What would Lincoln do? Errors of the American Left

tangerinegreen555

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I have family that are right wingers and we are on good enough terms that we can have a discussion without one or more losing it and foaming at the mouth. When I go over issues of healthcare, defense, education, social safety net and other issues of the day, we generally agree on the need for sustaining and improving on many of the social programs and the need for rational defense policy. We diverge on political leadership to sustain and improve these programs.

You can't tell me that rednecks lack intelligence. Just like liberals, most are average in intelligence, which is to say they are smart enough to figure things out for themselves. My brother, who is a redneck, has the same k-12 education that I have. Needless to say, we grew up with the same family values and got our genetics from the same mother and father. Yet, as an adult, he bought into the idea that Obama was going to take over the government in 2016 also he's preparing for the collapse of civiliztion. The difference between us goes back to before we started kindergarten. But it isn't something I can just point at and say "there it is". He has always been more accepting of authority and moral values based in his attitudes than I was.

So, no. Most aren't racist, stupid or ignorant. The video touches on basic differences between progressive left leaning people and those that are more conservative. I don't think you can deny that liberals have "explained it" to conservatives. If there is one thing that liberals like to do is lecture and talk about their beliefs. I sure wish that Al Gore had shut the fuck up more often when he was running for office. Same goes for Kerry.
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Everybody has their own unique life experience.

If by 'rednecks' you mean conservatives, my life experience tends to show that most are racist to varying degrees, most are stupid (if you buy into fake news, I consider that stupid and/or ignorant).

Be advised I live in a rural area. I'm white, old, and look like a sterotypical Trump supporter. You'd be amazed at some of the shit I hear everyday.

I recently had a 45 minute argument from a guy who fucking insisted the 4th plane on 9/11 was shot down by the gov't. and covered up because some old guy at the Sommerset memorial told him he saw it.

I hear the N word on a near daily basis.

I hear that Hillary is a criminal despite never being charged with anything.

I hear that muslims are all terrorists and that they cheered on 9/11 and had parties.

I hear that Obama was a Kenyan born muslim.

I hear that Trump is the only guy in DC not corrupted because he has his own money. (They don't know how he got that money or who he shit on, they're just certain he's not corrupt.)

I hear that 5 million illegal Mexicans voted in the last election.

I hear that gays (and they don't use that word) should be shot.

I hear that Mexicans are stealing our jobs.
(where, I don't know-there's hardly any Mexicans around here)

I hear Fox News soundbites repeated verbatim.

I hear that liberals are communists.

A guy I know on SSI disability since his early 50's (who works everyday under the table) calls people on welfare mooches and thieves. When I ask him, 'what about you?' he says he earned his!

I have a couple good friends who are republicans. Neither voted for Trump. They voted for Hillary, and then R down the rest of the ballot.

I don't buy into classic stereotypes, but Jesus Christ, they are empowered by this caustic asshole who lucked into the presidency.

It's almost like being undercover. Somebody will use the N word, I say 'that's racist', and they say 'not really' or 'fuck you too'.

It gets old after a while. I feel out numbered around here since November. It's like Pandora's Box of racist assholes came out of hiding.

Don't get me wrong, they aren't all like that but the percentage is very high. Very high.
And why would anyone fly a confederate flag north of the Mason Dixon line? It can't be some historical reflection up north. It's meant to inflame and irritate.

I could literally give you hours of examples of this shit.

So, my life experience indicates a different picture than yours. One of less tolerance, especially when no minorities are around and they can spew their garbage freely.

Racism is coming back out of the closet again. And what's up with these 'Deport them All' bumper stickers?

I wish I was in California.
 
Big_Lou

Big_Lou

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
That said, the rural south and redneck culture is a minority. We don't have to change hardened KY rednecks and bigots like @Flaming Pie . We have to work with people who can be reasoned with.
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Not_Bad_Reggie.gif

tangerinegreen555 said:
I hear the N word on a near daily basis.

I hear that Hillary is a criminal despite never being charged with anything.

I hear that muslims are all terrorists and that they cheered on 9/11 and had parties.

I hear that Obama was a Kenyan born muslim.

I hear that Trump is the only guy in DC not corrupted because he has his own money. (They don't know how he got that money or who he shit on, they're just certain he's not corrupt.)

I hear that 5 million illegal Mexicans voted in the last election.

I hear that gays (and they don't use that word) should be shot.

I hear that Mexicans are stealing our jobs.
(where, I don't know-there's hardly any Mexicans around here)

I hear Fox News soundbites repeated verbatim.

I hear that liberals are communists.
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But enough about the RIU politics section!

 
Fender Super

Fender Super

Well-Known Member
Lincoln was the WORST president, EVER!!! Fighting the drooling rednecks to keep them in the union was a disastrous decision. it reverberates to this day. Think of the commerce California could do with the Pacific Rim, freed from the drooling of the droolers in DC. The snowflake farmers can deal with it or move the fuck to Alabama. Liberals can farm.

California money for Californians. Fuck the DSA.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
tangerinegreen555 said:
Everybody has their own unique life experience.

If by 'rednecks' you mean conservatives, my life experience tends to show that most are racist to varying degrees, most are stupid (if you buy into fake news, I consider that stupid and/or ignorant).

Be advised I live in a rural area. I'm white, old, and look like a sterotypical Trump supporter. You'd be amazed at some of the shit I hear everyday.

I recently had a 45 minute argument from a guy who fucking insisted the 4th plane on 9/11 was shot down by the gov't. and covered up because some old guy at the Sommerset memorial told him he saw it.

I hear the N word on a near daily basis.

I hear that Hillary is a criminal despite never being charged with anything.

I hear that muslims are all terrorists and that they cheered on 9/11 and had parties.

I hear that Obama was a Kenyan born muslim.

I hear that Trump is the only guy in DC not corrupted because he has his own money. (They don't know how he got that money or who he shit on, they're just certain he's not corrupt.)

I hear that 5 million illegal Mexicans voted in the last election.

I hear that gays (and they don't use that word) should be shot.

I hear that Mexicans are stealing our jobs.
(where, I don't know-there's hardly any Mexicans around here)

I hear Fox News soundbites repeated verbatim.

I hear that liberals are communists.

A guy I know on SSI disability since his early 50's (who works everyday under the table) calls people on welfare mooches and thieves. When I ask him, 'what about you?' he says he earned his!

I have a couple good friends who are republicans. Neither voted for Trump. They voted for Hillary, and then R down the rest of the ballot.

I don't buy into classic stereotypes, but Jesus Christ, they are empowered by this caustic asshole who lucked into the presidency.

It's almost like being undercover. Somebody will use the N word, I say 'that's racist', and they say 'not really' or 'fuck you too'.

It gets old after a while. I feel out numbered around here since November. It's like Pandora's Box of racist assholes came out of hiding.

Don't get me wrong, they aren't all like that but the percentage is very high. Very high.
And why would anyone fly a confederate flag north of the Mason Dixon line? It can't be some historical reflection up north. It's meant to inflame and irritate.

I could literally give you hours of examples of this shit.

So, my life experience indicates a different picture than yours. One of less tolerance, especially when no minorities are around and they can spew their garbage freely.

Racism is coming back out of the closet again. And what's up with these 'Deport them All' bumper stickers?

I wish I was in California.
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Oregon is better than CA. It's more like the CA I grew up in. Fewer people, better environment. And mostly progressive liberal.

I lived in Idaho. I was definitely a fish out of water there.

I agree there is a large slice of the population in the US that is determined to be ignorant and will remain so. I don't mean they are ignorant because they vote for right wingers but because they hold onto beliefs like white racial superiority in spite of all evidence around them proving otherwise. Also climate science denial.

But they are the minority. The people who are important are moderate, thoughtful, socially progressive but fiscally conservative voters or are moderate, thoughtful fiscally progressive but socially conservative voters. I believe the Republican party has taken for granted and ignored the moderate conservative and there is no reason why the Democratic Party shouldn't work with that group. The last election swung on these people and I think the next one might swing back. But these people need to be heard and accounted for in the Democratic Party platform.
 
Fender Super

Fender Super

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Your revolution would mean the death of millions, starting with the aged and moving to the infirm, then the general population.

So, aim at yourself if you want the shooting to start.
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So let me get this straight - you think there is a peaceful solution to the polarization that could have been avoided if Lincoln had just said, "Go fuck yourselves, we don't need donkey-raping shiteaters like you southern scum so buh bye. Have fun being conquered by Mexico."

Have fun slurping up the Nazis' sloppy seconds.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Fender Super said:
So let me get this straight - you think there is a peaceful solution to the polarization that could have been avoided if Lincoln had just said, "Go fuck yourselves, we don't need donkey-raping shiteaters like you southern scum so buh bye. Have fun being conquered by Mexico."

Have fun slurping up the Nazis' sloppy seconds.
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Umm, this isn't 1859 and we don't live in a Mad Max movie. Do you need any more information?
 
Fender Super

Fender Super

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Umm, this isn't 1859 and we don't live in a Mad Max movie. Do you need any more information?
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Those people's minds are in 1859. They will not negotiate. You can only negotiate with others who are willing. Therefore, the liberal left needs to arm for war. That's what is coming. It may not be 1859 now, but when the infrastructure starts getting blown up,it may be much like 1859, again, complete with famine, disease and more death. You're operating under the mistaken notion, "everything will be all right."

Trump and his voters are the modern-day equivalent of the Visigoths. Go read about the fall of the Roman Empire. The parallels are fairly scary.
 
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ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fender Super said:
So let me get this straight - you think there is a peaceful solution to the polarization that could have been avoided if Lincoln had just said, "Go fuck yourselves, we don't need donkey-raping shiteaters like you southern scum so buh bye. Have fun being conquered by Mexico."

Have fun slurping up the Nazis' sloppy seconds.
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This paragraph honestly doesn't even make sense to me, but I'll try to respond to a few bits n pieces;

Lincoln was elected after generations of steadily deepening social, ideological and economic divisions. By the time he arrived in office it was really too late, as the wheels of the Confederacy were already turning and not enough people believed that their differences could be solved peacefully to keep trying.

There was also a very stark and basic schism between North and South on the issue of slavery that just could not seem to be resolved by compromise.

I really don't think that our modern society is anywhere near this divided; not enough otherwise rational people want to take up arms over climate change or abortion rights to make the threat of conflict an imminent possibility.

My use of the example of Lincoln in the original post was in reference to his communicating style. He knew that screaming obscenities at one another across the aisle won't lead to compromise or viable solutions.

I'm trying to see what I can learn by his example and apply it to the current political environment of deepening divisions before things go off the rails any more than they already have.

So feel free to join in- just wipe that spunk off your chin first. :bigjoint:
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
tangerinegreen555 said:
Everybody has their own unique life experience.

If by 'rednecks' you mean conservatives,
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The people who are now in power. I can't call them conservatives. There is not a single bit of "conserve" in their ideology or behavior. What's conservative about causing global climate change or polluting the air and water? What's conservative about foreign wars? What's conservative about suppressing the right of people to vote? For that matter, in the US, where separation of church and state is a founding principle, what's conservative about forcing WASP extreme religious values onto the general public. What's conservative about cutting taxes, boosting spending and ballooning an already huge national debt? None of these actions by the radical right conserve traditional values in the United States where freedom of religion, sharing of public resources and science has been core values since the beginning of our republic.

The Reagan conservative movement was always a sham and any pretense of fiscal conservatism died during the Bush jr presidency. I call them reactionary right wing radicals or radical right for short. I call them spend thrifts, liars, fascists but I can't dignify them with the label conservative. The current actions of the right conserve nothing.

I call the people who vote for right wing politicians and who practice their deliberate mean ignorance, rednecks. They call themselves that too. Hillbilly or cracker would be appropriate in some areas of the US.

I'm open to other terms but conservative simply doesn't apply to Trump and his followers.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
The people who are now in power. I can't call them conservatives. There is not a single bit of "conserve" in their ideology or behavior. What's conservative about causing global climate change or polluting the air and water? What's conservative about foreign wars? What's conservative about suppressing the right of people to vote? For that matter, in the US, where separation of church and state is a founding principle, what's conservative about forcing WASP extreme religious values onto the general public. What's conservative about cutting taxes, boosting spending and ballooning an already huge national debt? None of these actions by the radical right conserve traditional values in the United States where freedom of religion, sharing of public resources and science has been core values since the beginning of our republic.

The Reagan conservative movement was always a sham and any pretense of fiscal conservatism died during the Bush jr presidency. I call them reactionary right wing radicals or radical right for short. I call them spend thrifts, liars, fascists but I can't dignify them with the label conservative. The current actions of the right conserve nothing.

I call the people who vote for right wing politicians and who practice their deliberate mean ignorance, rednecks. They call themselves that too. Hillbilly or cracker would be appropriate in some areas of the US.

I'm open to other terms but conservative simply doesn't apply to Trump and his followers.
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i call them authoritaryans.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Fender Super said:
Oh geez, another Positive Pollyanna. We are as divided as we were in 1859. War is coming. If you don't believe it, you have my permission to be the first to die. The division in our country is more like the division between the US and Japan on Dec. 6, 1941.

As far as wiping spunk off my chin, you are free to kill your family, fuck the bodies and then kill yourself. Nice to know you're a rectum with legs.
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I'm suggesting that because you want this war so much, why don't you fertilize the tree of liberty with your own blood. Do it now. Your sacrifice will be historic.

But then again, history isn't your best subject. Why don't you just shoot yourself and avoid the drama.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fender Super said:
Those people's minds are in 1859. They will not negotiate. You can only negotiate with others who are willing. They're. Therefore, the liberal left needs to arm for war. That's what is coming. It may not be 1859 now, but when the infrastructure starts getting blown up,it may be much like 1859, again, complete with famine, disease and more death. You're operating under the mistaken notion, "everything will be all right."

Trump and his voters are the modern-day equivalent of the Visigoths. Go read about the fall of the Roman Empire. The parallels are fairly scary.
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The Chump's populism only runs so deep; he's a fairly obvious ideological fraud and will be unable to rally his base to much more than they're doing right now. It's bad, but it isn't Visigoth bad; no one is taking picks and shovels to freeways or tearing out power lines.

The ugly underbelly of American racism, shamed into hiding for half a century, is making its presence known in an atmosphere it thinks is conducive, even friendly to its ideas... but really I think what we're seeing is the death throes of a once nearly universal set of attitudes.

Honestly, it's a convenient smokescreen for the ultra wealthy to use against the gullible and under educated to divert attention from the REAL problems of increasing income and wealth inequality.

Let's call that what it is; CLASSISM and ARISTOCRACY. These are the enemies of today. Climate change 'debates', abortion rights, racism and nativism are being exploited as divisive issues in order to distract attention from what's really wrecking our economy and our shared prosperity.
 
Fender Super

Fender Super

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I'm suggesting that because you want this war so much, why don't you fertilize the tree of liberty with your own blood. Do it now. Your sacrifice will be historic.

But then again, history isn't your best subject. Why don't you just shoot yourself and avoid the drama.
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What makes you think I want it? You children won't remember the '60s and the battles fought then. That's your loss because your blind optimism will be the end of you.

I'll stake my knowledge of history against yours, any time. You want to be Tommy? Deaf, dumb and blind? Because that's what you're being. Tell me three things you or any thinking individual has in common with the Nazis and the drooling, knuckle-draggers who elected him? I want ALL right wingers dead. Not a useful molecule of protoplasm in any of them. They are sub-human filth and the earth needs to be rid of all of them.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Fender Super said:
Those people's minds are in 1859. They will not negotiate. You can only negotiate with others who are willing. They're. Therefore, the liberal left needs to arm for war. That's what is coming. It may not be 1859 now, but when the infrastructure starts getting blown up,it may be much like 1859, again, complete with famine, disease and more death. You're operating under the mistaken notion, "everything will be all right."

Trump and his voters are the modern-day equivalent of the Visigoths. Go read about the fall of the Roman Empire. The parallels are fairly scary.
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My, you interpret history with a lot of drama.

"Trump and his voters are the modern-day equivalent of the Visigoths" If it were a figurative analogy, I'd find it interesting. As a literal one, it is baseless.

You are just a variant of the apocalyptic survivalist who think civilization is about to crash. From what I've seen, these people are hopeless losers in today's world and they blame the world instead of themselves for being such a loser. They think they will survive and the people who are successful will die. Sorry to let you down, but survivalist losers are hapless sociopaths who would be losers regardless of the situation.

Toddle along now and masturbate while you imagine what that war would look like. Yuck.
 
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