Why everyone should have Diatomaceous Earth on hand

kratos015

Well-Known Member
I've seen a handful of threads concerning Diatomaceous Earth and even a few replies in pest control topics that bring it up, but I never really see it discussed much on the organics section here. The main reason that I post this is because of the problem a lot of newcomers to organics experience, fungus gnats/aphids. I read a very eye opening thread on another forum about gnats/aphids that completely explains why organics were giving me bad yields. I'll detail this information below in further detail.

My goal for posting this is to ensure that newcomers to organics know about this 100% organic pest control that will ensure they have an awesome and pain-free organic experience the first time around! Not to say that I'm not a newcomer because I most definitely am! I've just made plenty of mistakes and would like to help others avoid the simple ones I've made in the past if at all possible.

Forgive me if something like this has already been posted, I just thought I'd give a try at giving back to the RIU community since the RIU community has got me to the point I'm at now! :) Anyway, this is pretty much just gonna be about what Diatomaceous Earth is, how it works, and how we can use it. The next few paragraphs contain a bit of info about DE. I'm not posting all of these to seem like a knowitall, but I find that with organics it is vital to know exactly what you're dealing with. Due to the time invested in making the soil and growing the plants out, it is imperative that you don't add anything to your grow unless you know everything about whatever it is you're adding. Again, don't add a single thing to your organic grow at all until you fully understand everything about what you're adding. Forgive me for sounding condescending by saying that, but I don't want people to be as mindless as I was and think "organics, can't burn lol. 1 cup guano per 5 gallons water lolol" Needless to say, I was horrified after I actually did research on guanos and have since found alternatives to them. So if you don't really care how it works/already know then just skip on ahead to the part on how to apply it properly on the next post. Anyway :P

Diatomaceous Earth (or DE for short) is the absolute perfect pest control for an organic set up, if combined with beneficial nematodes you shouldn't ever see pests, ever. The reason as to why DE is so amazing (especially for organics) is actually due to what it's made of and how it works.
Wikipedia defines DE as "a naturally occurring, soft, siliceous sedimentary rock that is easily crumbled into a fine white to off-white powder. So how exactly does DE work? Wiki puts it pretty concisely;

"due to its abrasive and physico-sorptive properties DE can be used as an insecticide. The fine powder absorbs lipids from the waxy outer layers of insects' exoskeletons, causing them to dehydrate. Anthropods die as a result of the water pressure deficiency. This also works against gastropods."

and

"DE is commonly used in lieu of boric acid, and can be used to help control and possibly eliminate bed bug, house dust mite, cockroach, ant, and flea infestations. Medical-grade DE is sometimes used to de-worm both animals and humans"

To explain it in a more awesome fashion, SpicySativa (who posts a ton of awesome information in here btw) replied to a topic about fungus gnats with the following;

"DE is affective against hard-bodied pests with exoskeletons. Gnat larvae are soft-bodied. Also, as mentioned, the DE needs to be dry and powdery so that it will coat the pests in dry DE dust when they walk over it. The dust actually scrapes and slices up the outer layer of the insects' exoskeletons, causing it to loose too much moisture, dehydrate, and die."

Notice the key word in the last few quotes, exoskeleton. DE will not work on anything that doesn't have an exoskeleton, however beneficial nematodes will take care of whatever DE doesn't. Oh yeah, and DE doesn't harm nematodes. Neat huh? :)

I've been having a big problem with fungus gnats or aphids in my soil, it tends to come with the territory ;) I don't know which one I have and quite frankly it doesn't matter to me because I don't want either! With DE aphids and gnats are nothing to worry about in the slightest. Now, some of you might be like I was a few months ago and think "they're just little tiny annoying bugs. I'll just let them do their thing and the plants will be fine." NO!! I've recently come across a wealth of information that proved just how wrong (and fucking stupid) I was! And, because everything I did for my current garden was when I had that state of mind, guess who's soil is infected? :) These bugs in particular are bad for various reasons to us organic growers.

1) The larvae need to eat something right? Well they eat a lot and it isn't the dirt they're eating, it's all the nutrients that you cooked for a month or more. And after that, it'll be your roots. All of the larvae devour your organic nutrients at a faster rate than the microbes in the soil can. Not only does this take food away from your beneficial microbes, but these asshole larvae will grow into flies that will lay a grip of eggs. One female can lay 200 eggs weekly according to Grizzly's Guide to Pulverizing Pests on here. Even with just 5 gnats they can lay up to 1000 eggs a week, when they hatch that'll turn into up to 200,000 (that would assume all 1000 are females, but you get what I mean :P). And that all started with 5 female gnats.

2) There's another negative side effect to the larvae eating your organic nutrients and that's the fact that these fuckers eat your roots! Grizzly puts it best when he says "These creatures infest root systems, damaging larger roots and consuming root hairs. This causes your plant to weaken, slow its growth, and fading in the foliage. These wounds to the roots make marijuana insanely vulnerable to several types of fungus. Maggots love dying plant matter and will only infest more heavily the more damaged your plant becomes." This takes us into reason #3

3) They cause diseases, which make your beneficial microbes suffer even more as well as your plants/roots. To add insult to injury, the larvae as well as harmful microbes love the environment these larvae are creating and will help to cause even more problems.

4) Symptoms of gnat/aphid infestation will resemble various symptoms of deficiencies. If there are leaves yellowing on you for no reason, you likely have aphids. Gnat infestation has similar symptoms to cal/mag deficiencies. This sucks because people like me see these "deficiencies" and start brewing the necessary teas or we break out the cal/mag. So not only are our poor plants suffering from the three things listed above, now we're accidentally over-fertilizing too!

As you can see, these bugs just got a lot more scary! This might explain why some people have been having the problems I've been having. You follow subcool's recipe EXACTLY, but you still get crap yields. That's because what you're seeing isn't a nutrient deficiency, your organic medium is infested with gnats and your roots have taken significant damage! This is why I'm posting a book right now, because when I stumbled upon all of this information everything all made sense. I WAS doing everything right, I just didn't know that I had a gnat problem! So how do we apply DE to take care of these freeloaders?
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
How to apply DE

Before I get into this, I just want to quote SpicySativa again with "Also, as mentioned, the DE needs to be dry and powdery so that it will coat the pests in dry DE dust when they walk over it." Make sure you remember this, if it's all wet it'll clump up and become useless.

Prevention: All you do is mix a bit of it into your supersoil when you make it. Then everytime you take it out of the storage container, sprinkle a little bit more in there. When you put the soil in the storage container, sprinkle some DE over the top of it. Gnats can't lay eggs in your soil if they can't land on it ;) Your goal here it to make sure you have enough DE applied strategically to make sure that any gnats that come into contact with your soil get fucked up. Combine this with nematodes and you shouldn't have any bugs in your soil.

Treatment: If you're like me now and are middle of a grow you can still use DE. It'll take a bit of time (and a lot of work) to destroy the population but it can be done if you work hard enough at it. You're gonna have to constantly top dress your soil with DE. You don't need to use a ton of it, a nice thin layer will do. Just make sure the entire top of it is covered! This will prevent any gnats already in your room from laying anymore eggs in your containers. If you constantly top dress with DE, you'll only have to worry about the eggs/larvae that are currently in your medium. This is still a problem and damage will be done, but with only larvae/eggs and no more adults to worry about there's a light at the end of the tunnel!

All you have to do is treat the larvae/egg problem which can be done with a variety of methods. Nematodes seem to be the best organic way to deal with the larvae/eggs (since they have no exoskeletons yet) and if you can get your hands on those I highly recommend doing so because this is the fastest most effective way to treat the eggs/larvae. The next most effective thing to do is a soil drench with neem-oil as that will also hurt the larvae and I believe the eggs? The problem I have with a soil drench is that it can be counter-productive. Gnats love a nice moist and overwatered environment, and if the neem oil doesn't work on all of them for some reason you've just given the survivors a perfect place to live. You can treat the eggs/larvae with DE, but only after they've become gnats. This can be a problem because you have to wait for them to damage your roots until they're grown up enough to die, however it's much more effective than doing nothing.



If you follow these steps, you should be able to destroy the gnats entire population. My apologies for such a lengthy reply, but I just wanted to let everyone know about this amazing ingredient that goes a LONG way in preventing a large problem later on. If you use DE properly and consistently while you're making the soil (or even when you buy soil from the store cause you never know!) then you'll always have pest free soil. If you're having "nutrient or cal/mag" problems, you might have a problem with infested soil so look into it! A little DE goes a long way and it doesn't cost very much money at all. Furthermore, it has a ton of other uses aside from your garden. Your dogs/cats have fleas? Sprinkle a little bit on the areas their scratching and problem solved! And don't worry about them eating it, it'll just be a good prevention for worms! Make sure that you use consumption safe DE when doing this though! DE can also get rid of ants or any other kind of pest that has an exoskeleton. I hope I was able to help some people out with this post :)
 

vostok

Well-Known Member
As posted previously in this forum, D-Earth is not for the weak hearted, it is dangerous stuff, see diatomaceous earth, see it as millions of tiny razorblades ripping into your lungs with each inhale, and wonder why you cough up blood in years to come, diatomaceous earth, is popular with lazy, dirty, commercial tomato growers, those that can't or don't get the ripe conditions for their plants ...stick to Neem Oil to control bugs and molds, its organic and safe too, but not so close to harvest as Neem can be an acquired taste
 

DonPetro

Well-Known Member
20140325_113810.jpg With my neem meal order i got a free bag of DE in rock form. Says to use a breathing aparatus when handling, so yes, be careful when using. Not sure if i will ever use it but at least it was free.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
I don't like de in or on the soil. When you water, the de clumps up and stops working. A nice layer of compost and / or worm castings will rid the plant of soil pests. Will not suffocate the plant like de does. Worm castings also have chitin which is a bacteria that's a pest inhibitor. Stingin nettle in tea's, foliars, and soil will rid plant of pests. Neem meal in soil (cooked soil) which has azadiractin which kills pests too. Keep a nice population of ladybugs going too. Imo DE causes more problems than fixes
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Thanks for all of the responses, it's nice to see that if someone is wrong about something there are more wise members on here to correct people like me so that others don't make mistakes. Not only that but I'm learning quite a bit as well.

So you're saying that if I simply top dress my plants with EWC instead of DE then I'll achieve the same results as DE? If that's true then I wasted a long ass time typing this out for nothing because why the hell would anyone use DE instead of EWC? :P As for Neem meal, I've seen people bring it up all the time but can't seem to find it anywhere (although I only really use Amazon and my Hydro Store). I'd love to get a mix of feather meal/Neem meal to replace the blood meal in my supersoil, but I just can't find either of those ingredients anywhere!

hyroot, could I ask you to elaborate a bit more on the Stinging nettle? A google search only revealed pill supplements similar to fish oil, is that what you were talking about? If so, how exactly does it work? And how do I apply it? If you have a better solution than DE I would really love to hear it because these gnats cause me problems without the DE. I'm always looking for ways to improve my set up so I would greatly appreciate a response. Either way, thanks for taking the time to reply to my thread.

Oh, I didn't add in the part about not inhaling DE because I kind of thought that would be obvious, everyone knows not to do it for guano or anything else for that matter so why do it with DE? I always have something covering my mouth when I apply it, I also move/turn off my fans to prevent it from blowing around the room. Just kind of seems like common sense that you don't wanna inhale a bunch of dust particles you know? :P

Also, if there are other things I'm wrong about please let me know. In fact, if this thread doesn't have any use at all it might be a good idea to delete it? I honestly only had good intentions when it came to posting this, but if this thread is going to hurt people more than help people I don't want it up anymore!
 

vostok

Well-Known Member
kratos015 it is a good post, leave it, as it is a very controversial subject, I first ran accross D-Earth back years ago, when a dealer tried to sell me an 0z, only to see he? had cut it with D-Earth...no joke, he now drives a cab in Detroit ..lol!
Look to organic teas as an easy way towards Organics
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
kratos015 it is a good post, leave it, as it is a very controversial subject, I first ran accross D-Earth back years ago, when a dealer tried to sell me an 0z, only to see he? had cut it with D-Earth...no joke, he now drives a cab in Detroit ..lol!
Look to organic teas as an easy way towards Organics
How the hell do you even cut an ounce with DE unless its cocaine? I mean wow! :P

I know a fair amount about organics. I use subcool's supersoil recipe to a T, I've just been having problems with gnats as they've been destroying all my attempts at organics. What I get from it is amazing in terms of quality, but pulling 1/2lb per 1k light is pathetic. My reason behind posting this thread was that I thought DE solved my pest problems but it seems there are better solutions? I'm still waiting to hear about the pest control value of EWC because if I can just top dress with EWC to get rid of the gnats I'd much rather spend the money on that instead! But, like I was saying in the OP, I want to know exactly what I'm doing before I change something. I'm still an amateur and want to make sure I know what I'm doing before I'm doing it, just common sense ya know? :P
 

Silky Shagsalot

Well-Known Member
op, all info. is good, as long as it's true. i'd never use de. even your own post states it has to be dry. well, first watering and there you go... the first time i remember hearing about it, was at my brothers house. he used it in his pool filter. this was years ago, before i grew weed. i seem to remember it had to be wet/damp, but can't remember why. must have been the danger part, lol. i'm sure you could just use a mask and hood to ensure you didn't ingest any. those masks are pretty good. from what i read in your post, it sounded like you could have this huge infestation that is effecting roots/growth, and somehow not be aware of it. unless someone else is caring for your grow, how could you not notice fungus gnats, lol? even if you only have a handful, you'll know, or should know. hate em!!! anyways, i found your post interesting, good info...
 

jointed

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the link Hyroot, even though I don't grow organically the info contained in that link could be useful one of these fine day's.
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
Kratos, thanks for the post. This is a topic that causes every organic grower some frustration.

I would recommend the following:

Prior to your next watering, sprinkle a generous amount of BTI bits (Home Depot) and cover that with a layer of compost/mulch then water as usual. This is biological warfare you are waging, as the microbes in this product will be ingested by the gnat larvae which will kill them. Immediately after you water bust out the vaccum and suck up as many adults as you can. Then lay down some yellow sticky traps which will catch/kill most of the remaining adults. I add neem seed meal from here http://www.neemresource.com/ (this is supposed to be the best quality stuff out there), along with crab shell meal, and innoculate my soil with the BTI bits. Depending on the time of year I will notice the odd gnat, but they are kept in check very well with the above regiment. Good luck
 

GandalfdaGreen

Well-Known Member
Kratos, thanks for the post. This is a topic that causes every organic grower some frustration.

I would recommend the following:

Prior to your next watering, sprinkle a generous amount of BTI bits (Home Depot) and cover that with a layer of compost/mulch then water as usual. This is biological warfare you are waging, as the microbes in this product will be ingested by the gnat larvae which will kill them. Immediately after you water bust out the vaccum and suck up as many adults as you can. Then lay down some yellow sticky traps which will catch/kill most of the remaining adults. I add neem seed meal from here http://www.neemresource.com/ (this is supposed to be the best quality stuff out there), along with crab shell meal, and innoculate my soil with the BTI bits. Depending on the time of year I will notice the odd gnat, but they are kept in check very well with the above regiment. Good luck
st0w rules. Listen to this man. I do.
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
about a 2 cm layers worth of horticultural sand on the top of the growing medium works well also, kinda the same idea as the DE only safer, not as well, but it's not airborne, and it also helps with drainage, keeping the perlite/lava rock where it's supposed to, keeps them from "floating". Most importantly though, it seems to keep bugs off my plants. This unfortunetly, is a preventative measure though, if you have problems, you'll need nematodes or other corrective measures.
Off topic-- I do find it kinda interesting that many, many, people use DE for killing bedbugs, and they sleep next to the powders.....Kinda wonder what that's doing to their lungs
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
I really don't think that food grade DE is harmful to inhale. We all know that it has to be *dry* in order for it to be effective, and once inhaled through your nose/mouth it's bound to come in contact with mucus membranes or what ever ...... so what's the risk?
 
I really don't think that food grade DE is harmful to inhale. We all know that it has to be *dry* in order for it to be effective, and once inhaled through your nose/mouth it's bound to come in contact with mucus membranes or what ever ...... so what's the risk?
Yes you them him I use it and my plants love it and the silica it provides keep o up bro it's al, good
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
I really don't think that food grade DE is harmful to inhale. We all know that it has to be *dry* in order for it to be effective, and once inhaled through your nose/mouth it's bound to come in contact with mucus membranes or what ever ...... so what's the risk?
Probably not, unless someone is selling crystalline DE as food grade. Crystalline DE is the stuff they use for filtration and it can accumulate deep in your lungs and has been linked to cancer in mice. Amorphous DE on the other hand is the natural unheated form and if you look at it under a microscope you'll still see the structure of the fossilized diatoms. It's recommended that you still take precautions against inhalation of the dust because it can temporarily irritate nasal and lung passageways.
 

JustBlazin

Well-Known Member
How the hell do you even cut an ounce with DE unless its cocaine? I mean wow! :P

I know a fair amount about organics. I use subcool's supersoil recipe to a T, I've just been having problems with gnats as they've been destroying all my attempts at organics. What I get from it is amazing in terms of quality, but pulling 1/2lb per 1k light is pathetic. My reason behind posting this thread was that I thought DE solved my pest problems but it seems there are better solutions? I'm still waiting to hear about the pest control value of EWC because if I can just top dress with EWC to get rid of the gnats I'd much rather spend the money on that instead! But, like I was saying in the OP, I want to know exactly what I'm doing before I change something. I'm still an amateur and want to make sure I know what I'm doing before I'm doing it, just common sense ya know? :P
Kratos try a 2 inch minimum Top dress of ewc, pro mix(unamended) or sand and the gnats can't get in deep enough to lay there eggs. They can come back once you start putting top dresses on your 2 + inch layer.
Not sure where your from but I know of 2 places in Canada for need meal- super expensive but available
I'm sure build a soil sells it in usa it's just shipping is a bitch.
I shipped mine from one side of Canada to the other pretty much and shipping it was very expensive but I've had my bag for over a year and it's still half full
 
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