What is the Definition of a Soul?

sarah22 · Feb 15, 2010

morgentaler said:
If you need something to fill the gaps in your knowledge that education is not yet able to fill, it doesn't make you spiritual - it makes you insecure.

thats it? lol thats your response? so education is going to teach us absolutely everything we need to know about our universe and ourselves? how? science hasn't even explained all these ideas. so how could what you just said even begin to make sense? unless of course you're some super evolved life form that already has all the information in the universe available to them...which you clearly dont, otherwise you'd be able to explain to me why it is that a soul cant possibly exist. ;-)

i think that waiting for someone else to hand deliver the proof you ask for on a silver platter is a little insecure. do you not trust in your intellect enough? you have to wait for someone else to figure this stuff out? :lol:

sarah22 · Feb 15, 2010

PadawanBater said:
What you call spirituality, I call enlightenment.

I've never had a more enlightening moment in my entire life than when I realized I was an atheist.

its all the same thing to me...enlightenment, spirituality, to me they're one in the same. and personally (and i hope you dont take offence, i dont mean it to be that way)...i put atheists and very religious people in the same category. they're both extreme just different ends of the spectrum. neither of them have the whole picture. i used to follow atheism too. i was completely and totally into science and fact and claims that are measurable and can be proved. but after a while i realized that being that way, was limiting my view of the world. i dont like limits, so i opened up to new ideas, and now i feel limitless.

doc111 · Feb 15, 2010

sarah22 said:
its all the same thing to me...enlightenment, spirituality, to me they're one in the same. and personally (and i hope you dont take offence, i dont mean it to be that way)...i put atheists and very religious people in the same category. they're both extreme just different ends of the spectrum. neither of them have the whole picture.

I feel the same way. It's amazing to me that some of these atheists bitch about religious people being closed minded and yet they are just as closed minded, in some cases more so. Good post! :bigjoint:

sarah22 · Feb 15, 2010

doc111 said:
I feel the same way. It's amazing to me that some of these atheists bitch about religious people being closed minded and yet they are just as closed minded, in some cases more so. Good post!

thanks doc :hug:

PadawanBater · Feb 15, 2010

sarah22 said:
its all the same thing to me...enlightenment, spirituality, to me they're one in the same. and personally (and i hope you dont take offence, i dont mean it to be that way)...i put atheists and very religious people in the same category. they're both extreme just different ends of the spectrum. neither of them have the whole picture. i used to follow atheism too. i was completely and totally into science and fact and claims that are measurable and can be proved. but after a while i realized that being that way, was limiting my view of the world. i dont like limits, so i opened up to new ideas, and now i feel limitless.

doc111 said:
I feel the same way. It's amazing to me that some of these atheists bitch about religious people being closed minded and yet they are just as closed minded, in some cases more so. Good post!

You have to remember, all an atheist is, is "I don't know if there is a god".

If there is a god, and we just can't fathom, perceive or understand it, it's irrelevant, what does it matter if it does or does not exist? There's no implication, except in the world these fundamentalists have dreamed up where they've twisted reality into this belief. If God does exist, he will understand my train of thought as I existed on Earth and he will understand exactly how I came to the conclusions I've come to. If it then chose to punish me for the act of honest inquiry, like I've said dozens of times before, I'll be glad to do the Devils dirty work in Hell because I would never worship, trust or love an entity that endowed me with the gifts we share as humans - curiosity, wonder, thirst for knowledge, etc. - then punished me for utilizing them.

doc111 · Feb 15, 2010

PadawanBater said:
You have to remember, all an atheist is, is "I don't know if there is a god".

If there is a god, and we just can't fathom, perceive or understand it, it's irrelevant, what does it matter if it does or does not exist? There's no implication, except in the world these fundamentalists have dreamed up where they've twisted reality into this belief. If God does exist, he will understand my train of thought as I existed on Earth and he will understand exactly how I came to the conclusions I've come to. If it then chose to punish me for the act of honest inquiry, like I've said dozens of times before, I'll be glad to do the Devils dirty work in Hell because I would never worship, trust or love an entity that endowed me with the gifts we share as humans - curiosity, wonder, thirst for knowledge, etc. - then punished me for utilizing them.

Your beliefs are your beliefs and I respect them although I may not agree with them. There is this undertone of anger and resentment by a lot of atheists (not necessarily you). It's easy for somebody like me to see it because I'm fairly objective. I'm not religious but I'm no atheist either. I understand your frustration with organized religion. I share it. But I don't want to see all christians stripped of their faith and marched out into the streets and executed. Some atheists, and you know it's true, want to see that. It's ironic because many atheists want to do the same thing to christians that has been done to them yet somehow atheists are better????? That's pretty hypocritical IMO. :joint:

PadawanBater · Feb 15, 2010

doc111 said:
Your beliefs are your beliefs and I respect them although I may not agree with them. There is this undertone of anger and resentment by a lot of atheists (not necessarily you). It's easy for somebody like me to see it because I'm fairly objective. I'm not religious but I'm no atheist either. I understand your frustration with organized religion. I share it. But I don't want to see all christians stripped of their faith and marched out into the streets and executed. Some atheists, and you know it's true, want to see that. It's ironic because many atheists want to do the same thing to christians that has been done to them yet somehow atheists are better????? That's pretty hypocritical IMO.

And me, and morgen and all the atheists I know or have ever known would stand up against those that would push for such a thing. That's insanity. Executed? All I want, all 99% of us want is for these people to realize the comfort they get from their religion comes at an amazing cost to the rest of us. It's selfish. It's not fair, and it's any honest persons obligation to fight against ignorance everywhere.

There are fanatics in every group of people.

doc111 · Feb 15, 2010

PadawanBater said:
And me, and morgen and all the atheists I know or have ever known would stand up against those that would push for such a thing. That's insanity. Executed? All I want, all 99% of us want is for these people to realize the comfort they get from their religion comes at an amazing cost to the rest of us. It's selfish. It's not fair, and it's any honest persons obligation to fight against ignorance everywhere.

There are fanatics in every group of people.

There are indeed fanatics in every group. And you're right, it is insanity, but some atheists want it. I guess I don't really understand your comment about comfort coming at an amazing cost. Whenever I used to get into trouble when I was little I would say "It's not fair". My mother would respond "Life isn't fair". Smart people pick their battles. Fighting ignorance, religion, and greed is noble I suppose but it's a losing proposition. :eyesmoke:

BigTitLvr · Feb 15, 2010

Philly_Buddah said:
You could think of it this way, the soul is the raw "you" while your physical body is merely a vessel to exist in the physical dimension. The soul is multidimensional, and much less limited than the physical body. In the soul you experience everything in its raw form, where as now its merely interpretations and electic impulses in your brain that show you everything around you. Not to mention that todays society keeps us even more limited so were stuck on an incredibly narrow path of existence in the physical realm. Say you lived in the game "pong" (2D) in a different time measurement that seemed to last for eternity, then you died in the game and all of a sudden you went back to being a person. You were controlling the game from your regular human self unknowingly, and were incredibly limited before going out and experiencing 4 dimensions and were amazed at 1st, but when you got back you realized it was just like the blink of an eye. Before you were born and after your physical body dies youll be a soul again.

All these super-skeptics ask for physical proof of the soul, but how are we supposed to show proof physical proof of something thats not physical? But at the same time, supposedly when you die in the physical realm and youre soul "leaves" your body it becomes something like 21 grams lighter. If you look for proof enough or something to make you truly believe then youll eventually find it. Ive done years of research on these topics, and personally experienced many of these supernatural things along with near death experiences, astral projection, etc. As far as Im concerned its definitely real, there is a soul. You dont have to take my word for it, do research for yourself and try to reconnect with this side youve been programmed to be disconnected from since the day of your birth.

As someone who feels I wasted the first 20 years I my life in a strict religion, that my family is still blindly committed to, I have to say that as gullible as humans appear to be, many of us really do have to ask for more proof than a soul offers. We can't accept anyone who won't use the scientific method to describe their worldview. Otherwise, any belief you can imagine is acceptable.

Like, if we really do lose 21 grams of weight at death you can offer the 'soul hypotheses' for further testing, but just measuring 21 grams lighter is not proof of a soul.

I think the soul concept is ancient and easy to believe, but usually only plausible if you believe in gods. Not just A god, but many gods, angles and demons- like religious dogma; there has to be a soul, or else what are they all fighting for?

But I don't define that as god. So I don't personally see humans as having a deeper spirit, any more then other animals alive. If someone could show me proof of any kind at all...I will consider it honestly and with open-mind.

Otherwise, it is really only our intelligence and consciousness (self-aware) that separate us from the other animals. That is what common ancestry would predict.

^Psychonaut^ said:
I think I simply have faith that there is more going on and more to life than what we are current aware of, the raw animal view of the meaning of life simply doesnt seem right to me, means there is no real point to anything. I admit this can simply be my own defensive mechanism to keep the 'organism' alive.

I am curious if atheists take the raw animal view of life, evolution and nothing more than continuing the species with the world in its current state, there must be more meaning in their lives, which would essentially amount to being some kind of faith probably, to keep your own life moving?

Of course there is no evidence to prove the existence of the soul, its hard to imagine it being proven actually, but personally I would probably just attach my faith in there being more going on to something like string theory, extra dimensions of existence which in current scientific theory is not a ridiculous idea at all as I understand it. I am not well read on it though and am just generalising, like most people of faith do; but then some physicists are Christians.

As an evolutionist and an agnostic (the only defensible position, imo) we live in a raw, animal world. It is only our intelligence and consciousness that rises us beyond the animals.

We should have all realized it by now. That we are beyond this flesh and bone. We are spiritual in mind- connected to each other in spirit of mind, not spirit of soul. But only because, if someone suggest we believe something, they must offer some sort of proof. Otherwise, we have to respect absolutely any idea, which is unacceptable when it comes to anything serious; like education or public policy.

So I think, when we die, like any other animal, we will return to the exact same condition we were in before we were born; nothing. All the people who haven't been born yet, they do not exist. And when they die, they will not exist...again.

:peace:

morgentaler · Feb 15, 2010

Just because you're afraid of death and need to make things up to face the end does not make them real.

Science actually evaluates evidence. The afterlife stuff you're peddling isn't based on anything more real than a Stephen King novel.

I don't need to be an uber evolved being to know that you don't know shit about what happens after you die. Any claim you make to such effect just shows you to be either deluded or a liar.

sarah22 said:
thats it? lol thats your response? so education is going to teach us absolutely everything we need to know about our universe and ourselves? how? science hasn't even explained all these ideas. so how could what you just said even begin to make sense? unless of course you're some super evolved life form that already has all the information in the universe available to them...which you clearly dont, otherwise you'd be able to explain to me why it is that a soul cant possibly exist. i think that waiting for someone else to hand deliver the proof you ask for on a silver platter is a little insecure. do you not trust in your intellect enough? you have to wait for someone else to figure this stuff out?

morgentaler · Feb 15, 2010

It's really very simple.
When you make claims about knowing about souls, the afterlife, "who" created the universe, and what happened before the universe came into being, yet offer no evidence to back it up, we're going to tell you to fuckoff and come back when you can show something to support it.

The best "proof" anyone of you has been able to offer is the bible...

A book written by anonymous authors, about subjects that none of the authors actually saw, based on oral traditions in an age where people weren't required to actually provide verification of their claims.

It's like worshipping the drawings of a 4 year old.

edit: just for clarification, the 'you' is a generalized 'you', not a "you doc111"

doc111 said:
I feel the same way. It's amazing to me that some of these atheists bitch about religious people being closed minded and yet they are just as closed minded, in some cases more so. Good post!

morgentaler · Feb 15, 2010

I only know one atheist out of a few hundred that would like to see all religious people dead.

But he would also like to see all people who walk slower than him in the mall dead too.

I'm strongly opposed to baseless and dogmatic faiths.

Believing anything just for the sake of believing in "something" is dangerous, if not for the originator then for those who it effects.

And that goes for ALL faith, not just religious.
I don't like political faith any more than christian or muslim faith.

doc111 said:
Your beliefs are your beliefs and I respect them although I may not agree with them. There is this undertone of anger and resentment by a lot of atheists (not necessarily you). It's easy for somebody like me to see it because I'm fairly objective. I'm not religious but I'm no atheist either. I understand your frustration with organized religion. I share it. But I don't want to see all christians stripped of their faith and marched out into the streets and executed. Some atheists, and you know it's true, want to see that. It's ironic because many atheists want to do the same thing to christians that has been done to them yet somehow atheists are better????? That's pretty hypocritical IMO.

morgentaler · Feb 15, 2010

doc111 said:
Fighting ignorance, religion, and greed is noble I suppose but it's a losing proposition.

Greed maybe, but headway is already being made against ignorance and religion.

As academics fight to instill critical reasoning faculties in future generations we will see better educated and capable youth. And religion is already losing it's numbers. It may not seem like much to most people, but there's a reason that religious leaders in North America and Europe are in a panic. That few percentage points of atheism that increased in the last decade is just the canary in the coal mine. The generation that follows is the internet generation, and those born after 1990 are much more savvy, drawn to science, and put off by religion.

Some churches in the US are already closing their doors.

I'm not sad to see them go.

BigTitLvr · Feb 15, 2010

sarah22 said:
its all the same thing to me...enlightenment, spirituality, to me they're one in the same. and personally (and i hope you dont take offence, i dont mean it to be that way)...i put atheists and very religious people in the same category. they're both extreme just different ends of the spectrum. neither of them have the whole picture. i used to follow atheism too. i was completely and totally into science and fact and claims that are measurable and can be proved. but after a while i realized that being that way, was limiting my view of the world. i dont like limits, so i opened up to new ideas, and now i feel limitless.

You are right about atheism and religious people being similar. But only in that they both require a leap of faith, just in opposite directions.

To be either means you believe you've acquired enough evidence to make your mind up about the issue of god. Since their is no proof either way about god, only anecdotal argument, you have to begin to 'believe' at some point.

In the end, one can only be agnostic about the god question: waiting for more information... (god...not religion. religion is bullshit)

Meanwhile, you can choose to believe anything you want (including unicorns), as long as you admit you have faith, not proof. At that point, you have to stop talking with such certainty and admit it just what you think makes sense or would like to believe.

And that's perfectly legitimate, too. You have a right to share what you believe. :peace:

sarah22 · Feb 15, 2010

PadawanBater said:
You have to remember, all an atheist is, is "I don't know if there is a god".

If there is a god, and we just can't fathom, perceive or understand it, it's irrelevant, what does it matter if it does or does not exist? There's no implication, except in the world these fundamentalists have dreamed up where they've twisted reality into this belief. If God does exist, he will understand my train of thought as I existed on Earth and he will understand exactly how I came to the conclusions I've come to. If it then chose to punish me for the act of honest inquiry, like I've said dozens of times before, I'll be glad to do the Devils dirty work in Hell because I would never worship, trust or love an entity that endowed me with the gifts we share as humans - curiosity, wonder, thirst for knowledge, etc. - then punished me for utilizing them.

that would be agnostic, being unsure about gods existence. atheists believe that there is absolutely no god

sarah22 · Feb 15, 2010

morgentaler said:
Just because you're afraid of death and need to make things up to face the end does not make them real.

Science actually evaluates evidence. The afterlife stuff you're peddling isn't based on anything more real than a Stephen King novel.

I don't need to be an uber evolved being to know that you don't know shit about what happens after you die. Any claim you make to such effect just shows you to be either deluded or a liar.

what makes you think im afraid of death? why do you keep making assumptions about me being scared and insecure when you dont know me?

im not afraid of death in the slightest. im excited for it.

and im not peddling anything about the afterlife. im telling you that *I* will have an afterlife and that *I* have a soul and thats it. im not saying that you do or that you will. your reality and my reality are different because our consciousnesses are different.

you also just said that i dont know shit about what happens after i die, so sweetheart...neither do you. so you cant tell me its all BS because you dont know either lol. i dont profess to know things that other people dont know. im professing that i know this to be true for me, and for me alone. i dont make any assumptions or conclusions about other people and their lives.

you're speaking as though you truly believe that science has already explained everything in the universe, by saying that these things are no more real than a novel. science has explained a lot of things...but it hasnt explained everything. if one day a scientist is able to prove to me with hard core data that is sound and organized and makes sense, that there is no such thing as the afterlife and there is no such thing as a "soul" (and keep in mind people use the term soul differently. i equate soul with spirit or consciousness) and they can fully explain every personal experience i've had, then i will reevaluate my position. because im about being open to all possibilities. so if one day im proved to be wrong..then im proved to be wrong. i'll deal with it, im not arrogant enough to think that im always going to be right. but as of yet science has not proved me wrong, so i'll continue on my path...

sarah22 · Feb 15, 2010

morgentaler said:
I only know one atheist out of a few hundred that would like to see all religious people dead.

But he would also like to see all people who walk slower than him in the mall dead too.

I'm strongly opposed to baseless and dogmatic faiths.

Believing anything just for the sake of believing in "something" is dangerous, if not for the originator then for those who it effects.

And that goes for ALL faith, not just religious.
I don't like political faith any more than christian or muslim faith.

dude, i assure you that i would love to see religions go as much as you do. im not religious in any way. my personal theory is that the universe itself is god, i dont believe in some guy on a cloud with a thunderbolt. i just have had enough personal experiences for me to know that there is more to reality and this world and our existence than what meets the eye. im not saying that being religious is good, im saying its good to be open to all the possibilities that the universe has to offer.

sarah22 · Feb 15, 2010

BigTitLvr said:
You are right about atheism and religious people being similar. But only in that they both require a leap of faith, just in opposite directions.

To be either means you believe you've acquired enough evidence to make your mind up about the issue of god. Since their is no proof either way about god, only anecdotal argument, you have to begin to 'believe' at some point.

In the end, one can only be agnostic about the god question: waiting for more information... (god...not religion. religion is bullshit)

Meanwhile, you can choose to believe anything you want (including unicorns), as long as you admit you have faith, not proof. At that point, you have to stop talking with such certainty and admit it just what you think makes sense or would like to believe.

And that's perfectly legitimate, too. You have a right to share what you believe.

agreed. when it comes down to it, i would have to classify myself as agnostic because i dont know what exactly will happen when i die, i just know that certain things make absolute sense for me, and i have my personal proof to understand my position on it all. i cant prove that another person has a soul. and i cant prove *to* another person that *i* have a soul. but i can prove to myself that i have a soul...and i trust myself and my instincts to make the correct choice for me. i dont think that my spiritual path is the right path for anyone other than me. i just think that its important to see the whole spectrum of possibilities...not just focus on one end or the other. why do people have to be *either* spiritual or intellectual? why cant we be both? balance is important for me to feel grounded and whole. just like i cant have the light without the dark, or wrong without right, or cold without warm...i cant have the spirituality without the intellect or the intellect without the spirituality. i need both to be balanced.

PadawanBater · Feb 16, 2010

sarah22 said:
that would be agnostic, being unsure about gods existence. atheists believe that there is absolutely no god

Everyone is agnostic. I happen to believe there is no God because logic doesn't permit it. It's as simple as that. Omnipotence is impossible. (holy shit that might be a tattoo in the future!)

sarah22 · Feb 16, 2010

PadawanBater said:
Everyone is agnostic. I happen to believe there is no God because logic doesn't permit it. It's as simple as that. Omnipotence is impossible. (holy shit that might be a tattoo in the future!)

while i dont agree with the concept of god the way churches teach it, i do feel very strongly that there is some sort of higher power. i personally feel that the universe itself is this higher power. i think that the universe is god, and its always existed. that there isnt a beginning to it, and there wont be an end to it. thats just a personal theory of mine, i clearly dont know for sure because im not as old as the universe lol.

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