who's in construction? need some advice on ice dams and damage..

Maybe Manuel George Oliverra... I hear Jesus was a carpenter...

WeedFreak78 said:

I got bad ice dams on my house,i know it's because of poor sealing/insulation, going to fix that next year. Last night, before i went to bed i heard a loud, house shaking crack. My mother says she heard the same thing the other day. i just went into the attic and can see a 3-4ft section of my eves are full of ice, like full joist to joists, 6-8" deep of ice. I have water running through the walls to the basement. I think the ice froze in the eves /walls and through freezing and expansion is starting to break/separate the structure, but i don't see any evidence of it.

So, here's the dilemma..i don't want to be bringing insurance/construction people in the house, for what should be obvious reasons, for about another 4 months. Mainly worried about insurance appraisers coming and seeing a not permitted room with elec/plumbing in my basement, even though it won't be in operation when i do have them come, it'll still be fairly obvious whats going on, tear down isn't an option, I can probably pass it off as a climate controlled storage. I need to mitigate damage until then. First thing is I'm going out to do some ice breaking/melting, going to see if i can find some shingle safe ice melt, and deal with the dams. How do i thaw out inside the walls/eves after that? Oh and because of the pitch of the roof i can just barely access the eaves from inside, laying on my belly arms fully outstretched. F'ing sucks because the roof is only 2 yrs old.

anyone in FLA/NV/AZ/CA/southern CO or any other warm(er) southern state who wants to trade property for property?? lol.

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i hate to bring bad news ... most of the insurance companies won't pay for ice damage... i know cuz i own my construction company and i have to fix stuff like that from time to time ... the reason why they don't pay is .... home owner is responsible for removal of snow from the roof ... check your insurance policy and tell me if i'm wrong

WeedFreak78 said:

Yeah hired a well known local company, it's warranted, I'll be giving him a call at some point. New shingles, striped to the boards, some boards were replaced. I had siding/gutters done after the roof, and they had to replace some fascia boards and repair some other hidden rot behind the gutters and I'm wondering if those guys compromised something. That will be great if i get into a "its their fault, no its their fault" situation. I had to use some, um persuasive actions, to get the siding guys to stick to the agreed upon contract, they weren't going to reproduce the period correct trim on the house, which was agreed to and written in the contract, because they said they under quoted me and they weren't going to make "AS MUCH as they originally thought"..their exact words... I'm pretty sure they will do anything possible to avoid coming back here..and honestly if i don't have to deal with another contractor, it'll be fine by me.

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DO NOT PUT A FORCED AIR HEATER IN YOUR ATTIC AS IT ONLY WORSEN YOUR PROBLEM & CREATE MASSIVE CONDENSATION .You need to melt the ice outside to stop water being FORCED into the attic .

Your roofing contractor should of used a product ( Ice & water shield ) at the gutter line of your roof , the product is a sticky roll of 36 inch wide rubberized asphalt membrane ,it self seals all nail holes from the shingles & prevents ice & water dams , the ice & water shield is supposed to extend a full 36 inches into the attic space ,if you have extended eve's that extend farther than 8 inches past the outer wall the contractor is REQUIRED BY BUDING CODE TO INSTALL A 2nd row of the material on all eve edges .

Many scab contractors skip installing ice & water at the eve & in the valley as CODE requires because of the material cost , a cheap Home Depot brand costs about $80 a 33 ft long roll , high quality ice & water such as Grace ice & water costs as much as $ 180 for a 33 ft long x 36 inch wide roll , skipping using this material will save the contractor atleast $1,000 in material costs & the roof will never leak in a rain storm .

I'd bet money they either skipped installing any Ice & water shield membrane at the eve edge , or they didn't install the material where it extends a full 36 inches past the outer wall , if they had installed the material properly you would of never had any water forced into the building from the weight of the ice .

You need to melt the ice using a product called Roof Melt which is Calcium Chloride , it's safe to use on all asphalt shingles & won't void manufacturer warranty .

What's causing the water to run uphill & under the shingles is called Capillary Action where the weight of the ice is causing water to push against gravity , read here to understand why the water is going uphill .
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Capillarity.svg

Get a ladder & start broadcasting the calcium chloride all over the iced roof areas & in the gutters , if possible disconnect your downspouts to increase water flow , after spreading out the calcium chloride over all iced areas water will start flowing fast , this is why you want to cover the entire gutter area with a thick layer of the product so the gutters melt out faster than the roof ,disconnecting all downspout will also help keep the freshly melted water from being forced further into the interior of the attic .

If you have a small plumbing torch melt the ice in the gutter outlets that will be exposed after disconnecting the downspouts , torch melting the ice blocking the outlet will relieve much of the capillary action caused by the fast melting ice from calcium chloride & it gives the water someplace to go , if you don't clear the gutter outlets & relieve pressure the new water has no choice but to flow up hill & in the attic.

You may have to spend several hundred dollars on calcium chloride & repeat the process several times in a day or 2 but it's the proper way to correct ice dams .

Your contractor may have fucked up your existing ventilation system on the roof as well , when replacing rotten fascia boards they coulda blocked any soffitt vent system , they could of not replaced existing can style square roof vents , shingled over the holes & relyied on an inferior ridge vent system to vent the attic space .

Most ice dams are caused by clogged gutters or improper ventilation of attics or plenum spaces , the thickness of attic insulation has nothing to do with your situation being that this is a new problem occurring directly after installing a new roof system .

Fyi I hold a Journeymans card in roofing & waterproofing & know wtf I'm talking about , whatever you do please don't add heat to the attic unless you want the entire roof deck's underside to be completely soaked with condensation .

panhead said:

DO NOT PUT A FORCED AIR HEATER IN YOUR ATTIC AS IT ONLY WORSEN YOUR PROBLEM & CREATE MASSIVE CONDENSATION .You need to melt the ice outside to stop water being FORCED into the attic .

Your roofing contractor should of used a product ( Ice & water shield ) at the gutter line of your roof , the product is a sticky roll of 36 inch wide rubberized asphalt membrane ,it self seals all nail holes from the shingles & prevents ice & water dams , the ice & water shield is supposed to extend a full 36 inches into the attic space ,if you have extended eve's that extend farther than 8 inches past the outer wall the contractor is REQUIRED BY BUDING CODE TO INSTALL A 2nd row of the material on all eve edges .

Many scab contractors skip installing ice & water at the eve & in the valley as CODE requires because of the material cost , a cheap Home Depot brand costs about $80 a 33 ft long roll , high quality ice & water such as Grace ice & water costs as much as $ 180 for a 33 ft long x 36 inch wide roll , skipping using this material will save the contractor atleast $1,000 in material costs & the roof will never leak in a rain storm .

I'd bet money they either skipped installing any Ice & water shield membrane at the eve edge , or they didn't install the material where it extends a full 36 inches past the outer wall , if they had installed the material properly you would of never had any water forced into the building from the weight of the ice .

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I ended up not putting the heater up there, for the reasons you stated. I know the roofers DID put ice and water shield from the edge of the roof( overhangs the side of the house appx 12-16"?) to 6' up. They gave us the option to ice and water shield the whole roof, but i was advised against it by a couple friends in construction as just added cost.

panhead said:

You need to melt the ice using a product called Roof Melt which is Calcium Chloride , it's safe to use on all asphalt shingles & won't void manufacturer warranty .

What's causing the water to run uphill & under the shingles is called Capillary Action where the weight of the ice is causing water to push against gravity , read here to understand why the water is going uphill .
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Capillarity.svg

Get a ladder & start broadcasting the calcium chloride all over the iced roof areas & in the gutters , if possible disconnect your downspouts to increase water flow , after spreading out the calcium chloride over all iced areas water will start flowing fast , this is why you want to cover the entire gutter area with a thick layer of the product so the gutters melt out faster than the roof ,disconnecting all downspout will also help keep the freshly melted water from being forced further into the interior of the attic .

If you have a small plumbing torch melt the ice in the gutter outlets that will be exposed after disconnecting the downspouts , torch melting the ice blocking the outlet will relieve much of the capillary action caused by the fast melting ice from calcium chloride & it gives the water someplace to go , if you don't clear the gutter outlets & relieve pressure the new water has no choice but to flow up hill & in the attic.

You may have to spend several hundred dollars on calcium chloride & repeat the process several times in a day or 2 but it's the proper way to correct ice dams .

Click to expand...

I've been doing this, i chiseled drainage paths through the dams and filled nylons with CaCL2, as well as dumping it along the edges of the roof lke you said..

panhead said:

Your contractor may have fucked up your existing ventilation system on the roof as well , when replacing rotten fascia boards they coulda blocked any soffitt vent system , they could of not replaced existing can style square roof vents , shingled over the holes & relyied on an inferior ridge vent system to vent the attic space .

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I'm pretty sure this is exactly what happened. When the roof was done they installed something like 4"x10" screened vents in every other bay on the soffit. But when the siding was done the put a perforated vinyl soffit over the whole thing, i don't think they removed the screened vents or cut out between every bay, which is what i believe was supposed to be done to get the needed airflow out of that type of soffit cover.

panhead said:

Most ice dams are caused by clogged gutters or improper ventilation of attics or plenum spaces , the thickness of attic insulation has nothing to do with your situation being that this is a new problem occurring directly after installing a new roof system .

Fyi I hold a Journeymans card in roofing & waterproofing & know wtf I'm talking about , whatever you do please don't add heat to the attic unless you want the entire roof deck's underside to be completely soaked with condensation .

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My two problems are poor ventilation - goes back to what i believe to be improperly installed soffit venting,and lack of insulation in the whole attic. the lack of insulation allows house heat up there, raising temps, the venting isn't getting the heat out quick enough and melting the roof. since i closed off the big heat leaks the other day, the attic dropped temp and is maintaining close to outside temps. It's not a new problem, we've had theses issues as long as we have lived here..but in the past we knew the roof was junk and dealt with it. We're seriously considering selling cheap in the spring, with full disclosure of the issues, and letting the next people deal with it. Personally , at this point I'd take the loss just to be out and heading somewhere i don't have to deal with this winter BS anymore.

@WeedFreak79 , sounds like your doing everything right , if i was still roofing & came to your home to address your ice dam issue i would of had my guys chisel out canals thru the ice exactly how you did , i even thought of reccomending it but ya never know if somebody is gonna get hurt following advice so i didnt mention working at removing pathways to relieve capillary water pressure .

Sounds like your a pretty smart guy & understand the multiple problems you have & you may be correct it moving .

However your roof contractor did fuk you over & is liable for damages over the ice & water installation, building codes are specific about ice & water installation at gutters & valleys , im picturing your home as a turn of the century home with the standard 24 inch eve overhang with fancy fascia boards as was the custom , if the roofer used a full roll of the product at the gutter edge it only leaves 12 inches protecting the attic which is insufficient , they should of installed the product where it covered a full 36 inches of attic area within their initial bid price being that its building code demanded , they shouldnt of offered to install more product as an extra charge .

If the ice & water isnt covering a full 36 inches of living space you have a open & shut case to sue the contractor & instantly win , your city building code enforcement division will testify on your behalf if you notify them & you can hold the contractor liable for all damages , a total roof tear off & replacement as well as replacing all the attic insulation , contractors have insurance that will end up paying you off .

If i were you i'd give some serious thought into a law suit weather your moving or not , they caused damage via faulty workmanship & their cost cutting profit margin increasing methods will cause you to loose thousands at resale .

If you do decide to sue you'd win hands down bro .