Dryxi
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you could provide a citation? I don't remember suggesting anything of the sort. Are you attempting to say things for me? Common fallback.
Why do libertarians support Republicans?
- Thread starter Fogdog
- Start date
Antidote Man
Well-Known Member
I understand. My actual intention was not to represent libertarians but to show all of these belief systems have things in common. I'm sure there are beliefs of mine that overlap with theirs... but i am certainly not a republican in hiding and I do see the truths with what your saying about that
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
If it was sarcasm, it follows that this is an instance where Democrats and libertarians hold different views. Otherwise it is internally inconsistent.
I would not attempt to say things for you (I assume that by this you mean to put words in your figurative mouth) since I am trying to winnow the framework of reasoning from your postings. You are resisting this.
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
But they're ALWAYS abused, because in every situation, you eventually run into a person who will game the system, cheat, lie, steal, and possibly kill.
That is human nature. Most people are corruptible. Some resist temptations that would drive the weak wild, and some seek temptation actively,
to exploit it personally. Most people fall somewhere in the middle of those two extremes, though, and in moments of weakness, even the strong can be lured away from their resolve.
When you remove oversight from businesses that make more money than most nations, that is a recipe for disaster.
When you rely on voluntary donations to fund the national infrastructure, that is a disaster waiting, eagerly, to happen.
When you grant States too many rights, they abuse them, reach beyond them, abridge them, restrict them...
None of this is supposition, the facts are readily available...This is what people do when offered the opportunity.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
That poll. You can't tell us what a libertarian is. Did the "19% who self identify as libertarian" know what that meant. Given your fuzzy logic, my guess is no. Besides the only poll that matters is an election poll. Libertarians drew slightly less than 1.2% of the vote, while Democrats drew 51% of the vote. You can hang your hat on a 2015 poll if you like, I'll stick to a poll that really mattered.
I'm not arguing, so much as repeating back what you said. I can understand why you don't like it and it feels argumentative. What you are saying appears the same to me.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Regarding the kerfluffle. People get really sensitive when taken at their word. Don't worry, I won't do that with you.
I'm sorry that your feelings where hurt when you were taken for a GOP MAGA. It's my understanding that you voted for Trump, was I wrong about that?
PadawanWarrior
Well-Known Member
It's ok. I had a cookie. I feel much better now. Thanks.
CANON_Grow
Well-Known Member
Yes siree Bob, just look at the Republican party for proof of that statement.
EmeraldØsiris
Well-Known Member
Republicans are more for free trade than democrats, that's what I meant. Democrats want to regulate everything = retarded bureaucracy. There's a vast difference between a large institution and totalitarian government. Also, I don't think anything Darwinistic could be attributed to the Republican Party as they are pretty religious in comparison. They are also stricter constitutionalists, as are the libertarians in extreme, therefore the only noteworty difference is in the realm of social liberalism. Republicans don't score high here because they are mostly conservative. Conservativism isn't just a US phenomenon, you have conservatism in all societies. Some believe the new ways are wrong... I was born in the early 80's, and I'm not much impressed with the way things are these days either. I don't judge though. Also, I don't like to pay taxes, being told what to do, and how to do it.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I will restrict myself to the bolded. Social Darwinism has little to do with evolutionary theory. It has everything to do with the Calvinist notion that material success correlates with God’s favor. Basically, it fosters a contempt for the poor that goes so far as to rationalize letting them suffer and die, since that is their ordained fate. It’s ugly.
“Less government” is a cover for this sanctimonious ugliness.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
You said a lot, some of which I might even agree with. Before diving into that other stuff, let's start with the first part of the first line.
Why I think that fragment of a sentence is false and reduces credibility of the rest of your post:
Tariff Tracker: Tracking the Economic Impact of Tariffs
The Trump administration imposed nearly $80 billion worth of new taxes on Americans by levying tariffs on thousands of products in 2018 and 2019, amounting to one of the largest tax increases in decades. The Biden administration has kept most of the Trump administration tariffs in place
taxfoundation.org
- The Trump administration imposed nearly $80 billion worth of new taxes on Americans by levying tariffs on thousands of products, which is equivalent to one of the largest tax increases in decades. Based on 2021 import levels and country exemptions, the tariffs amounted to a $52.6 billion tax increase in 2021.
- We estimate retaining the tariffs put in place under the Trump administration will reduce economic output, income, and employment.
- The Biden administration has kept most of the Trump administration tariffs in place, except for a five-year suspension of tariffs that were part of a WTO aircraft dispute and replacement of certain steel and aluminum tariffs with tariff rate quotas.
- We estimate the tariffs still in effect will reduce long-run GDP by 0.22 percent, wages by 0.14 percent, and employment by 173,000 full-time equivalent jobs.
All to say that the taxes and economic affects of tariffs are harmful but useful. Trump enacted them in a ham handed way that caused the manufacturing sector to enter recession in 2019, so I did have complaints for how they were enacted but not with the reason given for doing so.
Agree or disagree with whether or not tariffs should ever be used but to say Republicans don't enact them and Democrats do is false based upon the facts.
EmeraldØsiris
Well-Known Member
Ok, we're talking about levying reciprocal trade taxation on products like solar panels being dumped on the US market by China and the bleeding of our tax payer dollars. Yes, solar is heavily subsidized. When a country imposes tax on a product from another country the cost of that product increases. If that same product is shipped to us the cost of the product may be extremely low, even below the cost of what it cost to produce that product because the Chinese gov't is using the money it's making from taxing our product and tax payers $$ to subsidize production of their product. That's cheating, and cheating is not the desired outcome in a free market. Nor is devaluing currency.
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
that's not cheating till both sides agree to play by the same book of rules...something i don't believe has happened.
the U.S. saying "this is the way it is, worldwide." only works if the wide world agrees to it, which they do NOT.
and incidentally, we do exactly the same subsidies thing you are accusing the chinese of....
EmeraldØsiris
Well-Known Member
Norway, for instance levies over a 300% tax on some American made cars. The bigger the engine, the higher the tax. How are we supposed to compete with German, Italian or French made cars when Americans over-average drive engines with much larger engine cars? A great example would be the success of Tesla where little or no import tax was levied. So much success that companies like Volvo and BMW now have vouched to only offer electric cars within a set number of years. Tax is a hinderance to sales in this case, and not intended to protect national interests such as jobs, as Norway doesn't even make cars. We do subsidize industry, and a lot of other questionable things, but do we dump subsidized products in China?
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
another way of saying that is "the more fuel the car wastes, and the more pollution it produces, the higher the tax."...so maybe American car makers should quit trying to shove American choices down the throats of Europe and give them what they want?
I highly doubt that Tesla's "success" is what inspired Volvo or BMW to make that decision. They made a commitment on their own, to help the environment. Don't denigrate that by comparing them to Tesla, which is run by a fascist with little love for the country that is making him even more obscenely wealthy than he already is, his fortune started with blood emeralds, and will end in similar fashion.
China buys agricultural goods and manufactured items from us, and many of them receive government subsidies...i don't know if that qualifies as "dumping"...but it happens, daily.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Why yes we do.
We don't do it smart because multinationals like low cost Chinese labor to manufacture products that Chinese people can't afford but who like low priced subsidized soybeans from the US.
Why did you ask?
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Over the last 50 years the US car companies have repeatedly tried to take on Honda and Toyota (the names for good cars that are comparatively cheap to buy and operate) and not done so well.
Problem is, Americans like to buy real pigs.
real world mpg 12
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Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Taxation is a powerful tool to implement public policy. For example, eliminating tax breaks for private schools would go a long way to end the Republican war on public education.
The Hidden Provision Driving Tax Breaks for Private School Tuition
A federal tax provision allowing families to devote money tax free to private school tuition
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