Well Here Goes

Uncle Ben said:

Gawd, one reason I hate this topic is I seem to get sucked into it every time LOL!

I respect THE cannabis botanist of all time, Robert C. Clarke and also Mel Frank. I also know botany and have decades of plant growing experience.

In his book "Marijuana Botany", Robert Connell Clarke states that:

Leafing is one of the most misunderstood techniques of drug cannabis cultivation.

He states that there are 3 common beliefs:

1.) Large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant and by removing the large fan leaves surplus energy will be available and larger floral clusters will be formed,

2.) Some feel that the inhibitors of flowering, synthesized in the fan leaves during the long non-inductive days of summer may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the non-inductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower more quickly when the shorter days of fall trigger flowering,

3.) Large fan leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small, atrophied, interior floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.

Few, if any, of the theories behind leafing have any validity.

The large fan leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth substances. They do create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. Premature removal of the fan leaves may cause stunting because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced.

Most cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage and this trend continues on until senescence (death of the plant) He also states that removing large amounts of fan leaves will also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause SEX REVERSAL resulting from a metabolic imbalance

He goes on to say that cannabis grows largest when provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and water, and left alone to grow and mature naturally. It must be remembered that any alteration of the natural life cycle of cannabis will affect productivity.

source - Cannabis.com thread, about 15 years ago.

You can stick with who and what you want. I'm not running a popularity contest around here lol.

UB

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riddleme said:

I posted this pic in a thread to answer a question about how to prevent nute lockout. My answer was to understand how nutes interact, the pic shows negative and positive interactions simply follow the direction of the arrows to understand the implecations

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Brick Top said:

This will be my last message and the last time I bother to correct you. The method for testing THC, after it was changed from how it was tested in the 60's and 70's, is THC level is a percentage of ALL CANNABINOIDS, not just THC to CBD.

Before the change in testing procedure THC was a percentage of not only all cannabinoids but also plant matter(the glands inside glandular trichome heads) and organic substances belonging to buds like: amino-acids, sugars, terpenoids, vegetal hormones.

An example of a strain tested using the old testing method and the newer testing method shows how dramatic the increase in THC levels shot up by excluding the plant matter(the glands inside glandular trichome heads) and organic substances belonging to buds like: amino-acids, sugars, terpenoids, vegetal hormones from testing. World of Seeds Bank - Afgan Kush


Strain: Afgan Kush
Breeder: World of Seeds
Location: indoor, outdoor
Type: indica
Flowering: ~50 days
Normal or female seeds.
Way of cropping: Mainly indoor/very good yield outdoor
Race: Pure race obtained from the Afgani Kush zone
Genotype: Almost 100% Indica
High: Less than 1.5 m indoor/ until 2 meters outdoor
Wide: Depending on prune. Some branched without prune
Growing time: Three weeks
Harvest time: 45-55 days indoor/average October outdoor/pollitano
Resistance to mushrooms: Average
Resistance to plague: Depends on the plague
Irrigation tolerance: High tolerance to frequent irrigation and fertilization
Yield: Over 400 gr per m2 indoor/ 500 - 600 gr per plant outdoor
Medicinal value: High (for its high content in CBD).Excellent like anti-emetic and antispasmodic
Smell: Hashish.
Flavor: Fruity-sweet.
Effects: Very narcotic, almost devastating

(Newer testing procedure results) THC Level: 21.6% measured upon the rest of cannabinoids. (Old testing procedure results) 7.4% measured upon the rest of organic substances belonging to buds like: amino-acids, sugars, terpenoids, vegetal hormones, and cannabinoids (determined by gas chromatography coupled with mass spectrometry)

So Rain Man, did you happen to notice how a 21.6% THC level dropped all the way down into single digits, all the way down to 7.4% strictly because it was tested the way strains were tested in the 60's and the 70's and that it only tested at a much higher percentage strictly because that test was the newer test where THC is only a percentage all cannabinoids? (AND NOT JUST THC TO CBD)

Thus endeth the lesson.

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I spoke with a grower with over 30 years experience. He said they did it in the 80's. He soaked the seeds in a solution, but only 10% would germinate. He said you can smoke those since the tiny amount they absorb will produce polyploidism but not effect the buds. If you were to treat the plant later it would be poisonous. He said many of the males were sterile. Sounds very interesting. UB or RiddleMe, do you guys have any info on this? I remember Bricktop mentioning it.
Daniels

IAm5toned said:

well guys i usually refrain from posting in this section cause i dont want my noobish nature to be to obvious..
BUT ive been doing some reading recently about germination techniques using a very weak concentration (.04%) of colchicine in solution with distilled water.

has anybody tried this, and if so what type of results did you get...

im also curious where one can find this stuff for botanical use, and if you need a license to purchase it, as I understand that in high concentrations this stuff is extremely toxic...

see i'm the type of guy that doesnt have much space for things, and because of that i need something that has some very polyploidy traits if you know what i mean... and because im a) cheap, dont like spending 100's for seeds, and b) the type of person that likes to experiment and c) has lots of bagseed lying around. so i was wondering what i could do with bagseed and colchicine treatment.

any input is appreciated and thanks in advance!

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IAm5toned said:

Botanical use

Since chromosome segregation is driven by microtubules, colchicine is also used for inducing polyploidy in plant cells during cellular division by inhibiting chromosome segregation during meiosis; half the resulting gametes therefore contain no chromosomes, while the other half contain double the usual number of chromosomes (i.e., diploid instead of haploid as gametes usually are), and lead to embryos with double the usual number of chromosomes (i.e. tetraploid instead of diploid). While this would be fatal in animal cells, in plant cells it is not only usually well tolerated, but in fact frequently results in plants which are larger, hardier, faster growing, and in general more desirable than the normally diploid parents; for this reason, this type of genetic manipulation is frequently used in breeding plants commercially. In addition, when such a tetraploid plant is crossed with a diploid plant, the triploid offspring will be sterile, which may be commercially useful in itself by requiring growers to buy seed from the supplier, but also can often be induced to create a "seedless" fruit if pollinated (usually the triploid will also not produce pollen, therefore a diploid parent is needed to provide the pollen). This is the method used to create seedless watermelons, for instance. On the other hand, colchicine's ability to induce polyploidy can be exploited to render infertile hybrids fertile, as is done when breeding triticale from wheat and rye. Wheat is typically tetraploid and rye diploid, with the triploid hybrid infertile. Treatment with colchicine of triploid triticale gives fertile hexaploid triticale.
When used to induce polyploidy in plants, colchicine is usually applied to the plant as a cream. It has to be applied to a growth point of the plant, such as an apical tip, shoot or sucker. Seeds can be presoaked in a colchicine solution before planting. As colchicine is so dangerous, it is worth noting that doubling of chromosome numbers can occur spontaneously in nature, and not infrequently. The best place to look is in regenerating tissue. One way to induce it is to chop off the tops of plants and carefully examine the lateral shoots and suckers to see if any look different.[7] If there is no visual difference flow cytometry can be used for analysis.
in plain english it mutates the plant into producing more main branches (colas!) with bigger, more potent buds... there was a guy back in the 40's that did a bunch of experiments trying to extract thc from plants but what he found out was that colchicine germinated plants were nearly double in potency.

i read another thread on here about someone using colchicine in concentrations of .1% however every serious scientific article I've found on it shows the best results at levels no higher than .04% concentration.

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karmabud said:

heres a link to what i think you want if you cant find it .http://wardsci.com/product.asp?pn=IG0015182&cm_mmc=Mercent-_-Google-_-NULL-_-9610600&mr:trackingCode=B979975B-6581-DE11-8C0A-000423C27502&mr:referralID=NA&bhcd2=1259467083

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jimmy130380 said:

Here are a couple random excerpts from forums i found as well dealing with polyploid marijuana ( jimmy did not the dude who went to all this trouble did)

Normal cannabis is diploid, meaning that it has two sets of chromosomes - one from each parent - in each cell.

Polyploid cannabis is sometimes referred to in breeding literature, and used to be thought of as a bit of a Holy Grail amongst plants - I guess due to the hope that interesting new mutations might occur when polyploid cannabis was flowered or used in breeding (or maybe just the idea that 'more genes iz better').
AFAIK, there were never any interesting results from breeding with polyploid plants (though the legends do persist).

NB - It's important to note that whorled phylotaxy (plants growing three or four leaves/branches per internode) is not the same as polyploidy. The two terms are often confused - such as in the original version of this post.
One reason for the confusion of the two ideas is that both refer to a 'doubling' of cannabis plants - genes in one case, foliage in the other. It's also interesting that both polyploidy and whorled phyllotaxy were pursued as big breeding breakthroughs, and both came to nothing AFAIK.


I've not heard the term tetraploid before, but since the 'tetra' refers to 'four', I'm guessing it's an update on the less-specific 'polyploid'.
I don't know of any seed strains that have been bred to produce polyploid plants.
From the fact that it was thought of as a desired trait in breeding circles, but was never successfully introduced into a seed line suggests that it's either a random mutation that's not reliably passed on to offspring, or that it proved to be not such a desirable trait after all.

What makes you think you have a tetraploid? Just because a plant exhibits tri-foliate or tetra-foliate leaf patterns, also known as whorled phylotoxy, I beleive, does not mean it is a polyploid. Polyploidism can only be confirmed through genetic mapping.


Here is a nice little read on polyploidism in cannabis, notice some key points I have highlighted for you.

Marijuana Botany, Robert Connel Clark, pub. 1981
Polyploidy

Polyploidy is the condition of multiple sets of chromosomes within one cell. Cannabis has 20 chromosomes in the vegetative diploid (2n) condition. Triploid (3n) and tetraploid (4n) individuals have three or four sets of chromosomes and are termed polyploids. It is believed that the haploid condition of 10 chromosomes was likely derived by reduction from a higher (polyploid) ancestral number (Lewis, W. H. 1980). Polyploidy has not been shown to occur naturally in Cannabis; however, it may be induced artificially with colchicine treatments. Colchicine is a poisonous compound extracted from the roots of certain Colchicum species; it inhibits chromosome segregation to daughter cells and cell wall formation, resulting in larger than average daughter cells with multiple chromosome sets. The studies of H. E. Warmke et al. (1942-1944) seem to indicate that colchicine raised drug levels in Cannabis. It is unfortunate that Warmke was unaware of the actual psychoactive ingredients of Cannabis and was therefore unable to extract THC. His crude acetone extract and archaic techniques of bioassay using killifish and small freshwater crustaceans are far from conclusive. He was, however, able to produce both triploid and tetraploid strains of Cannabis with up to twice the potency of dip bid strains (in their ability to kill small aquatic organisms). The aim of his research was to "produce a strain of hemp with materially reduced marijuana content" and his results indicated that polyploidy raised the potency of Cannabis without any apparent increase in fiber quality or yield.

Warmke's work with polyploids shed light on the nature of sexual determination in Cannabis. He also illustrated that potency is genetically determined by creating a lower potency strain of hemp through selective breeding with low potency parents.

More recent research by A. I. Zhatov (1979) with fiber Cannabis showed that some economically valuable traits such as fiber quantity may be improved through polyploidy. Polyploids require more water and are usually more sensitive to changes in environment. Vegetative growth cycles are extended by up to 30-40% in polyploids. An extended vegetative period could delay the flowering of polyploid drug strains and interfere with the formation of floral clusters. It would be difficult to determine if cannabinoid levels had been raised by polyploidy if polyploid plants were not able to mature fully in the favorable part of the season when cannabinoid production is promoted by plentiful light and warm temperatures. Greenhouses and artificial lighting can be used to extend the season and test polyploid strains.

The height of tetraploid (4n) Cannabis in these experiments often exceeded the height of the original diploid plants by 25-30%. Tetraploids were intensely colored, with dark green leaves and stems and a well developed gross phenotype. Increased height and vigorous growth, as a rule, vanish in subsequent generations. Tetraploid plants often revert back to the diploid condition, making it difficult to support tetraploid populations. Frequent tests are performed to determine if ploidy is changing.

Triploid (3n) strains were formed with great difficulty by crossing artificially created tetraploids (4n) with dip bids (2n). Triploids proved to be inferior to both diploids and tetraploids in many cases.

De Pasquale et al. (1979) conducted experiments with Cannabis which was treated with 0.25% and 0.50% solutions of colchicine at the primary meristem seven days after generation. Treated plants were slightly taller and possessed slightly larger leaves than the controls, Anomalies in leaf growth occurred in 20% and 39%, respectively, of the surviving treated plants. In the first group (0.25%) cannabinoid levels were highest in the plants without anomalies, and in the second group (0.50%) cannabinoid levels were highest in plants with anomalies, Overall, treated plants showed a 166-250% increase in THC with respect to controls and a decrease of CBD (30-33%) and CBN (39-65%). CBD (cannabidiol) and CBN (cannabinol) are cannabinoids involved in the biosynthesis and degradation of THC. THC levels in the control plants were very low (less than 1%). Possibly colchicine or the resulting polyploidy interferes with cannabinoid biogenesis to favor THC. In treated plants with deformed leaf lamina, 90% of the cells are tetraploid (4n 40) and 10% diploid (2n 20). In treated plants without deformed lamina a few cells are tetraploid and the remainder are triploid or diploid.

The transformation of diploid plants to the tetraploid level inevitably results in the formation of a few plants with an unbalanced set of chromosomes (2n + 1, 2n - 1, etc.). These plants are called aneuploids. Aneuploids are inferior to polyploids in every economic respect. Aneuploid Cannabis is characterized by extremely small seeds. The weight of 1,000 seeds ranges from 7 to 9 grams (1/4 to 1/3 ounce). Under natural conditions diploid plants do not have such small seeds and average 14-19 grams (1/2-2/3 ounce) per 1,000 (Zhatov 1979).

Once again, little emphasis has been placed on the relationship between flower or resin production and polyploidy. Further research to determine the effect of polyploidy on these and other economically valuable traits of Cannabis is needed.

Colchicine is sold by laboratory supply houses, and breeders have used it to induce polyploidy in Cannabis. However, colchicine is poisonous, so special care is exercised by the breeder in any use of it. Many clandestine cultivators have started polyploid strains with colchicine. Except for changes in leaf shape and phyllotaxy, no out standing characteristics have developed in these strains and potency seems unaffected. However, none of the strains have been examined to determine if they are actually polyploid or if they were merely treated with colchicine to no effect. Seed treatment is the most effective and safest way to apply colchicine. * In this way, the entire plant growing from a colchicine-treated seed could be polyploid and if any colchicine exists at the end of the growing season the amount would be infinitesimal. Colchicine is nearly always lethal to Cannabis seeds, and in the treatment there is a very fine line between polyploidy and death. In other words, if 100 viable seeds are treated with colchicine and 40 of them germinate it is unlikely that the treatment induced polyploidy in any of the survivors. On the other hand, if 1,000 viable treated seeds give rise to 3 seedlings, the chances are better that they are polyploid since the treatment killed all of the seeds but those three. It is still necessary to determine if the offspring are actually polyploid by microscopic examination.

The work of Menzel (1964) presents us with a crude map of the chromosomes of Cannabis, Chromosomes 2-6 and 9 are distinguished by the length of each arm. Chromosome 1 is distinguished by a large knob on one end and a dark chromomere 1 micron from the knob. Chromosome 7 is extremely short and dense, and chromosome 8 is assumed to be the sex chromosome. In the future, chromosome *The word "safest" is used here as a relative term. Coichicine has received recent media attention as a dangerous poison and while these accounts are probably a bit too lurid, the real dangers of exposure to coichicine have not been fully researched. The possibility of bodily harm exists and this is multiplied when breeders inexperienced in handling toxins use colchicine. Seed treatment might be safer than spraying a grown plant but the safest method of all is to not use colchicine. mapping will enable us to picture the location of the genes influencing the phenotype of Cannabis. This will enable geneticists to determine and manipulate the important characteristics contained in the gene pool. For each trait the number of genes in control will be known, which chromosomes carry them, and where they are located along those chromosomes.

And here is a link to the original thread on ICMag where this clipping was taken from.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.p...ight=polyploid

and one last clip out of the growers bible on the subject

http://books.google.com/books?id=fERzFsZhdxYC&pg=PA458&lpg=PA458&dq=polyploid+marijuana+jorge+cervantes&source=bl&ots=t0RAcvPGVr&sig=WP72dcbIkfrhKMqoB5cu-lCOUjY&hl=en&ei=czV7SuDRIpK4NcSBzdkC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

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riddleme said:

It is all about how mother nature does things and with her being the absolute best gardener there is I set out to copy her style.
The PH of rain (in most places) is 5.6 so I PH my water to 5.8, to understand why you need to understand how everything works in nature and why they say soil is a buffer. This is why soil PH is somewhat important because when it is dry the PH should be around 7 or neutral. When it rains the soil takes on the wet PH of the water in the case of rain it is lowered. The acidic nature of rain activates things in the soil basically processing available nutes and making them available to the plants. But at the low PH the plants can't get at them, I have attached a photo showing at what PH level the different nutes become available to the plant.
What happens is the plant is basically drowning and starving when it rains so it goes into hyper-drive to wick the water out of the ground in order to survive, now that they transpire anyway but much harder when it rains. As they do this the soil buffers back to it's original PH slowly and as this happens nutes become available to the plant in the various ranges. (one reason you see more growth on the second day).
Most soil growers will PH their water and nutes down in the low 6's and as high as 6.8 but this does not give the hyper-drive wicking effect, they will just transpire normally and slowly if you do this. Hence the growth you see in my pics from making it rain because I basically only let them rest for one day (to dry out and get O2) between making it rain and it is very important to know how to read them to know that this is where things are at otherwise you will easily fall into the overwater trap and cause them stress and harm possibly even kill them. It is also important that they have a healthy root system in order to be able to wick the water out of the ground faster.
TIP: if they are growing fast and wanting water in short periods of time you know you have healthy roots part of learning how to read them and one of the things to be aware of.
This is also the reason that I use chemical nutes as they are readily available to the plant right away as the wicking process goes through the various PH ranges getting back to neutral, it is a slower process with organic nutes as the rain activates and the little mico critters eat and poop processing the nutes so the plant can use them. now you must also understand that adding chem nutes lowers the PH of your soil with accumulated salt build ups, when you make it rain every-time you are basically doing what we call the flush (though in the other than MJ world it is most commonly referred as leeching the soil) and washing unused nutes (salts) out of the soil thus allowing you to repeat the process all over again without having to worry about salt building up.
Yet another reason that it is slower when going organic cause you are washing mico's out as well and then waiting for them to multiply back up and this is why I use Jack's because it is one of the best chem nutes available on the market today. JR Peters has a very good reputation and has been one of the best nutes for agriculture and gardening for many years.
The process for container gardening is simple you make it rain with the low PH water and the plant goes into hyper-drive, you watch the top 3 inches of soil for drying out and when it does you feed them nutes but only till you see a slight runoff insuring that the pot is now full of nutes. Plant remains in hyper-drive and now feeds off the readily available nutes, you then wait till the soil dries and repeat. While the process is very simple it is the learning to read them that can be complicated and cause confusion.
Learning/knowing when to do things is the most important part of the process. It is also important not to overfeed them which causes nute burn and other problems, thus the reason we start out with 1/4 of what the nute package says and slowly work our way up to discover what the plant can handle. I hope that explains it better for everyone

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Uncle Ben said:

Germinating Cannabis Seeds (for Bio Growers)

Your seedlings will be alot better off if you germinate directly in soil - less handling and mechanical disturbance means less chance of physical damage to the plant's taproot (and roothairs) and less food reserves used to position itself due to the natural hormonal influence called Gravitropism. That translates into less food reserves used resulting in increased seedling vigor, especially in the very early critical stages of seedling development.

This is my foolproof method for Cannabis Seed Germination in soil:

First, if harvesting seeds from my own crosses, I air-dry newly harvested seeds for a couple of weeks, and then store them in the refrigerator with a little rice. Cold-treatment seems to increase viability and germination rates, especially with indica-dom strains. I almost always get a 100% germination rate with quality seedstock.

Soak the seeds in plain water for 12 hours prior to planting to hydrate them, which will speed up germination. In general, good seeds will sink, bad seeds will remain floating (they contain air, not an embryo). I first sterilize seeds in a bleach solution (1 Tbsp. bleach/1 gallon of water) for 1/2 hour to kill any fungus residing on the seedcoat.

Sterilize enough *damp* fine soil with heat to germinate all of your seeds. You can do this by treating the damp soil to temps of (no more than) 200F for 20 mins in a conventional oven, or in a microwave oven on high for 2 minutes, while stirring a couple of times. Your goal is to get and hold the entire soil mix's temperature at 170F to 180F for about 20 minutes which can be monitored with a probe type thermometer. Let the mix cool thoroughly. This will insure that damp-off fungus spores have been killed in the soil mix. Make sure the soil mix is light and humusy (not real coarse). You can add a little sand or vermiculite to aid in drainage and weight.

Buy some white 20oz styrofoam "drinking glasses", commonly called "Styro-Cups", and punch holes in the bottom (and side bottom) for drainage. I use a red-hot ice pick for this. These containers are 6 1/2" tall and will allow ample room for the taproot to grow before cotyledon emergence which will increase your seedling's vigor. The taproot (radicle) is already at least 4" long at the point of emergence - don't restrict it (in order to maximize seedling growth rate). Styro-Cups can be found on the shelf displaying picnic items at your local grocery store.

Fill the pots almost to the top with your soil mix, water well to settle the mix, take a pencil and make a small hole about 1/4" to 1/2" deep, NO deeper, and drop *one* seed in. Cover the seed with *fine* soil, only enough to top up the hole, firm lightly with your finger, and lightly water until water runs freely thru the drain holes. Place in a warm spot around 80F/26C. Do NOT cover the cup with saran wrap or anything else. The seed has been hydrated from the soaking and will germinate soon. This container should not require further watering until the seedling is up and running.

During the first couple of days, mist the top soil surface lightly (if need be), never allowing the top to crust over, but not to the point that the medium stays waterlogged which will invite pythium rot (damp-off). "Less is more" at this point. Do NOT water this pot any more until the seedling is up, and only if it needs it at the point of emergence. Again, no need to cover with plastic wrap as the radicle (taproot) will grow at least 4" before the cotyledons emerge from the soil. IOW, even though you can't see it, the plant's taproot (radicle) is seeking and finding moisture at the container's lower soil levels. I cannot emphasize this enough. The seedling will emerge anywhere from 2 to 10 days from the time you sowed it.

That's all to it! With good care, your faves will be ready to transplant within 1 to 2 weeks, and will easily slip out of the "cup" with a solid rootball that will never know it's been disturbed if potted up gently and quickly. Move up to a final pot of 3 to 5 gallons to sex and finish.

An effective transplant solution can be made using (no more than) 1 teaspoon of a 15-30-15 fert and 10 drops of Superthrive per gallon of water. Take note regarding the immediate growth spurt after this transition!

Good luck,
Uncle Ben

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