Why are Americans so afraid of Socialism?

dontexist21 said:
Lets agree to disagree, not like anyone can do anything about it anyway. I am tired, and I doubt my continuing this debate will be very productive. Even through I want people to help each other without government intervention, I have lost a lot of my faith in them, especially those that run certain corporations.
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Strange, on that account I'd say that government is the problem. Corrupt, influence peddling government, who ignored an electorate that cried out in one voice against the bail outs. As usual, the rich get richer, and the middle and the poor get shoved further down.

But yeah, I hope you didn't take anything I said personally. Like I said to Twistyman, it's all politics which really needs to be solidly reformed, before anything else is looked at. Perhaps if the government wasn't in the hole I wouldn't object so much to considering expanding healthcare to more people, but as long as our country is in debt the first priority should always be for it to get out of debt.

Anyway, have a good evening.
 
Greed is everywhere, get used to it. it's a human condition which knows no party lines. the difference is the Govt. greed has no checks or balances, the free market does. Which would you prefer? One gives you choices, the other does not.
 
TheBrutalTruth said:
And how much do you pay in taxes for it, or perhaps your friends? Or maybe other family members?

How do you justify enslaving your own family to yourself?

And if these purported studies of yours exist, then where are they.

I don't see proof of your statement, and seeing is believing.


But whatever,

it's not personal, it's politics, so I hope you have a nice night as well, even if our views are radically different from each other's.
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BT .what do you want..me to show my pay stubs... on a $430.00 gross I cleared $375.00on a $10.00 per hr job, thats including unemployment ins. fees, union dues, fed and prov. tax... and if family members don't work they don't pay..this myth of crushing taxes is wrong..our income tax runs about 18%.... all this enslaving talk boggles the mind....
the only study I need is that fact that Canada and Canadians will do anything to keep our system..if it was so bad and a tax burden wouldn't the population be up in arms...our citizens are happy in our health. more or less... its yours that isn't
.and I did post an article saying what the US people think about your system..if your examples are to be taken as fact, then so should mine.... I respect your opinion...if not they way you present them with a slightly acidic tone.......
So dinner at 8...;-)
 
Twistyman said:
BT .what do you want..me to show my pay stubs... on a $430.00 gross I cleared $375.00on a $10.00 per hr job, thats including unemployment ins. fees, union dues, fed and prov. tax... and if family members don't work they don't pay..this myth of crushing taxes is wrong..our income tax runs about 18%.... all this enslaving talk boggles the mind....
the only study I need is that fact that Canada and Canadians will do anything to keep our system..if it was so bad and a tax burden wouldn't the population be up in arms...our citizens are happy in our health. more or less... its yours that isn't
.and I did post an article saying what the US people think about your system..if your examples are to be taken as fact, then so should mine.... I respect your opinion...if not they way you present them with a slightly acidic tone.......
So dinner at 8...;-)
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I don't want to see your pay stubs. Besides, you have to remember that in the United States the base tax rate is 15% + whatever income tax is.

So once a person gets beyond basic entry level positions it starts to hurt. It doesn't strike me as justifiable for any one to demand that some one else work for their benefit, that is what slavery was. My equalizing any system that relies upon forced labor through any method (whether it be actual hard labor, or taxation) is a description of what the system is.

Though what about a single person earning around $45K in Canada, how badly are they mauled?

Or, a person that wants to run their own business how much do they have to pay in fees, and license and in overhead to cover the expense of doing paperwork?

How much is spent on frivolous lawsuits in Canada?

What about obesity rates?

There are large differences between the United States and Canada, and any potential problems seen in Canada with its healthcare system are likely to be magnified at least 3 fold if not higher in the United States.

The answer that "it works in Canada" or in the United Kingdom isn't an answer at all, but that is often the only response that a person that supports Nationalized Healthcare is capable of giving. There is no research conducted by the electorate to actually determine what impact the ideas of politicians are likely to have on them.

Jefferson's vision of a informed electorate is a mockery. I can't help but laugh when I think of how many people do nothing more but sit on the TV and make their decisions based on how a politician looks, dresses, or sounds.

Or don't even care enough to vote.

The idea of democracy is slowly being eroded by corruption, and apathy.
 
The problem with America is that you have HUGE amounts of people who LOVE to go to the fucking doctor. My ex wife would sneeze and go to the doc, get a scratch, off to the doc it was fucking ridiculous. I have been to the doctor 2 times in the last decade, once when I rolled my vehicle and once when I severed my finger. I had no choice for the rollover, I would not have gone i was hardly hurt only needed a few stitches. The finger I pretty much had to go, didn't go to E-room either, went to the clinic which i called before hand. Got it put back on same day. I just read about 9 people in San Diego who combined over a 6 year period went to the doctor 27,000 times, and they had no coverage, just went to the E-Room. No wonder you have to have insurance, with the bills made so high to cover all those E-Room health thieves. My girlfriend cut her finger and got 5 stitches, took all of 10 minutes in and out, the bill was $600. WTF? that's like charging $3600/hour. When I was growing up there was a neighbor who was a surgeon and when we got bad cuts we just went to his house and he would sew it up, no big deal, no cost. The USA is full of a bunch of fucking pussies and babies who can't stand to have an itch for god sakes. And half of them are going to the E-Room so they MUST be taken care of, and of course they don't pay, so now the hospitals are hemorrhaging money from the E-Room people w/o insurance so they of course charge exorbitant fees to those who can pay to subsidize those who aren't. Combined with people dependency on doctors and visits to the E-Room 3 times a day, it can get quite expensive. Then add in the costs of getting sued if you fuck up a surgery and the costs of the education to get your foot in the door. of course the doctors don't take family medicine. Fam medicine doesn't pay shit, its the poorest doctors doing that. When you got 1 million to pay back for school well your gonna take the much more lucrative surgeon and specialist positions.

Anyway this has been agreat discussion, lot of knowledgable people posting here, good to see.
 
D^rail said:
we all need rise up and take care of each other. The whole mindset of people being out for themselves needs to go. I have no problem with paying taxes for education and healthcare. those should be basic human rights.
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Do you have a problem usig force to make everybody do what you would "voluntarily" do? Do you believe in initiating force against people who harm nobody?
 
Why is it i never hear any Canadians complaining about their heatlhcare program. Everyone i meet seems to be satisfied

It always seems to be American conservatives
 
Just look up the hard data on any socialized health care system instead of "people say". The actual data paints a very different picture.....
 
Interesting how the education issue was not really discussed, goes to show you what issue is the biggest factor today in America.
 
dontexist21 said:
Interesting how the education issue was not really discussed, goes to show you what issue is the biggest factor today in America.
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Public education is forcefully funded at the
point of a gun via property taxes. Why isn't THAT discussed?
 
Rob Roy said:
Do you have a problem usig force to make everybody do what you would "voluntarily" do? Do you believe in initiating force against people who harm nobody?
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Again with the force bullshit. Taxes are a part of civilized society, get over it. The problem is the people levying and spending the taxes don't use the money in a civilized way. Instead of taking care of the citizenry, they give it to despots and run a military budget equivalent to all the rest of the worlds countries combined, fight wars on foriegn soils, give huge tax breaks to corporations and basically game the system. If taxes were used as they were intended, we would get a lot more bang for the buck. Giving Banks and corporations (Wall street) billions, does not seem to fit the bill at all. I suppose you have a well paying job with great health insurance. If all people had the chance to acquire those benefits, maybe unfettered Capitalism would be great. Reality says that is and never was the case. There are only a small percentage that ever rise above lower middle class. People in the 250K+ range are less than 1.5%, 100K+ is only 15%, 55% of the people make less than 50K. There are not enough well paying jobs to go around under capitalism. That 1.5% have 75% of the wealth, what's up with that, Capitalism may have started out as a great Idea, but as it has evolved, it sucks.

Capitalist class (1%)Top-level executives, high-rung politicians, heirs. Ivy League education common.Upper class 1%Top-level executives, celebrities, heirs; income of $500,000+ common. Ivy league education common.The super-rich (0.9%)Multi-millionaires whose incomes commonly exceed $350,000; includes celebrities and powerful executives/politicians. Ivy League education common

As one can see, that is the true capitalist class. The rest of us are pawns.
 
Have you noticed Med Man that alot of posters who were all PRO obama have been drifting away....pretty soon you will be all alone....again. :lol:
 
Taxes are part of a civilized society? Your "civilized society" uses force to extract money from people that harm nobody? You do not deny that ? You are okay with that Medicine Man? Using force to take something is theft isn't it?
 
Get over it Rob Roy you have to pay taxes!.............Americans have been paying taxes since the founding of this country......cry me a river:roll:
 
CrackerJax said:
Have you noticed Med Man that alot of posters who were all PRO obama have been drifting away....pretty soon you will be all alone....again. :lol:
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Has there ever been a candidate in the last 50 years that did what he said he'd do after he got elected, I don't know of any. Anyway smart ass, I've been holding Obamas feet to the fire in case you haven't noticed. Tell me oh wise one, are you a capitalist, (In the top 1%) or are you just a pawn like the rest of us, a wannabee capitalist. Don't worry, you'll wise up some day, Hmmmmm...... Maybe not. Also, don't forget about Tips, He'll be with Obama long after I'm gone.
 
CrackerJax said:
Which means renters ride for free.
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No, we don't our landlords pay property taxes, and pass on that cost to us.

Now, I might be tempted to say my landlord rides for free, but that'd possibly be spun into something that I am not trying to say at all. Mostly, because my landlords are good people, (They are a husband and wife that own 3 - 4 apartment complexes.)

I wish I could be that successful, and I do hope I am that successful when I am their age.

Anyway, but no, renters do not ride for free.
 
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