.E.
  • 50 L (+/-) of 70/30 Botanicare coco use for synthetic growing with salt based fertilizer. (Could be washed?)
  • plastic packaged bale of "Garden straw" opened and sitting outside (probably has bugs, but probably did from day one anyway).

Unused/Raw Material:
I have locally sourced a 40L bag of vermi-compost as I think this will be an inexpensive key to a successful grow this time.
It is frozen and the proprietor is thawing a bag for me now so I can buy a portion of it, or the whole thing. It is 6-6-6.

I am trying to not buy anything else for now.

My current questions:
  • Will the Glacial Rock Dust + vermi-compost + Mycorrhizal fungi do the job of buffering Ph, well enough to use my tap water?
  • Is 170 ppm of "stuff" in my tap water negligible to my plan, or should I see what that 170ppm is made up of on my water report and account for it in some way?
  • The Gaia Green says it can take 2 weeks to break down and become available, and I know soils need to cook, but I have young plants in need. Will the vermi-compost be enough to sustain early veg on new clones as the other stuff breaks down?
  • Am I missing anything you would consider absolutely key, or planning to add anything you would leave out?
  • Should I expect and plan for any kind of particular trouble using coco instead of peat?
  • Since I don't have much, I plan to put the Kelp meal aside for a future tea instead of mixing it in. Am I right to think 1 cup of kelp will go further brewed then if I just throw it in the mix?
  • Could I use the garden straw that's been outside as cover, or am I asking for bugs? Is there any way I could "treat" the straw before hand if needed, or should I just find another cover method and/or crop?

I plan to research this, and post back my planned recipe for feedback.

In the mean time, If anyone has any ideas of how they might combine what I have, or answers t some of my questions I'd love to hear it.

I'm hoping to mix this in 3 days when I am able to get the vermi-compost. I may start rinsing and pre-mixing some of this over the weekend to get the processes started.


Thanks in advance for your help, time and feedback!
Click to expand...
I don't use coco. I use peat based soil myself. But I can say a few things.

The vermicompost should be able to keep the pH adjusted where you want it.

170ppm isn't horrible for the water, depending on what's in it. That's about what my well water is. Mine's usually around 7.5 and my soil buffers it just fine. It's mostly Ca in my water I'm guessing so I use less Ca based amendments.

The vermicompost should be enough until the Gaia breaks down. You can also mix some Gaia with some vermicompost and let that cook, so you can top dress with that and it'll already be active. I also like to add some pumice for aeration to the vermicompost, but you don't have to.

As far as the Kelp meal, I just top dress with it. The tea will be available sooner, but I'm too lazy to be doing teas all the time anymore.

And I wouldn't bring stuff in from outside. You're asking for bugs that way.
 
Relic79 said:
I just bought this light: BudgetLED Series 3+ 500watt FullSpec
Click to expand...

If you can't grow thick dank colas with that light, you may as well throw in the towel. lol

Are you going to program the colour temperature as in sunrise/sunset and all that? I've not seen any research on its effect, but I'm curious because even huge LPs like Canopy Growth do that. Or maybe that's why their weed is so bad? lol *kidding*
 
Northwood said:
If you can't grow thick dank colas with that light, you may as well throw in the towel. lol

Are you going to program the colour temperature as in sunrise/sunset and all that? I've not seen any research on its effect, but I'm curious because even huge LPs like Canopy Growth do that. Or maybe that's why their weed is so bad? lol *kidding*
Click to expand...

It would for fun, but there are physical switches that turn the supplemental red, blue, UV and IR LEDs on and off, and a single driver to power and dim the entire board. So I can control dimming, but not spectrum. Those guys must use multiple drivers controlling separate arrays of LEDs or special dimming circuits to control sets of LEDs. It would be fun to hang out in the room and watch if nothing else!

On a separate note: Do you see anything on my list of ingredients I should not use? Anything I might be missing that will likely cause problems/failure soil wise?
 
PadawanWarrior said:
I don't use coco. I use peat based soil myself. But I can say a few things.

The vermicompost should be able to keep the pH adjusted where you want it.

170ppm isn't horrible for the water, depending on what's in it. That's about what my well water is. Mine's usually around 7.5 and my soil buffers it just fine. It's mostly Ca in my water I'm guessing so I use less Ca based amendments.

The vermicompost should be enough until the Gaia breaks down. You can also mix some Gaia with some vermicompost and let that cook, so you can top dress with that and it'll already be active. I also like to add some pumice for aeration to the vermicompost, but you don't have to.

As far as the Kelp meal, I just top dress with it. The tea will be available sooner, but I'm too lazy to be doing teas all the time anymore.

And I wouldn't bring stuff in from outside. You're asking for bugs that way.
Click to expand...

This advice sounds good enough for me to continue my path.

Do you know why most organic gardeners seem to go with peat based mixes instead of coco? Is it just a familiarity thing?
That's almost my largest concern is that all advice is usually pointing to peat over coco for organics and I'm not yet clear on why.
 
Relic79 said:
This advice sounds good enough for me to continue my path.

Do you know why most organic gardeners seem to go with peat based mixes instead of coco? Is it just a familiarity thing?
That's almost my largest concern is that all advice is usually pointing to peat over coco for organics and I'm not yet clear on why.
Click to expand...
www.kisorganics.com

Peat vs Coco Coir

This can be a hotly debated topic among growers as to what's the best media for growing plants. In this article, I'll weigh in with my opinion on the subject as there are Pros and Cons to both.
www.kisorganics.com www.kisorganics.com
 
Relic79 said:
On a separate note: Do you see anything on my list of ingredients I should not use? Anything I might be missing that will likely cause problems/failure soil wise?
Click to expand...

I've never used any GAIA Green products so I really can't comment on that, except to say they're pretty popular around here. It's not because I have anything against them, but because I'm cheap and lazy. If you're using coir, I'd pick organic amendments that are on the low side potassium-wise, otherwise a calcium shortage might be in your future.

Also to aid in water holding capacity, a bit of vermiculite might be a good idea along with a little montmorillonite clay. That will raise your caption exchange capacity to that comparable with peat moss, and give you some silica for free, while giving you similar water holding capabilities. Coir can work just fine for organic no-till if you just treat it a little differently that way.
 
Northwood said:
....a little montmorillonite clay....
Click to expand...

Is sodium bentonite the same? Are there coon sources I might look to?

I see sodium bentonite listed as the ingredient in unscented cat litter.....but wonder if it's the same and what else might be in the litter that would be not so good.

I have a couple of places I can call on Monday too.
 
Relic79 said:
Is sodium bentonite the same? Are there coon sources I might look to?

I see sodium bentonite listed as the ingredient in unscented cat litter.....but wonder if it's the same and what else might be in the litter that would be not so good.

I have a couple of places I can call on Monday too.
Click to expand...

If you use bentonite, use the calcium, food grade variety. You can pick it up at any wine making or brew supplies store. You won't need much for that amount of soil medium, maybe 500g to 1kg would do you.
 
Northwood said:
If you use bentonite, use the calcium, food grade variety. You can pick it up at any wine making or brew supplies store. You won't need much for that amount of soil medium, maybe 500g to 1kg would do you.
Click to expand...

Thanks! @Northwood

I'm sorry, I'm going to @ mention a couple people I've seen commenting with opinions I'd like to hear more on related to this.

@PadawanWarrior you have mentioned you use peat, and I've been researching tonight and see other posts where you would suggest peat over coco in a mix. Likewise with @xtsho .

I just wonder why is it usually strongly recommended to use peat instead of coco when making an organic mix. What do you feel you gain, or would lose by using or not using coco in your personal experience?

My wife is able to go out, so if it would be that much better, I can likely have her pick me up a bale of HP Promix and forget about my coco as a base ingredient. The only reason I want to use the coco is to save money, not waste it, and not have my wife running errands during a pandemic.

Thank you for your time!
 
Last edited:
PadawanWarrior said:
I think you mean @xtsho .
Click to expand...

Thumb tapped my track pad over the post button prematurely. I would value your opinion, or links to any posts you may have already gone into detail on. I want to go no-till after this or next cycle like some of you, and if coco is going to throw me off for years to come I want to get off on the right foot.
 
Relic79 said:
Thumb tapped my track pad over the post button prematurely. I would value your opinion, or links to any posts you may have already gone into detail on. I want to go no-till after this or next cycle like some of you, and if coco is going to throw me off for years to come I want to get off on the right foot.
Click to expand...
Personally I don't mix them.
 
Relic79 said:
Thanks! @Northwood

I'm sorry, I'm going to @ mention a couple people I've seen commenting with opinions I'd like to hear more on related to this.

@PadawanWarrior you have mentioned you use peat, and I've been researching tonight and see other posts where you would suggest peat over coco in a mix. Likewise with @xtsho .

I just wonder why is it usually strongly recommended to use peat instead of coco when making an organic mix. What do you feel you gain, or would lose by using or not using coco in your personal experience?

My wife is able to go out, so if it would be that much better, I can likely have her pick me up a bale of HP Promix and forget about my coco as a base ingredient. The only reason I want to use the coco is to save money, not waste it, and not have my wife running errands during a pandemic.

Thank you for your time!
Click to expand...

I personally have never done an organic mix using coco instead of peat. I know people do it but from what I've observed it doesn't always have the best results.

I'm transitioning to organics myself and at this time I'm not really qualified to give any advice with organics as I'm still learning myself. I wish I could provide some insight but since I'm still learning it's best that others with more experience with organics answer your questions.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll get it all figured out. :blsmoke:
 
xtsho said:
I personally have never done an organic mix using coco instead of peat. I know people do it but from what I've observed it doesn't always have the best results.

I'm transitioning to organics myself and at this time I'm not really qualified to give any advice with organics as I'm still learning myself. I wish I could provide some insight but since I'm still learning it's best that others with more experience with organics answer your questions.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll get it all figured out. :blsmoke:
Click to expand...

Would you mind talking highlevel about your soil/amedmant plan as you transition, or what you plan to use ratio-wise for a base-mix?

The more I read, the more it seems like people favour peat because it is a well known and understod soil enhancer, and there are years of experience and soil recipes to draw on, plus it works. Coco seems generally discouraged, but I don't often see a reason except to not change what isn't broken.

I should say, I'm not trying to start a debate between the two sides, just curious to see if anyone would have some specific reasons they like peat. @Northwood talked about how I can adjust for some of the shortcomings in Coco, and I read the article @PadawanWarrior helpfully linked which broke down pros and cons of each.

But also reading through @Northwood 's posts, I see he started with I believe it was HP Promix.

I guess I'm just stuck wondering if I should use what I have, or if getting my wife to pickup a bale of Promix will really be worth it.

Analysis paralysis maybe? Won't someone just tell me what to do so I can blame them later when things go wrong? (jokes)

Regardless, my wife is going to call in about an hour and ask what I want and I'm going to have to pull the trigger and make it work.
 
@Relic79 I didn't use Pro-mix HP. I used Pro-mix Organic Herb and Vegetable that supposedly has enough precharged nutes in it to grow plants for 3 months or something. So I cheated a bit just to get through the first cycle more easily because most of my initial amendments would only benefit the next grow cycle or even beyond.
 
Relic79 said:
Would you mind talking highlevel about your soil/amedmant plan as you transition, or what you plan to use ratio-wise for a base-mix?

The more I read, the more it seems like people favour peat because it is a well known and understod soil enhancer, and there are years of experience and soil recipes to draw on, plus it works. Coco seems generally discouraged, but I don't often see a reason except to not change what isn't broken.

I should say, I'm not trying to start a debate between the two sides, just curious to see if anyone would have some specific reasons they like peat. @Northwood talked about how I can adjust for some of the shortcomings in Coco, and I read the article @PadawanWarrior helpfully linked which broke down pros and cons of each.

But also reading through @Northwood 's posts, I see he started with I believe it was HP Promix.

I guess I'm just stuck wondering if I should use what I have, or if getting my wife to pickup a bale of Promix will really be worth it.

Analysis paralysis maybe? Won't someone just tell me what to do so I can blame them later when things go wrong? (jokes)

Regardless, my wife is going to call in about an hour and ask what I want and I'm going to have to pull the trigger and make it work.
Click to expand...
I just started with FFOF. And after a few runs I turned it into no-till.
 
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