Well Here Goes

Danielsgb · Sep 1, 2010

Need to keep these from IAm5toned.

IAm5toned said:
you would be lucky if you saved 10$ a bill.
the benefit of 240 is increased lights per circuit, due to decreased amperage...
the power company bills you for wattage, not amperage, and a watt @ 120v cost the same as a watt of 240v.
a 240v ballast is not that much more efficient than a 120v, so you dont notice any significant savings untill your up in the 4-5kw range.

IAm5toned said:
of course it is, as long as the one power source is big enough for the fans.

here's how you find out-

on the fan, somewhere, on the fan, there will be a stamp, label, or embossed lettering that says the voltage, and the power consumption. looks like this-

12vdc 12w or 12vdc 500ma

what you need is the wattage, or milliamps of the fans.

add them all up (the wattage, or mA) , then multiply by 120%....

example-
3 fans, 500mA (6w)
500ma
x 3
1500ma
x 120%
1800mA

or-
6w
x 3
18w
x 120%
21.6 w

or-
.18 amps
x 3
.54
x 120%
.648 amps
your power supply, needs to be big enough for 1800mA, or, .648 amps @ 12vdc, or 21.6w @ 12vdc

just change the mA, or wattage, or amps, to match the power requirements of the fans you have.

IAm5toned said:
dont bother asking him, ive done the work for you. as far as tips on saving energy, to be brutally honest there really are not any that will make a big savings magically appear on your bill. the best trick, is running your lights @ nightime when at all possible, its easier for a/c to cool the grow @ night then it is during the day in the summer, and in the winter, it helps with your heating bill. if you plan on pulling some serious wattage, like greater than 2kw, then you can have the lights running on opposite phases (saw 1kw on blk phase one, and 1 kw on red phase 2) running large parallel loads on opposite phases can save you 5-8%, but like i said, it only works on large loads.
all you really have to worry about is how your going to pay for his services.

common continuous duty grow operation wattages based on voltage, with breaker and wire sizes. all wire sizes are based on thwn-2/thhn Cu conductors with a max run of 300'
breaker size----volts------ max wattage allowed ----smallest wire size allowed

15 amp breaker @ 120v = 1440w(12 amps actual) max = #14 awg Cu wire, min

20 amp breaker @ 120v = 1920w(16 amps actual) max = #12 awg Cu wire, min

30 amp breaker @ 120v = 2880w(24 amps actual) max = #10 awg Cu wire, min

40 amp breaker @ 120v = 3840w(32 amps actual) max = #8 awg Cu wire, min

60 amp breaker @ 120v = 5760w(48 amps actual) max = #6 awg Cu wire, min

100 amp breaker @ 120v = 9600w(80 amps actual) max = #3 awg Cu wire, min

15 amp breaker @ 240v = 2880w(12 amps actual) max = #14 awg Cu wire, min

20 amp breaker @ 240v = 3840w(16 amps actual) max = #12 awg Cu wire, min

30 amp breaker @ 240v = 5760w(24 amps actual) max = #10 awg Cu wire, min

40 amp breaker @ 240v = 7680w(32 amps actual) max = #8 awg Cu wire, min

60 amp breaker @ 240v = 11520w(48 amps actual) max = #6 awg Cu wire, min

100 amp breaker @ 240v= 19200w(80 amps actual) max = #3 awg Cu wire, min

Danielsgb · Sep 4, 2010

Here is some of the info I'm studying.
Daniels :weed:

riddleme said:
Well it seems that I am not the only one that is experimenting with IR to make bigger, better buds Ed Rosenthal just came out with an updated version of his growers handbook (subcool was involved) and I have been reading excerpts from it all morning, good stuff!!!

a lot of what I am doing is discussed, ie; my way of manipulating the light cycle and I gatta say that I am going to buy this book based on everything I have read so far, here is the quote about using IR (there is more, link at the end)

Flowering In Less Darkness
In Experiments at the Cutting Edge, Part I, I discussed critical dark periods that induce flowering. When the plant repeatedly receives an uninterrupted dark period of that length, flowering is induced. The plant measures darkness as the absence of red light. To stop a plant from flowering, interrupt the dark period with red light such as the light from an incandescent bulb half way the dark period and the plant will continue to grow vegetatively.
When the red light ends it takes the inactive form (which doesnt promote flowering) about two hours to change over to the active form. This can be speeded up considerably by far red light. You cannot see far red light but you can feel it as heat. Incandescent bulbs emit about 10% of their energy as visible light. The other 90% is emitted as far red light. When the light hits a solid object, the energy is converted to heat.
You can make your own far red energy lamp by covering an incandescent bulb with opaque black paper. The visible light is blocked but the far red rays go through the filter. Far red bulbs are available at pet shops where they are sold as black heat lamps.
When far red light comes in contact with the inactive form of the flowering hormone, the hormone is immediately converted to the active form. The far red light doesnt have to remain in contact with the plants longjust a few moments will do.
Photoperiodism is a localized effect. If you had a plant with two branches and one of the branches was given a flowering light regime while the other was given continuous light, the first branch would flower but the second would continue to grow vegetatively. Because the effect is localized, all parts of the plant must be reached with the far red light. Think of applying far red light as you would think of spraying water on the plant. The entire plant and all its vegetation must be dripping with water when you are done. It is in this manner that you have to spray the plant with invisible light. The spraying should take place each evening after dusk or after the lights have been turned off.

The Effects of Far red Light on Outdoor Gardens
(WARNING: THESE METHODS ARE BEING TESTED NOW. THE RESULTS WILL BE AVAILABLE LATER THIS YEAR.)
In an earlier article Project Haiku, I described how to force plants to flower early by covering them each day using an opaque curtain. They were harvested eight weeks after forcing began.
Far red light can substitute for the curtain tossing. In Northern California, where Project Haiku took place, June 22 is the longest day and shortest night of the year; the garden received 14¾ hours of light and 9¼ of darkness. The short dark period prevents flowering. Chemically, the inactive flowering hormone is taking its time, 2 hours worth, to convert to the active form. The plants are under the influence of the flowering hormone for only 7¼ hours, so the plant remains growing vegetatively.
When the plants are sprayed with far red light, the hormones convert over to the active form. If this is done daily at dusk, it gives the plants another two hours under the influence of the active hormone each day. This is a long enough period for them to be induced to grow buds and start flowering. So if a garden was forced in May it will ripen in July. A June forced garden, such as PH, is harvested in August
The main problem with using far red light is that it sometimes induces stem stretching. There is a solution: spray the plants with blue light. Blue light has been used for decades in a few commercial nurseries to keep plants compact and prevent stretching. Plant photoperiodism is not affected by the blue spectrum. After the plants are sprayed with far red light, a spray of blue light keeps the stems short and stocky.

Far red Light Indoors Gardens
(WARNING: FINAL RESULTS FROM THESE EXPERIMENTS HAVE NOT YET BEEN REPORTED)
The typical indoor flowering room spends 12 hours a day, half its time, in darkness. The positive side of this is that the dark period forces the plants to flower. The negative side is that while the plants are in darkness they dont photosynthesize.
A few growers have figured out their plants critical flowering time and increased the lit period by up to an hour and a half. Instead of spending 50% of their time in darkness, they spend only 44%. More importantly they luxuriate under the lights for another 6% of the time. Thats an increase of more than 12% of the lighted period. A corresponding increase in yield should follow.
Using an far red light spray followed by the blue light cuts down the need for as long a dark period as plants are normally given. Imagine if you could reduce the dark period by 2 hours, more than 16% of the lighted period.
If both techniques were used the lighted period would total up to 15½ hours, three and a half more hours each day for creating sugars and energy for growth. The final result: Bigger buds, and more of them.

found the link while reading the cannabis culture articles here,,,,,
http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/grow

Ed's site for the new book is here,,,,,,,
http://mjgrowers.com/book.htm

Nice to see that I am coming up with stuff that others are doing, think I am going to contact Ed and let him know

Danielsgb · Sep 4, 2010

Here is some more of the info I'm studying. From

Photochemistry and Photobiology Volume 46 Issue 2
UV-B RADIATION EFFECTS ON PHOTOSYNTHESIS, GROWTH and CANNABINOID PRODUCTION OF TWO Cannabis Sativa CHEMOTYPES
Daniels :weed:

Abstract

The effects of UV-B radiation on photosynthesis, growth and cannabinoid production of two greenhouse-grown C. sativa chemotypes (drug and fiber) were assessed. Terminal meristems of vegetative and reproductive tissues were irradiated for 40 days at a daily dose of 0, 6.7 or 13.4 kJ m-2 biologically effective UV-B radiation. Infrared gas analysis was used to measure the physiological response of mature leaves, whereas gas-liquid chromatography was used to determine the concentration of cannabinoids in leaf and floral tissue.

There were no significant physiological or morphological differences among UV-B treatments in either drug- or fiber-type plants. The concentration of Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (Δ9-THC), but not of other cannabinoids, in both leaf and floral tissues increased with UV-B dose in drug-type plants. None of the cannabinoids in fiber-type plants were affected by UV-B radiation.

The increased levels of Δ9-THC in leaves after irradiation may account for the physiological and morphological tolerance to UV-B radiation in the drug-type plants. However, fiber plants showed no comparable change in the level of cannabidiol (a cannabinoid with UV-B absorptive characteristics similar to Δ9 THC). Thus the contribution of cannabinoids as selective UV-B filters in C. sativa is equivocal.

Danielsgb · Sep 29, 2010

Here's more info I need. I'm drowning a plant soon. Tons of info from the Guru. For the record I called the first book.
Daniels :weed:

riddleme said:
I read this in another thread and wanted to copy it here as this is really good info from our friend Iam5toned as it relates to light leaks causing hermies (if you have read my threads you know how I feel about this)

here it is,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Originally Posted by IAm5toned
let me decide it for you man, not trying to be a smart ass about it either...

look out your window at night. is it pitch black? no.
lets pretend you can blame the fact its not pitch black on artificial light pollution (streetlamps, etc etc)
so lets head out into the wilderness... far far into the wilderness. is it pitch black at night? no.
lets head south to some of the tropical lattitudes... youll find that the closer you get to the equator, the brighter the night sky gets. this is really noticeable at sea. not like youd be growing on a ship, but just for examples sake. you will find that in most of cannabis' natural habitat, the starlight combined with the moonlight is bright enough to read by.
hmmmmmm..... makes you wonder why you dont have hermies in nature occurring on a more regular basis, doesnt it....

hermies caused by light leaks is kind of a myth. but it does happen.
let me explain a little further... bear with me on my layman's terms as well, its just easier for me to explain things in laymans terms to avoid confusion or misinterpretation.
if your growing indoors, its not natural. the normal limiting factors that are present in nature are simply not there in your indoor op. weaker plants that would normally die off in the wild thrive, because you do your best to provide the perfect enviroment. more often than not, the 'perfect enviroment' is too much for the plants, its not natural. theres no times of drought or shitty light or extreme temp swings to harden them up. you could compare it to raising a retarded pig and a normal pig, side by side in a closet. both will thrive, because you provide everything for them. however in the wild, its obvious the retarded pig wouldnt make it very far at all... for various reasons.
what this means, is that your prize plant that looks so nice and smells so nice might have the weakest genetics in your entire crop... but you would never know, untill something affects your 'perfect enviroment'... like a light leak... then, and only then, do the weaker genetics become apparent.

its not rocket science folks... its jr high level botany.

Thank you Iam5toned for putting it in an easy to understand post, good stuff

riddleme said:
I posted this to answer a question about hermies in another forum, thought it would be a good add here for all the folks that read this thread,I find it interesting that most do not understand that it can be totally NORMAL for hermies to happen,

here ya go,,,,,,,,,

THE marijuana GROWER'S GUIDE
by Mel Frank and Ed Rosenthal

Quote:
Sexual Variants in Cannabis
Cannabis has been studied for many years because of its unusual sexuality. Besides the normal dioecious pattern, where each plant bears exclusively male or female flowers, it is not uncommon for some plants to have both male and female flowers. These are called hermaphrodites, or monoecious plants, or intersexes. Hermaphroditic plants form normal flowers of both sexes in a wide variety of arrangements, in both random and uniform distributions.
Natural Hermaphrodites
Some hermaphrodites seem to be genetically determined (protogenous). That is, they naturally form flowers of both sexes given normal growing conditions. Possibly genes carried on the autosomes (the chromosomes other than the sex chromosomes) modify the normal sexual expression. Monoecious varieties have been developed by hemp breeders in order to ensure uniform harvests.
It is also possible that these particular are polyploid, which means they have more than the usual two sets of chromosomes. This kind of hermaphrodite may have XXY (triploid), or XXYY or XXXY (tetraploid) sex chromosomes. However, no naturally occurring polyploids have ever been verified (by observation of the chromosomes) in any population of Cannabis. Polyploids have been induced in Cannabis by using mutagens, such as the alkaloid colchicine.
Whatever then genetic explanation may be, one or more of these natural hermaphrodites may randomly appear in any garden. They are sometimes faster-maturing, have larger leaves, and are larger in overall size than their unisexual siblings. They usually form flowers of both sexes uniformly in time and distribution, and in some unusual patterns. For example, from Mexican seed, we have seen a plant on which separate flowering cluster consisted of both female and male flowers: and upper section of female flowers had upraised stigmas, and a lower section of male flowers dangled beneath the female flowers. In other plants from Mexican seed, the growing tips throughout the plant have female flowers; male flowers sprout from the leaf axils along the main stem and branches. Plants from "Thai" seed sometimes form male and female flowers on separate branches. Branches with female flowers tend to predominate, but branches having mostly male flowers are located throughout the plant.
Abnormal Flowers, Intersexes, Reversals
Gender is set in the new plant at the time of fertilisation by its inheritance of either the X or the Y chromosome from the male (staminate) plant. With germination of the seed, the environment comes into play. Heritage sets the genetic program, but the environment can influence how the program runs. (Sexual expression in Cannabis is delicately balanced between the two.) The photoperiod, for example, controls the plant's sequence of development. Also, the plant's metabolism and life processes are dependent on growing conditions. When the environment does not allow a balance to be maintained, the normal genetic program may not be followed. This is mirrored by abnormal growth or sexual expression.
{Figure 78. Upper left: Abnormal flowers. Lower left: Male flowers on afemale plant. Upper right: Sexes on separate branches. Lower right: Maleflower in female bud (reversing).}Abnormal Flowers
Abnormal sexual expression includes a whole range of possibilities. Individual flowers may form abnormally, and may contain varying degrees of both male and female flower parts. For instance, a male flower may bear a stigma; or an anther may protrude from the bracts of a female flower. Abnormally formed flowers are not often seen on healthy plants, although if one looks hard enough, a few may be found in most crops. When many of the flowers are abnormal, an improper photoperiod (coupled with poor health) is the most likely cause. Abnormal flowers sometimes form on marijuana grown out of season, such as with winter or spring crops grown under natural light.
Intersexes and Reversals Much more common than abnormally formed flowers is for the plant's sex to be confused. One may find an isolated male flower or two; or there may be many clusters of male flowers on an otherwise female plant, or vice versa. These plants are called intersexes (also hermaphrodites or monoecious plants). Intersexes due to environment causes differ from natural hermaphrodite in having random distributions and proportions of male and female flowers. In more extreme cases, a plant may completely reverse sex. For example, a female may flowers normally for several weeks, then put forth new, sparse growth, typical of the male, on which male flowers develop. The complete reversal from male flowering to female flowering also happens.
All other things being equal, the potency of intersexes and reversed plants is usually less than that of normal plants. If there are reversals or intersexes, both of the sexes will usually be affected. Female plants that reverse to male flowering show the biggest decline. Not only is the grass less potent, but the amount of marijuana harvested from male flowers is negligible compared to the amount of marijuana that can be harvested from a normal female. Plants that change from male to female flowering usually increase their potency, because of the growth of female flower bracts with their higher concentration of resin. Female flowers on male plants seldom form as thickly or vigorously as on a normal female. Between the loss in potency and the loss in yield because of females changing to males, a crop from such plants is usually inferior, in both yield and potency, to one from normal plants.
Environmental Effects
Many environmental factors can cause intersexes and sexual reversals. These include photoperiod, low light intensity, applications of ultraviolet light, low temperatures, mutilation or severe pruning, nutrient imbalances or deficiencies, senescence (old age), and applications of various chemicals (see bibliography on sex determination).
The photoperiod (or time of planting using natural light) is the most important factor to consider for normal flowering. In 1931, J. Schaffner (105) showed that the percentage of hemp plants that had confused sexual characteristics depended on the time of year they were planted. Normal flowering (less than five percent of the plants are intersexes) occurred when the seeds were sown in May, June, or July, the months when the photoperiod is longest and light intensity is strongest. When planted sooner or later in the year, the percentage of intersexuals increased steadily, until about 90 percent of the plants were intersexual when planted during November or early December.
marijuana plants need more time to develop than hemp plants at latitudes in the United States. Considering potency, size, and normal flowering, the best time to sow for the summer crop is during the month of April. Farmers in the south could start the plants as late as June and still expect fully developed plants.
If artificial light is used, the length of the photoperiod can influence sexual expression. Normal flowering, with about equal numbers of male and female plants, seems to occur when the photoperiod is from 15 to 17 hours of light for a period of three to five months. The photoperiod is then shortened to 12 hours to induce flowering. With longer photoperiods, from 18 to 24 hours a day, the ratio of males to females changes, depending on whether flowering is induced earlier or later in the plant's life. When the plants are grown with long photoperiods for six months or more, usually there are at least 10 percent more male then female plants. When flowering is induced within three months of age, more females develop. Actually, the "extra" males or females are reversed plants, but the reversals occur before the plants flower in their natural genders.
Some plants will flower normally without a cutting of the photoperiod. But more often, females will not form thick buds unless the light cycle is cut to a period of 12 hours duration. Don't make the light cycle any shorter than 12 hours, unless the females have not shown flowers after three weeks of 12-hour days. Then cut the light cycle to 11 hours. Flowers should appear in about one week.
Anytime the light cycle is cut to less than 11 hours, some intersexes or reversed plant usually develop. This fact leads to a procedure for increasing the numbers of female flowers indoors. The crops can be grown for three months under a long photoperiod (18 or more hours of light). The light cycle is then cut to 10 hours. Although the harvest is young (about five months) there will be many more female flower buds than with normal flowering. More plants will develop female flowers initially, and male plants usually reverse to females after a few weeks of flowering.
Of the other environmental factors that can affect sexual expression in Cannabis, none are as predictable as the photoperiod. Factors such as nutrients or pruning affect the plant's overall health and metabolism, and can be dealt with by two general thoughts. First, good growing conditions lead to healthy plants and normal flowering: female and male plants occur in about equal numbers, with few (if any) intersexes or reversed plants. Poor growing conditions lead to reduced health and vigour, and oftentimes to confused sex in the adult plant. Second, the age of the plants seems to influence reversals. Male plants often show female flowers when the plant is young (vigorous) during flowering. Females seven or more months old (weaker) often develop male flowers after flowering normally for a few weeks.
Anytime the plant's normal growth pattern is disrupted, normal flowering may be affected. For instance, plant propagated from cuttings sometimes reverse sex, as do those grown for more than one season.

the whole book can be read here,
http://www.marijuanagirls.com/Mariju...GrowGuide.html

Take note of the 10 hour lite cycle to induce more females,,,,,interesting stuff

riddleme said:
I am probably one of the most outspoken members here when it comes to removing leaves from our plants, I want to share this little ditty from

Marijuana Botany
An Advanced Study: The Propagation and Breeding of Distinctive Cannabis
by Robert Connell Clarke

whole thing available here
http://www.mellowgold.com/portugese/mjbotany-removed/marijuanabotany2.html

I wonder if the trend of pruning leaves would change if folks knew it could cause hermies???

Enjoy

riddleme said:
Ok the first of our 2 words is OXIDATION, I chose this word because as an electronics tech I am well aware of how oxidation causes things to decay, it is also what causes us to age and why anti-oxidents are important to human health.

knowing this I have always breathed into my curing jars once the buds get close to where I want them (I have mentioned in other threads on this site that I do this and others have chimed in that they do it as well) the reason I do this is twofold I am displacing the O2 in the jar with CO2 (slowing the oxidation process) and injecting minor/slight moisture which keeps the buds fresh. I have done this for years and even found that it improves the taste and potency of swag (it was part of what I did to improve my friends bad crop) After doing this research I have opened the door for so many new experiments, damn I'm gonna be busy LOL

Anyway the reason I seperated these post is because what I about to share is not truely related to the actual harvesting of plants but rather in the growth. Every link I am about to share came up when I googled "oxidation in plants" and it turns out that most of the internal growth processes involve oxidation. I am sharing these links because the info is pretty good though some of them are pretty heavily scientific, others break it down in more easily understood way, (together they give a whole picture) and I would say if you are trying to better understand a few things about growth processes then these will be good starter links to follow, here they are,,,,,,

this first one explains the oxidation/reduction process for those that don't know
http://www.scienceclarified.com/Oi-Ph/Oxidation-Reduction-Reaction.html

very in depth explanation of oxidation process in plants (pdf)
http://www.biochemj.org/bj/017/0515/0170515.pdf

oxidation of fatty acids in plants
http://www.uky.edu/~dhild/biochem/21/lect21.html

Glycolysis, energy releasing pathways
http://www.uic.edu/classes/bios/bios100/lecturesf04am/lect12.htm

very good explanation of plant hormones (read this one for sure)
http://www.plant-hormones.info/auxins.htm

flavanoids and oxidation (there is a pdf link at the bottom)
http://www.tesisenxarxa.net/TDX-0115108-112213/index_an.html

ditty on photosynthesis
http://www.whatislife.com/reader2/Metabolism/pathway/photosyn.html

photosynthesis & resporation
http://waynesword.palomar.edu/photsyn1.htm

metabolism
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/Chemistry-of-Energy-Use.topicArticleId-23791,articleId-23692.html

book preview
http://books.google.com/books?id=chWs4ewSzpEC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=oxidation+of+plants&source=bl&ots=tawsL19nkh&sig=BmtCq9vFMlB7QfJ1wJxONBgSuM4&hl=en&ei=0YUPTP3OCcnhnAft4fClDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQ6AEwADge#v=onepage&q=oxidation of plants&f=false

oxidation in soil (book preview)
http://books.google.com/books?id=bwze1vDkkH8C&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=oxidation+of+plants&source=bl&ots=aBHIMHbd6E&sig=ESTSl9SI6js6YuvWQ_s84r2A6pY&hl=en&ei=r4cPTI0KxvicB4qn8KsN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCMQ6AEwBTgo#v=onepage&q=oxidation of plants&f=false

explanation of sugars
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/organic/sugar.html

another explanation of oxidation in the photosynthesis process
http://www.ehow.com/about_6469086_reduced-oxidized-photosynthesis_.html

All good useful info that can help us better understand what our plants are doing

Stay Tuned

riddleme said:
The first word we used for this research was Oxidation, the second word is Fermentation as the fermentation process is what makes "the cure" work so understanding the fermentation process is very important.

Here at RIU there is a thread that includes a cut and paste from a book by Mel and Ed you all know I like Mels book I am not gonna paste it here as it is fairly long and this will be long enough as it is, but this same info appears on most every MJ forum and seems to be the basis for how we all cure today. It seems from my research that this was originally based on how tobaco is cured and we will get into that later, here is the RIU link to this info I advise you go read it then come back,,,,,,,,

https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/146512-harvesting-curing-drying-take-back.html

There is an old hippie growers myth that says to soak the roots in water for 3 to 10 days before harvest this is not to be confused with the flush that everyone talks about (you all know I don't flush before harvest, I flush always) the tip/myth is supposed to improve the quality of our smoke. I have to admit that I never paid it much attention until now because I have now proven it is not a myth and has some scientific validation.

What it amounts to is a way to start the cure prior to harvest while the plant is still alive. This is an incredible find as far as I am concerned and I can not wait to try it. what it amounts to is starving the plant of oxygen by drowning it, if in hydro take away the bubbles or spray fill the tank with water and wait, if in a pot either continuously water it (keep it wet/soaked) or stick the pot in a bigger bucket of water.

I need to add some background info as I'm getting ahead of myself, most of you know that if you add sugar and yeast together it ferments into alcohol giving off CO2. The basic definition of Fermentation is the act of breaking down sugars into alcohol and our plants do this internally thru a natural process even while growing. The act of fermentation is a oxidation/reduction process (explained in prior post) just as most plant functions seem to be. Also please be aware that N is needed for proper fermintation to take place.

Here is the info I found verifying that this old hippie myth is real,,,,,

found here,
http://www.biology-online.org/biology-forum/about16671.html

and,

found here,
http://chestofbooks.com/gardening-horticulture/Gardener-Monthly-V23/Alcoholic-Fermentation-In-Plants.html

one more
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/Anaerobic-Respiration-Fermentation.topicArticleId-23791,articleId-23703.html

I am giving you this info first as it relates to doing something prior to the actual harvest chop. The rest of what I found will bring everything that we find already posted in the harvest forum to a hopefully better understanding.

We as MJ growers have modified/refined the basic knowledge of curing and fermentation of other plants due to the fact that our buds are not leaves and are therefore more subceptable to mold but the basic premise is the same, we don't add to much heat because it is known to degrade THC. We don't maintain higher humidity levels to avoid mold. The piling of the plants to induce fermentation is the same concept that makes composting work and for us home growers this is why we use a paper bag or cardboard box because it creates a scaled down compost/fermentation chamber, with this in mind pay great attention to why it is necessary to check often and rotate/rearrange the buds during this part of the process. Also know that this process will also continue once you put your buds into jars.

I also want to point out that while it is easier to trim your buds before drying that leaving the leafs on and hanging the plant allows the leafs to dry formed around the bud to protect it from various things most importantly oxidation which we know degrades the THC. It also allows the buds to dry more slowly which is what we truely want to happen.
My friend Shrubs did this on his second harvest, now I know why.

Please remember that patience is a virtue the slower they dry the better they will be,,,,,,,,period. To many growers are in a hurry and as a result speed things up once you read all of the info I am about to present you will see what I am saying is true as I have (yes I have read all of it)

Next I am going to share several MJ specific links about harvesting & curing as more heads are always better than one and the whole of all of them put together creates a pretty solid picture for us to consider as we try to improve our techniques. a couple of them even explain how to add flavors in case anyone wants to experiment a bit.

Here they are in no particular order
http://www.wietmeneer.nl/growing/haze.html

http://forum.grasscity.com/harvesting-processing/162435-how-cure-crop-marijuana-more.html

http://www.sky.org/data/grow/c21.html

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php/7186-Curing-As-suggested-by-Mel-Frank-amp-Ed-Rosenthal

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/harvest-preparation-curing/53606-harvesting-drying-curing.html

http://forum.sensiseeds.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=5836

http://www.seedbankupdate.com/cure.htm

I am including the following links because they explain how other plants are cured in various different ways for color and taste this info will not only help us to better understand the various processes but may offer ideas for future experiments that might create a better end product. what you will see is while the techniques vary a bit they are all very similar.

Cacao (chocolate)
http://www.allchocolate.com/understanding/how_chocolate_is_made/tree_to_factory.aspx

Tea
http://www.wtea.com/about-tea_growth.aspx

http://the-leaf.org/issue 2/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/oxidation-fermentation-in-tea-manufacture-single-page-layout.pdf

Tobacco
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco#Curing

http://books.google.com/books?id=9c8RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA576&lpg=PA576&dq=fermentation+in+plants+drying+curing&source=bl&ots=clDgfMfGI7&sig=XUOCCUvxjZPWmtD280vTTfMN1cA&hl=en&ei=fysQTNuuMcf8nAeUp5ysDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=fermentation in plants drying curing&f=false

http://www.cigars4dummies.com/tobacco-curing/drying.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=4sopAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA3-PA78&lpg=RA3-PA78&dq=fermentation+in+plants+drying+curing&source=bl&ots=LaNqGxtUkh&sig=qNhzhgGXSowy7I4vvFUyWXtvFok&hl=en&ei=7zgQTM2qG4ztnQeBmuS8DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CDQQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=fermentation in plants drying curing&f=false

http://chestofbooks.com/health/materia-medica-drugs/A-Practitioner-Handbook-Of-Materia-Medica-and-Therapeutics/Green-Plant-Tinctures.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=A1IaAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=fermentation+in+plants+drying+curing&source=bl&ots=WDBE5ezoYA&sig=wfmo_XEqV6WEfYlhnCeBBgqeE8I&hl=en&ei=d0sQTKvrOYqmnQfyuPmpDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDIQ6AEwCTgy#v=onepage&q=fermentation in plants drying curing&f=false

lots of other plants
http://bookshop.cabi.org/Uploads/Books/PDF/9781845933562/9781845933562.pdf

We're almost finished, I found a couple more things that I know will spark your DIY talents for technique tweaking LOL

Here is a homemade drying chamber
http://www.coffinails.com/curing_tobacco.html

here is a homemade fermentation chamber
http://www.instructables.com/id/Tobacco-fermentation-curing-chamber-for-cigars/

in the comments section they mention an egg incubator that has adjustable heat and humidity for around $70, here it is
https://www.gqfmfg.com/store/comersus_listOneCategory.asp?idCategory=29#

and that brings us to the end of my research. I spent about 20 hours on all of this but you should be able to follow it all in just 2 or 3 since I was going thru 100's of pages to find the ones I have posted

I hope that everyone that reads this comes away with a better understanding of how it all works and that as a result we all have better herb to enjoy in the future

Happy Harvesting

Danielsgb said:
Got caught up this morning to reading this. GREAT job. I will have to keep looking at the links cause that's a ton to read Since you took the dozens of hours, I'll put in a few till I get it absorbed. I can already tell you 1 of the 2 Fridge Queens is getting the O2 starving technique. The 2 are nearly identical, topped the same, fed the same nute combos, so this will be a good experiment. Once again kiss-ass for all the work you put into this. Write a book and I'll buy one. I've read Mel Franks a couple (maybe 3) times, but this clarifies everything more.
Daniels

riddleme said:
Woo Hoo my first customer, better get writin ay?

verifying information is a bitch sometines but I love doing research as I love learnin and understanding things

when I can validate or disprove a myth I get excited cause I know the impact it can have

in the end there is nothing that compares to a labor of love for human happiness

looking forward to your side by side, should be interesting

riddleme said:
I am all about quality and medical, I have no interest in commercial production, therefore I do not chop early and I allow my curing process to go VERY slow all of the known, popular ways of curing are based on speeding the process up to turn a faster profit, they say let it dry for 7 days and I say let it dry for 3 to 6 weeks, you control this via temp & humidity and it is VERY IMPORTANT that you check for mold often (I think this is the 2nd reason for speeding things up, folks are naturally lazy)

I learned a lot of my tricks from you guessed it an old hippie farmer his shit sold for $100 a gram over 20 years ago, those grams used to last me a month as literaly a pinch (1 hit) would put me down for 6 hours

You want to leave all the leafs on, you want it to hang dry untill the leafs change color (green goes away) once this happens you can trim and jar em, it is this change in color occuring that lets you know proper curing (fermentation) is taking place, the drowning to start this process while alive assures it has started and will continue once you chop and that remaining nutes in the plant will be used up in this process

Danielsgb · Oct 5, 2010

Never ending info to take into account
Daniels :weed:

tahoe58 said:
this is an "example chart" for the daily max. UV for western Canada..... you know what I find weird OR maybe not so weird....the peak is in June/July....but then again the peak comes from the longest days (June and July)....this means that for AU its prolly similar - except Dec/Jan....which means that in CA....the highest UV is NOT at flowering and budding but during the intial vege growth?

maybe more telling is the UV annual max in Alert, Nunavut - the most northerly community in North America...

skunkushybrid said:
Yes, during the veg' stage... but the plant can triple in height during the flower stage and has to do much more. That's what I meant when I said trich's are there to harness dwindling light.

I'm assuming that the trich's are a response to this...

The cannabinoids are a different subject, at least to my mind. Obviously light of varying spectrum is needed to create them, and there are two cells inside the trich that do two different things... or release two different chemicals.

I believe though that the two main chemicals of cannabis are THCV and CBN. These two chemicals seem the most likely to actually be produced within the plant itself. It then pushes these chemicals into the two cells of the trichome. These react with the two different spectrums, creating THC and CBD.

I'm not sure on the CBN-CBD part. It may well be the other way around... unless CBN reacts quicker to turn into CBD, and THCV slower to turn to THC.

I'm struggling with this, as I believe that the chemicals were originally an attractant for prey. It makes sense then that THCV was used to entice the prey in, and then CBD used to knock the prey out...

skunkushybrid said:
I don't know tahoe, I think I'm starting to see things much more clearly now. When I said the trich's are a response to low light levels, I suppose this means the plant uses energy stored during the day to produce the trich's. Also that these trich's are not very potent.

It takes quality of light to give them potency.

I still think potency is down to light intensity. Whether that be red or blue, except for the far ends of the spectrum. Although important too they are going to take much more management.
It seems the more intense the blue, the more THC we get. The more intense the red, the more cbd. There are two chemicals in the trich head that react to light...

skunkushybrid said:
light intensity from both ranges could still be the plants total goal in life... and UV have little to do with the plants flowering
development. There is less UV around when the plant is flowering, which will likewise be magnified into the plant (unless the trich' actually reflects UV)... and we're assuming that this is where the potency is made, from a reaction in either of the cells in the head of the trich.

What if the light is magnified through the head and in between the cells, and down the narrow tube of the trich stem and into the plant itself? The plant then processes all this energy and this governs how many trich's it will produce the next night. The cells in the trichs are merely there to pump out the necessary chemicals to attract nitrogen-giving animal life. Doubtless, the broader the spectrum we have will add flavour and potency to the bud. Therefore it is merely light intensity we are after, and not particularly UV.
Another point on the sticky trich's... if they're so sticky that a fly will stick to them, get drugged up and die on the leaf. Is it possible for cannabis to foliar feed from the rotting corpse?

tahoe58 said:
thanks man...a couple of thoughts....

1. you say .....assuming that this is where potency is made.... is this not stated in the chemical ecology of cannabis.....or am I taking statement for measured/known fact....and should be theory?

2. I have been always thikning that the stock was the transport mechanism....as we have the paper that YGF orginally put forward regarding the yellow pigment and the correction in chromatic abberation for lbue light?

3. as Item 1. I think there is already scientific evidence that uv plays a role....it just might be a different role than we (or at least me) was thinking?

wow....I keep going on about this....but I am so fascinted by these discussions...

I'm fascinated too. :weed:

Danielsgb · Oct 6, 2010

Never even thought about this.
Daniels :weed:

The author, a 68-year-old medical marijuana patient and autodidact, updates the
literature with addenda to Clarke's Botany and Ecology of Cannabis.

MARIJUANA OPTICS: An elaboration of the phytochemical process that makes THC
The resin exuded by the glandular trichome forms a sphere(1) that encases the
head cells(2).
When the resin spheres are separated from the plant material by electrostatic(3)
attraction and placed on a microscope slide illuminated with a 100W
incandescent bulb, they appear very dark when observed through a 300X
microscope. Since orange, red, and infrared are the component wavelengths of
incandescent light, and since the absorption of light makes an object dark or
opaque to the frequency of the incoming wave, one can conclude that these
wavelengths are probably not directly involved in energizing the cannabinoid
pathway(4).
However, the resin sphere is transparent to ultraviolet radiation(5).
The author found through trial and error that only one glandular trichome(6)
exhibits the phytochemical process that will produce the amount of THC
associated with pain relief, appetite stimulation and anti-nausea; euphoria and
hallucinations are undesirable side-effects, however. This trichome is triggered
into growth by either of the two ways that the floral bract turns into fruit(7).
Of all the ways that optics are involved in the phytochemical production of THC,
the most interesting has to be how the head cells and cannabinoid molecules
are tremendously magnified(

by the resin sphere. These and other facts are
curiously absent from the literature. Except for transmutation and turning base
metals into gold, there has been more nonsense written about marijuana than on
any other subject. The footnotes are the author's effort to rectify this sitiuation
and update the literature to include, to name just two, electrostatic separation of
the resin sphere from the dried plant material and marijuana parthenocarpy.
(1)"For all spheres, a ray drawn perpendicular to the sphere's surface will
intersect the center of the sphere, no matter what spot on the surface is picked,
and the magnifying power of a glass sphere is greater the smaller its size:
l=333/d, where l is the magnifiying power and d is the diameter of the sphere
expressed in mm. For example, a sphere of 1.66 mm of diameter will obtain
about a magnification of 200X. Because of its small dimension, it is very
powerful and must be kept at a distance of few tenths of a millimeter from the
objects to be observed to be in focus. A sphere of glass can also bring light that
is heading to a focus behind it to a point within it, with freedom from two
aberrations, spherial aberration and coma, but not from chromatic aberration.
Chromatic aberration results when different wavelengths are focused on different
planes and is the most difficult of the aberrations to correct. The human eye
lens also exhibits chromatic aberration, but a yellow pigment called the macula
lutea in the fovea, an area at the rear of the eyeball, corrects this problem by the
way it absorbs blue light."
Interestingly, the resin exuded by drug-type flowering female marijuana
plants has a yellow tint. This pigment could work to correct chromatic aberration
in the resin sphere like the macula lutea does in the fovea for the eyeball.
(2)Quoting from the Mahlberg and Kim study of hemp(a) "THC accumulated in
abundance in the secretory cavity where it was associated with the: a) cell walls,
b) surface feature of secretory vesicles, c) fibrillar material released from disc
cell wall, and d) cuticle. It was not associated with the content of the secretory
vesicles."
(a)http://www.industrialhemp.net/mydomain/hempreport/issues/17/malbody17.html
The head cells are encased in the resin sphere and travel with it whether
dislodged or dissolved.
(3)The electrostatic collection of the resin spheres from dried marijuana plants
with plenty of ripe seeds has been for hundreds of years the method indigenous
people of North Africa and Lebanon have used to make hashish. Obtain a round
metal can 8" or so in diamenter x 3" or so in depth (the kind that cookies come
in) with a smooth lid. Obtain 2 ounces of dried marijuana with plenty of ripe
seeds in the tops. To remove the seeds and stems, sift the marijuana tops
through a 10-hole-to-the-inch wire kitchen strainer into the can. Close the can
with the lid and vigorously shake the closed can three or four times. This gives
the resin spheres an excess negative charge. Let the can sit for a moment and
then remove the lid. Opposites attract. The negative-charged resin spheres
have been attracted to the metal surface of the can and lid which has an positive
charge. Take a matchbook cover or credit card and draw the edge across the
surface of the lid. Note the collected powder. Observed under 300X
magnification, the collected powder from this "shake" is composed of resin
spheres with an occasional non-glandular trichome. As the marijuana is shaken
again and again, and more of the resin spheres are removed from the plant
material, the powder eventually turns from tan to green, and the non-glandular
trichome has become more numerous than the resin sphere.
(4)"Cannabinoids represent a dimer consisting of a terpene and a phenol
component. Cannabigerol (CBG) is the first component of the pathway. It
undergoes chemical change to form either cannabichromene (CBC), or
cannabidiol (CBD). Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is derived from CBD."
(5)"Pate (1983) indicated that in areas of high ultraviolet radiation exposure, the
UVB (280-320 nm) absorption properties of THC may have conferred an
evolutionary advantage to Cannabis capable of greater production of this
compound from biogenetic precursor CBD. The extent to which this production
is also influenced by environmental UVB has also been experimentally
determined by Lydon et al. (1987)." The author's own experience allow for a
more specific conclusion: If the UVB photon is missing from the light stream(a),
or the intensity as expressed in μW/cm2 falls below a certain level(b), the
phytochemical process will not be completely energized with only UVA photons
which are more penetrating but less energetic, and the harvested resin spheres
will have mostly precursor compounds and not fully realized THC(c).
(a)Examples of an environment where the UVB photon would be missing
from the light stream include all indoor cultivation illuminated by mercury or
sodium lamps and in glass, polyethelene or fiberglass covered greenhouses.
(b)"The maximum UVB irradiance near the equator (solar elevation angle
<25 deg.) under clear, sunny skies is about 250 μW/cm2. It was observed that
the daily solar UVB in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia (24.4 deg. N) decreased from
September to December by about 40% (Hannan et al. 1984). The further a
person is from the tropics, the less UV radiation there is: the average annual
exposure of a person living in Hawaii is approximately four times that of
someone living in northern Europe."
(c)Cannabinoid pathway: Anywhere in this pathway UVB does a better job
than UVA in energizing a photochemical reaction that will produce more fully
realized THC, because "all cannabinolic compounds show an absorption
maximum between 270 and 280 nm in the ultraviolet region."
(6)Capitate-stalked glandular trichome.
(7)#1) The ovum has been fertilized and there is a seed developing. In the
areas of the Northern Hemisphere where indigenous people have grown
heterozygous drug-type marijuana for hundreds of years, male pollen is used to
trigger the growth of the capitate-stalked glandular trichome on the floral bract
and concomitant leaves of the flowering females by fertilization and seed set
before the autumnal equinox(a) so the majority of seeds will be ripe(b) by the
middle of October at the latest or #2) The floral bract has become
parthenocarpic: Parthenocarpic fruits develop without fertilization and have no
seeds. In marijuana parthenocarpy, the floral bract (the fruit) develops in size as
though there were a seed growing inside, and the capitate-stalked glandular
trichome is triggered into growth on the floral bract and concomitant leaves.
Most popular supermarket tomatoes are parthenocarpic which was induced
artificially by the application of dilute hormone sprays (such as auxins) to the
flowers. In a trial, marijuana parthenocarpy was not induced by the application
of the spray used on tomatoes. Only the photoperiod will trigger parthenocarpy
in flowering female marijuana plants. The longest photoperiod that will
trigger parthenocarpy in unfertilized flowering homozygous(c) Indica
female marijuana plants is 13 hours, give or take 15 minutes. Out-of-doors,
the same effect can be obtained in the month of August at 35 N, and because
the capitate-stalked glandular trichomes received plenty of UVB during this
month at this latitude, the harvested resin spheres had fully realized THC.
Rating: euphoria and hallucinations, major appetite boost and pain relief, deep
dreamless sleep. These plants seldom grow taller than four feet but potency
makes up for the reduced harvest. This gene pool is the basis for the
"sensimillia" myth and no other gene pool will fit the bill which is why a lot of
so-called "sensimillia" has so little THC. The longest photoperiod that will
trigger parthenocarpy in unfertilized flowering heterozygous female
marijuana plants is 11 hours, give or take 15 minutes. Out-of-doors, the
same effect can be obtained in the month of November at 35 deg. N. The
harvested resin spheres evidenced slightly more THC than precursor
compounds. Rating: mild to medium euphoria, appetite boost and pain relief,
good snooze. This may be the outdoor photoperiod that will produce a
parthenocarpic marijuana best suited for medical use because of mild euphoria
and no hallucinations as a result of the low level of UVB in sunlight at this
latitude in November. All unfertilized flowering female marijuana plants will
become parthenocarpic in a 9-hour photoperiod (15-hour dark period).
Out-of-doors, the same effect can be obtained in the month of December at
35 deg. N. At this latitude in this month there is not enough UVB in sunlight for
precursor vitamin D3 to develop in human skin. The phytochemical process will
not produce fully realized THC when UVB falls below a certain level of intensity
as expressed in μW/cm2. Rating: no euphoria, hallucinations, appetite boost,
pain relief, sleep aid.
(a)In the Northern Hemisphere latitudes above 30 deg. N, the key to all
marijuana potency is this: The more days of sunlight the capitate-stalked
glandular trichomes' resin spheres accumulate before the autumnal equinox the
more fully realized THC.
(b)It is recognized in the indigenous world that drug-type marijuana with a
majority of ripe seeds will produce more euphoria, hallucinations, appetite
stimulation, pain relief, and sleep aid than with a majority of unripe seeds. The
amount of time it takes for the majority of seeds to ripen is three to four weeks.
(c)Homozygous is loosely used here. Even though marijuana is normally
a monoecious plant, unfertilized Indica flowering females can have both anther
and stigma growing from a floral bract. This phenomenon can be forced with a
10-hour photoperiod. In the Indica gene pool, this female pollen carries an allele
for long-day parthenocarpy (parthenocarpy occurring before the autumnal
equinox the author considers "long-day," and parthenocarpy occurring after the
autumnal equinox is considered "short-day"). This female pollen and its allele
for long-day parthenocarpy is carried into the gene pool by self-pollination and
cross-pollination. In areas of India, where the capitate-stalked glandular
trichome is triggered into growth by parthenocarpy rather than by fertilized
ovum, great care is taken to make sure that all male marijuana plants are
destroyed as soon as they reveal their sex. This is to insure that only female
pollen will be floating around locally to attach to stigma. Seeds resulting from
this female pollen will produce another generation of female plants that will
exhibit long-day parthenocarpy during flowering. But if pollen from male plants
is introduced into this gene pool, the resulting seeds will produce a generation of
females that will exhibit short-day parthenocarpy instead.
(

The author has more questions than answers about the resin spheres'
magnifying power and how that relates to the phytochemical processs involved
in the cannabinoid pathway.

riddleme · Oct 6, 2010

Very interesting find, like me you are looking for the truth, very nice

Danielsgb · Oct 6, 2010

riddleme said:
Very interesting find, like me you are looking for the truth, very nice

The sphere shape of a resin gland as a magnifying glass. :!:

So much to consider probing for keys in this Cannabis and it's genetic potential. Nothing is Black and White. So many different chemical processes going on. :idea:

What do you think about your breeding and it's being under the CMH's and UV vs. an HPS (& it's lack of UV-B) I'm delving into stuff about that. Might be something to it. Will your seeds be able to deal with UV-B better, or several generations later, as I can see. Population size comes into play of course. Jumping ahead a ways but seems logical. :leaf:

Daniels

Danielsgb · Oct 6, 2010

Never ending stuff to look at. So UV is highest at noon.
Daniels :weed:

psyclone said:
can't get out of my head the thought that Moonlight is missing from my plants schedule- 6 weeks of moonlit nights in fact, and I am sure I read somewhere that moonlight is(quite) high in UV. My local Aquarium shop sells an actinic moon light simulator, it's peak emission is 300nm. yes I bought it. it covers 1m2 with ambient moonlight, so a couple of hours a night 1 week a month will be tried on some cuttings that are in 12/12.

tahoe58 said:
the moonlight thing sounds interesting....I too will be interested in this...ahhhh the complexity of nature and all its cogs and components.....makes me think like we could prolly model our climate really accurately! oh right....they're already doing that!

on a different note, I found this thread, and am currently reading it....will post more again later tonight...

UVB light and its effect on THC prodcution - UKCultivator

TAKEN FROM THAT THRED.......some fella on ukc( was it greenman ?) told of his experience with a 300watt osram uvb bulb, 3 sessions of 25mins a day and he had billions of more trichs than without uvb,, uhmm i looked around for the light , found it , but it was a little pricey, and 300watts.

Sharma (1975) reported a greater glandular trichome density on leaves of Cannabis growing in xeric circumstances. Paris et al. (1975a) have demonstrated a marked increase in the cannabinoid content of Cannabis pollen with decreased humidity. Murari et al. (1983) grew a range of Cannabis fiber cultivars in three climatic zones of Italy and found higher THC levels in those plants grown in the drier "continental" (versus "maritime") climate. Hakim et al. (1986) report that CBD-rich English Cannabis devoid of THC produced significant amounts of THC and less CBD, when grown in the Sudan. This trend was accentuated in their next generation of plants.

tahoe58 said:
ok...well continuing my search for a better understanding of what we might be shooting for in terms of UVB delivery and intensity. I have found the following: natural sunlight UVB delivery at the Equator is 265 microwatts/cm2. this can be favourably compared to several different UVB lights on the market including T-Rex Active UVHeat (UVB and heat), MegaRay mercury vapor (UVB only), ZooMeds Powersun UVHeat (UVB, UVA and heat), and some others....fluorescents generally produce very little UVB but also UVA (and generally at a rate double their UVB).

UV radiation represents only 4.6% of the solar spectrum, the other component being visible (45%) and infrared light (50%).

The irradiation is the radiation energy incident over a specific area for a given period of time. It is expressed either in W*s /m2, Joule/m2 or very often in Langley (Ly).

1 Ly = 1 cal/cm2 = 4.184 E4 Joule/m2

The following are some example of irradition val;ues for various notable marijuana producing countries: Pakistan and Afganhistan (180); Nepal, Jamaica, South Africa, Mexico and Morocco (160); Thailand (140) as compared to Canada (100) and the UK (70). The highest values (in the table I looked at....Sudan (220) and Bahrain, Egypt, Mali, Saudi Arabia, Niger (200) - all, in my view either too dry or too wet?

it only math....but I'm not into trying to figure out what will work best right now. the 160W T-Rex Active UVHeat have the appropriate measure of microwatt/cm2....250-300 @ 18-24"

I looked for your bulb Skunk.....Osram 300W Flood.....but it is not in the chart that I found? I'm gonna keep looking to see what else I can figure out here.....

tahoe58 said:
some more background info coming ur way....

Sunlight in tropical and sub-tropical regions has UVB levels typically rising to 300-400 uW/cm² (with a UV Index of about 7 - 10) by mid-day. On a clear day, levels may rise to above 100 uW/cm² (UV Index 1.5 - 2) within two hours of sunrise. Even in the shade or under overcast skies, 100 uW/cm² or more may be recorded throughout the middle of the day. (1, 2)

Until relatively recently, few artificial sources provided anything but very low intensity UVB at short range.(7) Specialist fluorescent tubes marketed for reptiles, described as 5% or 8% UVB, for example, when new typically emit only 15 25 uW/cm² at 12 inches.(8)

Types of MV Lights- All in one UVB and Heat (Floods expand UVB under and outward/Spots concentrate directly underneath them).

Powersun UV made by Zoo Med (Shown in use in Figure 3) This is the easier to find UVB MV light on the market, some pet stores carry them and they are usually available at Expos/shows. They have excellent customer service should you experience early burn out. They are available in 100 watt and 160 watt Flood designs. We used the Flood for most of our enclosures. This is the least expensive of the UVB MV lights.
Powersun UV 100 watt at ReptileSupply.com
Powersun UV 160 watt at ReptileSupply.com

Active UV Heat by T-Rex This light has a stronger UVB output than the Powersun, cost a bit more, but in our opinion, worth it. Harder to find locally, it is available online many places and you can click on the links below to order. Available in 100 watt and 160 watts, Flood and Spot models. Customer Service is good, not as liberal with replacement cost as the Powersun.
T-Rex Active UV Heat Flood - 100 watt at ReptileSupply.com
T-Rex Active UV Heat Spot - 100 watt at ReptileSupply.com

Active UVHeat from Wild Inside This company has like the T-Rex Lights, but customer service has never been good for us. They do have a external ballast 60 watt light that is not available from T-Rex or Zoo-Med for smaller enclosures.
Product Photo not available

Mega-Ray (Figure 4) from ReptileUV by Mac Industries/Westron Lighting This company has put it all together for us, avid owners of reptiles themselves, they sought out the best, improved on it, produced companion items and all with the *best* customer service of any company. They have Self Ballast lights available in 100 watt/160 watt Flood and the External Ballast in Low, Flood and Zoo quality. Additionally they have produced what we think is the best and safest Heat Emitter around. This new design uses less wattage to produce the required heat and with the added feature of protection so the animals are safe. The owner is available for consultation of your requirements for heat or UVB, by email or phone and actually prefers you contact him and start out with the proper lights.

skunkushybrid said:
Thanks for the link, and 'm so impressed with what i read I felt compelled to steal it:

After germination, seedlings follow one of two developmental patterns. Skotomorphogenesis (or etiolation) in the dark is characterized by long hypocotyls, closed cotyledons protected by apical hooks in A. thaliana, and the development of proplastids into etioplasts. By contrast, growth in the light results in photomorphogenesis (or de-etiolation) characterized by short hypocotyls, expanded open cotyledons and the development of mature green chloroplasts that can photosynthesize. A wide spectrum of light, in particular far-red, red, blue and ultraviolet (UV) light conditions, induces photomorphogenesis. PHYA is the primary photoreceptor under far-red light in A. thaliana, whereas PHYB has a major role under white or red light with the aid of PHYA, PHYC and PHYD. Rice PHYA and PHYB equally contribute to seedling photomorphogenesis under red light and both rice PHYA and PHYC are involved in far-red light responses148. Both CRY1 and CRY2 cryptochromes are responsible for photomorphogenesis under blue and UVA light.
When plants grow in close proximity there is competition for light. Higher plants have evolved an impressive capacity to avoid shade. A plant canopy is associated with a reduction in the ratio of red:far-red light. Changes in the red:far-red ratio are detected as a change in the relative proportions of Pr and Pfr forms of phytochromes and PHYB has the most significant role5.
The perception of photoperiod (or day length) is crucial for plants to adjust their development to fit into annual seasonal changes. The interaction of light signals with intrinsic circadian rhythms measures changes in day length. In A. thaliana, both phytochromes and cryptochromes contribute to synchronizing the circadian clock. The perception of day length is an important signal in the control of flowering.
Several other transient developmental processes, including phototropism, chloroplast movement and stomatal opening, are under light control mainly through phototropins146. These rapid light-responsive processes are not under extensive transcriptional regulation, and are therefore beyond the scope of this Review

tahoe58 said:
there are four quadrants in the knowledge quadrant.....amazing eh? sorry...that was a stupid sentence....

1. don't know, and don't know you don't know - this is the territory of the teenager
2. don't know and know you don't know - the transition from ignorance to enlightened ignorance
3. know and don't know you know - transition from enlightened ignorance to enlightenment
4. know and know you know - informed confidence

Danielsgb · Oct 6, 2010

On to seeds and future generations.
Daniels :weed:

potroast said:
Well, I talked to The Man about this last night, the Guru of Ganja, Ed Rosenthal. He said that UV is useful in the last 10 days of flowering, and since HPS spectrum has none, to switch your HPS to a MH for the last 10 days. Or add a UV lamp for the last 10 days. He said it will increase trichome development, and cause higher potency. He suggested tanning bed lamps.

BTW Ed and I smoked a whole lot of pot!

HTH

tahoe58 said:
the idea of only the last 10 days of flowering is an interesting thought. From a pure physiological perspective, it would seem logical that more consistent and longer term exposure would enhance the plant's ability to accommodate this type of light. However, if in fact the production of trichomes is a stressor response, then maybe only the last period is important. in fact, keeping the plant unexposed would further the stressor response by ONLY exposing in the last days - increasing the trichome production in response to an unusual circumstance and therefore more significant stress. And then the production of THC (as a function of the UV light and precursor compounds) would also be increased.

My current thinking is leading my to using a combination of both MH/HPS bulbs and UV specific bulb. This will be a forthcoming project - I need to finish what I am doing first. I do believe this does warrant some experimental effort though.

tahoe58 said:
I think it is time for a look back...to look forward with a clearer path - at the beginning of this thread I asked three questions - maybe it is valuable to go back through all of this material and see what has been learned so far (so I went back and read the entire thread all over again.....):

Q1. if UV in ionisers is used for odour control, will high UV light conditions (high altitudes) also influence odour which has been postulated to have important functionality in the life cycle of cannabis?

there is very little that has come forward on this issue. reference has been made to THCV as the source of the smell. I expect that the smell is from the volatility of these terpenes (cannabinoids), higher terpene levels, greater smell - higher concentration of trichomes, higher terpenes? but it still is not clear to me that - if uv ionisers are used in odour control...how do we reconcile that with the higher trichome count?

Q2. should/could we maybe consider the introduction of a highly limited level of exposure to UVB to enhance resin production while within the limited of phytological degradation?

there is a lot of info provided by all posters on this issue, incuding some commitments to do some test procedures. the subjects varied, and included increases in defensive enzyme production, the value in meters and measuring UV light, and cautions regarding the risks of uv light (cancer, eye damage). The more I search and read (and a good bulk of the info is related to the early 90's when concern over the ozone hole had everyone wondering what was going to happen to terrestrial ecosystems from the added UV light), the more evidence (mostly anecdotal and some scientific) there is to confirming some positive value in UV light. I believe we have made some progress in at least understanding the fundamentals of this, but require some speicfic experimental evidence to better to support our theories. I hope we get some good feedback from those have said they will move forward with their own test program.

Q3. do we need to take a closer look at the true comparison of the growth potential/potency of using HPS vs. MH vs. MV lights? Have we been incurring a limitation to potency by using HPS lighting for flowering?

again, we have theoretical evidence that this may be true, but experimental evidence is required to further understand the realities. it seems there is some support for the notion that MH may produce higher quality bud with a compromise on yeild/speed. UV does seem to have some support for better bud quality. It is my belief that the move towards HPS has been driven by the "commercially important " yeild and speed objectives - and maybe unknowingly resulted in some quality consequences. However, this is far from unequivocal. there remain conflicting views. further work is needed. I am inclined to explore the option of combining MH/HPS/UV in some as yet undetermined arrangement. this will not deal with the +/- twelve days of dark (without moonlight) that outdoor plants get....during the typical moon cycle? or does that just make things even more complicated. There has even been some discussion about UV LEDs....however, my information indicates that these do not got to the UVB range and only the UVA range, and if true, will not contribute in a way that we currently understand.

Your Grandfather said:
In Ed's first book, he expounded about how plants have their environment encoded into their DNA and if one was going to be successful at growing, you had to, as best as possible, replicate the environment it was used to growing in.

Okay, hang with me, I've got a good buzz and am thinking clearly.... we _ as people _ are similar to plants in many ways. We need water, light, nutes. We get injured and repair ourselves, etc. Over time, our ancestors who resided at/near the equatorial areas had their skin develop darker pigment because of exposure to the sun/uv. This is a fact.

Therefore, it also stands to reason that plants grown in these areas are more potent because of their exposure to the same conditions. Sun/uv.

We have _ over the last 30 years become quite proficient in replicating a number of the key elements to successfully grow indoors.... I still believe the absolute best weed I've ever smoked consistently comes from outdoors, and quite a few had seeds. I digress.... we have lights that go far beyond my original 'Power-Twist' floro's, we have nutes, PPM meters. But we don't have much uv.

So, this rant is about the Darwin-ism of the plant. If we expose the White Widow, Super Silver Haze, and other premium indoor strained to constant uv, at levels which had not been present before.....Will the plant, like us, develop dark skin _ more THC?

rant off/

Your Grandfather said:
I'm exposing _ did I just use that word _ that we need to inject uv into the grow, and at such levels which cause a Darwinian response. Meaning, the plant will genetically produce more THC _ sunscreen or turn it's skin dark, for the people analogy _ in subsequent generations. If I expose a mother to uvB, she adjusts and imparts that adjusted 'know how' into the seeds, if nothing else she tells the seeds "Get read for more UV than past generations so be prepared to produce more THC"

tahoe58 said:
there are a couple....the one that Skunk is using is that range....thought I believe also UVA....and the MegaRay bulbs 100W and 160W are also very suitable. I believe I am going to get that is I can find it....

skunkushybrid said:
Does thc have a colour?

I'm thinking I need a powerful microscope.

I don't believe thc is a protectant from UV...

If it were the case that UV somehow works to protect the plant from UV then exposing a young seedling to high levels would force the seedling to produce early trichomes... else suffer irrepairable damage.

The plants 'skin' may well change colour, or even form some sort of protective sheen to repel the harmful light.

In the evolution of the trichome thread it was reasoned that trichomes draw in light... and cannabis loves light. It'll even grow under an incandescent if that's all you've got. Halogen if you can find a way to get rid of the excess heat...

We also need to remember that the places with the most UV are also the places that are hotter, with more intense light from across the spectrum.

I feel that while there is still another side to the coin then it must be said. UV may change cannabis on a molecular level but we have no way of knowing if this will change for the better.

Your Grandfather said:
If we have a strain _ Super Silver Haze (I'm jut picking a name). And the genetic makeup of SSH is such, that it has always been grown indoors.

We know that indoor growing does not have the amount of uv which outdoors does.

So, here is my argument (and this is based on the premise that more UV=more THC) - if we take that SSH seed, and expose it and it's offspring to more UV, than historically the plant has received. I believe then if we plant 10 seeds from the harvest and then 10 seeds from each subsequent harvest. At some point in the lineage the seeds will have genetic encoding that says "These seeds are expectant of more uv" than seeds which were not exposed to the uv over the generations.

Rocky Mountain High said:
12-22-2007 wow this shits deep for my newbie ass. But I can see the logic, it's simply evolution. It takes place in all of nature. Everything adapts or subsides. If UV does indeed equal THC production obviously it would only stand to reason that the plant's adaptation would pass this on in it's genetic code, especially if controlled and done correctly generation after generation.

man you guys got TOO MUCH time on your hands.

Take care

Farm Hard

Seems like UV-B for breeding can be good. :weed:

Danielsgb · Oct 7, 2010

From this book showing a positive affect from UV radiation. So if I get this right the cannibinoids make an animal that eats Cannabis fall asleep, or be too stoned to remember it has something to eat. :-o

Daniels

Photochemistry and Photobiology 79(5):382-398. 2004
doi: 10.1562/SI-03-24.1
INVITED REVIEW - Ecosystem Consequences of Enhanced Solar Ultraviolet Radiation: Secondary Plant Metabolites as Mediators of Multiple Trophic Interactions in Terrestrial Plant Communities¶

John H. Bassman*
Department of Natural Resource Sciences, Washington State University, Pullman, WA

102*To whom correspondence should be addressed: Department of Natural Resource Sciences, Washington State University, P.O. Box 646410, 115 Johnson Hall, Pullman, WA 99164-6410, USA. Fax: 509-335-7862; [email protected]
Abstract

The potential role of ultraviolet-B (UV-B)induced secondary plant metabolites as mediators of multiple trophic responses in terrestrial ecosystems is considered through review of the major classes of secondary metabolites, the pathways for their biosynthesis, interactions with primary and secondary consumers and known UV effects on their induction. Gross effects of UV-B radiation on plant growth and survival under realistic spectral balances in the field have been generally lacking, but subtle changes in carbon allocation and partitioning induced by UV-B, in particular production of secondary metabolites, can affect ecosystem-level processes. Secondary metabolites are important in plantherbivore interactions and may affect pathogens. They act as feeding or oviposition deterrents to generalists and nonadapted specialists, but adapted specialists are stimulated to feed by these same compounds, which they detoxify and often sequester for use against their predators. This provides a route for tritrophic effects of enhanced UV-B radiation whereby herbivory may be increased while predation on the herbivore is simultaneously reduced. It is in this context that secondary metabolites may manifest their most important role. They can be the demonstrable mechanism establishing cause and effect at higher trophic levels because the consequences of their induction can be established at all trophic levels.

jayme001 · Oct 9, 2010

Hi mate,
When you put your buds in the diy dry box. How long did you put the fans on for till they were ready?

Danielsgb · Oct 9, 2010

jayme001 said:
Hi mate,
When you put your buds in the diy dry box. How long did you put the fans on for till they were ready?

You waded through a ton to get here. :-P

I learned a ton on this crop. It gets pretty technical as I compile research.
I started at full on, then reduced by 15 minutes an hour (or -15 every 4 then 3 then 2) as the days went by. Got faster reducing the fan time after a few days. Kinda went by trying to dry slowly, and avoiding mold/bud rot. I hope that helps you get what I'm going for. I'm starting a RiddleMe drowning experiment on the Well Here Goes Again so watch there to see me harvesting a plant soon.
Daniels :weed:

jayme001 · Oct 9, 2010

i have been talking to someone else on here who said they will help me with my 1st grow, and he has a diy dry box made from a cardboard box with one intake and one outtake pc fans. Last time I read he was 6 hours on and 6 hours off. Ive asked him for an update and will let you know..

Danielsgb · Oct 9, 2010

Just Exhaust is enough, I think, but everyone has their own way.

Danielsgb · Nov 7, 2010

Ooooo My GOD I want some of these. Or even 1.
http://www.growgrowinternational.com/catalog1/pdf/PSH07_brochure.pdf

Danielsgb · Jan 7, 2011

More gold, this one from Brick Top :leaf:

Brick Top said:
Last Updated: December/05/10

Greetings growers this is for medical marijuana users and those who can use the information legally. Seedbank ratings are farther down and the links to growing information are near the end.

The seedbank update is over 12 years old and is the longest running seedbank rating service in the world. Use the list of rated seedbanks and you won't worry about being ripped off. Thanks again to the many people who send in reports on how they did with various vendors.

This is the season to be jolly so light up a big one and put a smile on your face. It's a good time for indoor grows. Get those seed orders in if you haven't already.

The post office in the USA often gets funny about delivering letters. People many times use a fake name to get orders sent to them. The trouble is that the letter carrier may not deliver it if they do not recognize the name. Before you send your order, send a letter to yourself using the name and see if it arrives. Then make your order. Ask the company first if they send to your country. If no reply, do not order.

If you have bought from a seedbank send in your report so that other people will know how good or bad it was. No seeds are sold from this site. This center is only for information. You may also send in a grow report on a variety you grew out.

To reach me write to [email protected] remove the ZZZ. Please do not write me at 37.com, only at the email address listed.

This group I've heard good things about. Those with four stars or more are the most reliable. They will send to most countries. I've tried to list those that ship worldwide. Those with a relatively low rating may just be new to the ratings. It takes a while to earn a good rating. A 1/2 means they are half way to the next star
.
I keep getting bad reports on bc bud depot. Non delivery or poor quality seeds if they do arrive.

Attitude 4 star 1/2 (F****1/2)
Bluenose 3 star (***) (2)
Dr. Greenthumbs 4 star (F****) (1,2,3)
Hemp Depot 4 star and 1/2 (F****1/2) (1,2,4,)
Hemcy 4 and 1/2 star (F****1/2) (1,4)
Highland 2 star and 1/2 (**1/2)
Joey Weed 4 star and a half (F****1/2) (1,2)
Klozit King 3 star and 1/2 (***1/2) (1,2)
Natural Mystic 3 star and 1/2 (***1/2)
Peakseeds BC 4 star (****)
Seedboutique 3 stars and 1/2 (F***1/2) (1)
Seedbank.co.uk 2 star and 1/2 (**1/2)
Tambu 3 star (S***) (1,3)

The limited area seedbanks and a list of bad ones to avoid will be found farther down.

Check out the new and unrated seedbanks at the New page. These are seedbanks I've heard good things about but haven't had enough reports on to make a rating.

I don't have time to answer individual questions so I usually just tell people to do some reading. I have information on my site and links to other sites with even more info.

Would you like to see your grow report in the SU? Please include the name of the strain, where obtained, how it grew, potency and yield. Tell us the names of other strains you grew or smoked for comparison. Cultivation tips and news items are also welcome. You can get credit under any name you prefer or stay anonymous. If you like I will rewrite it for you.

To reach me write to [email protected] (remove ZZZ)

This is a report on which seedbanks are reliable and give good service. I also list some bad ones to stay away from (crooks). Reports from people who have ordered from cannabis seedbanks are welcome. That's what this is based on, reports from people like you. You can send your report to me at [email protected] (remove ZZZ)

If you send a report please state what bank you ordered from, how long it took and roughly how far away you are from them. I'd like to know if the packaging was stealty (well hidden) and what method used and if any seeds were crushed. Any other info you think is important will be appreciated. Reports on how the crop turned out are good too. I don't rate companies on price, that's up to you to compare. The more stars, the more reliable. F = faster than average, no letter = average, S = slow.

I have a system of additional ratings. They are a one (1) for accepting payment by money order or certified check without charging extra for it. A two (2) will be given for free stealth shipping. A three (3) will be given for accepting credit cards. This leaves a paper trail but is quick and easy. (4) indicates that they use PGP code for privacy on request. A five (5) means Western Union is accepted. A six (6) indicates customer complaints about seed quality. An example of the new rating might be Ed's seeds (***) (1,2) which means three stars and he gives free shipping and takes money orders with no extra charge.

These seedbanks send to certain countries only.

Dr Chronic 3 star and 1/2 (F***1/2)
Pukka 2 star (**) (1)
Sensi Seed 4 star and 1/2 (****1/2)
Nirvana Shop3 star and 1/2 (***1/2)
Seeds of Passion2 star (**)

These are seed breeders and wholesalers primarily. While they have a good reputation, I don't have enough information about their mail order seed business to make a rating.

BCGA
Bros Grimm
Dutch Passion
Fantaseeds
Greenhouse
Homegrown Fantaseed
KC Brains
Serious
(and many others)

This is the rip-off section. The following seedbanks I've heard many bad things about. They are NOT recommended. aka means also known as. X means they seldom or never send the product. N means sending non viable seeds (non sprouting seeds) M indicates they send very inferior seeds or nothing at all

A-1 Seedbank (X,N)
BC Seeds (X,M)
Beeoo (X)
Fairlight (X,N)
Greenmanspage (X,M)
marijuanaseed.us (X) Software Services aka Cannabis4u aka Medical hemp aka [email protected] [L.Pafort] (X)
Richies Seedshack (X)
Stinkey's (X)
Weedseed (X)
Pot a Gold (X)

These seedbanks are not recommended due to excessive complaints. This is a judgement call and some customers have said they were satisfied. The nature of the complaints are as follows: 10 = non delivery, 11 = very poor customer service, 12 = inferior quality or misrepresented seeds, 13 = unethical conduct by seedbank owner.

BCbuddepot (11, 10)
Bullmall aka Bull-electrical.com (10, 11)
Cannabisseeds.com (10) Ganjaland (10)
Greater Harmony (10)
Kindseed (10)
Laughing Moon (10, 11)
Seedbank Co uk (11)
Seedbank.com (10)
Topseeds (10)

Danielsgb · Feb 19, 2011

Lumi had this great one.

Illumination said:
From an administrator at Sensi Seeds

"Advanced - Flushing

A critical look at preharvest flushing

Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.

The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf

The claim only chemical ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

http://www.sidwell.edu

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

http://www.sirinet.net

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf

Translocation:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes dont serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.

Summary:

Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldnt be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesnt sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."

Now one would believe that Mr. Sensi knows what he is talking about right?
I mean after all they are probably one of if not the best breeders out there?

Thanx and hope it helps....

Namaste'

God, he explains what we've been trying to say.

jsgamber · Feb 20, 2011

Danielsgb said:
Lumi had this great one.
God, he explains what we've been trying to say.

OK. 1. I bookmarked that post. 2. I'm stoned (I wake and baked on the BlueDream...FUCK :eyesmoke:

) and had to read a couple of times over. 3. Let me see if I can restate what he said in my terms. I may throw in some thoughts I've read elsewhere too.

First I try to imagine what would be going on in my plants in nature (given a perfect natural growing environment) let's say a guerrilla grow. Let's say, even if the plant were to experience a very mild winter like in Northern Cal (where Cruzer101 lives with his greenhouse), and you maintain proper soil conditions and temperatures, aren't the plants still going to eventually die with daylight heading towards 8/16 on Dec 21? Does any of the bud grown guerrilla ever get knocked down in a review due to "not flushed very well" or "tastes like nutes", etc?

So what if it's a combination of reduction of nutes AND a reduction in daylight? According to above the immobile elements won't flush, just the mobile, so it would seem even artificial flushing won't remove those immobile elements. Now as light is reduced, photosynthesis (which utilize mobile elements) diminishes. When that happens the plant won't need those elements anymore so the plant will stop taking them up through the roots. What's remaining would seem to be drawn back into the stems and leaf stores (just like we store fat). In this state the flower's just run out of food, flushing themselves, leaving any unused nutrients in the stems, branches and leaves (which all get discarded or made into hash).

It would be interesting to do a slow reduction of nutes AND a slow reduction of light towards 8/16 for the last two weeks which would be the more natural course. Just don't rip the rug out in one pull!

Is there any usable logic in what I wrote?

peace

Danielsgb · Feb 20, 2011

There is some logic there to be sure. I do know Cannabis can go dormant and regrow in spring to be more of a perennial in parts of Mexico. But in Nature they finish dropping seeds to continue the species, then they die. I'd like to see a true experiment on it. To see what gives the highest % of cannibinoids is our mission. Lab test for samples are $60 each here.

Well Here Goes

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