Why God?... Why?

morgentaler said:

Oh, and that's not Big Bang, this is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

You're thinking of the zero sum model, which is based on negative and positive states in equilibrium. This is not part of Big Bang theory.

And the "no reason" part is just silly.
Science doesn't look for "reason". It looks for cause. And there must be a cause for expansionism.

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Well, I guess I am being a little lavish with the hyperbole. But, the general attitude of popular science is that the universe is 'trendlessly fluctuating'. I think that's not too far of a leap in reasoning - to say that the universe sprang from nothing in a single instant, for no reason. Well, I heard it sprang from nothing on the discovery channel & shit. & if from yonder point in the matrix of space/time, that the universe did THEN begin to 'trendlessly fluctuate', then... I may have been on to something.

Good point, though. +reps

morgentaler said:

Why should an atheist fear death?
I was dead 14.5 billion years before I was born, and it wasn't bad at all.

Unless it was so horrible that I blocked it all out...

Save me, Jesus!

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Countless times now I've seen atheists claim that only believers "fear" death. How ridiculous is that?
Since when is it normal to look forward to death?
When they don't "fear" death, they are looking forward to it so they can be with Jesus....the logic always astounds me.
Which is it?

Babs34 said:

Whether or not God exists Morgan?
Or WHY God allows things of this nature to happen?

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I don't believe "God" has a sense of moral values as we do. I don't believe it recognizes good/bad. I think the prime concern of the transcendental object is information; new things, new data, new species, new anomalies, ad nauseum. Death is a side effect of life. Life is in contravention to Maxwell's 2nd law of thermodynamics. Life is sustained far from equalibrium, it's an unstable system - & a miraculous one at that. It's bound to have some downsides. God doesn't sign the warrant on every death.

Although, I could just be a one man cult.

when its time for Gods calling you must go. he took my mother at the young age of 59 in her sleep. i hated him for the longest time, why the fuck would he let this happen? no one knows, only him. its been 2 years now and im now coming to terms with things, somewhat. but i am sry to hear bout ur friends sister.. my sympathy to u n the family

Babs34 said:

Countless times now I've seen atheists claim that only believers "fear" death. How ridiculous is that?
Since when is it normal to look forward to death?
When they don't "fear" death, they are looking forward to it so they can be with Jesus....the logic always astounds me.
Which is it?

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You need to choose ur words more carefully else you won't be taken as seriously.

Think it through and see if you can clean up ur post.

I won't say it's name is God or whatever... and I really don't think the Bible is trustworthy. I'm agnostic because I believe that, something cannot come from nothing, as some believe (big bang). This vast, vast universe... practically incomprehensible in size... to me, was made by some THING, long long ago... whether or not that thing is still alive is never to be known to mortal humans, perhaps only to those that've "passed on".

Only my point of view... in the long run, I don't think it should truly matter if you believe in a certain god or what have you... live your life, keep good karma, forgive others... and all should be okay.


As for your friends sister... if you wanna put it in a God context, it was free will... whatever caused the wreck was a person's free will to drive how they were driving... God cannot stop free will or so "it" says. Just like God can't stop the drunk driver from plowing down the interstate... it is that driver's free will, unfortunately his free will might just cost someone their own life, including his.

morgentaler said:

And there must be a cause for expansionism.

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have Science ever mentioned anything about Space being A Void, Vacuum...

Maybe whatever was in existence before our Physical Universe was observed was in another Dimension that crossed a plane which we now observe as Our Space... An infinite Void, A VAcuum.. Matter is NOt Expanding, It is REceeding from surrounding MATTER, Space is Expanding but not in the terms You are Thinking.. WE may actually be seeing farther INto Space than What the Actually size of The Physical Universe May Be, VIA Light.... HOwever Light is Being Sucked Back AS WEll...

I would suggest that the people who keep saying the Universe is Expanding and Red Shifting and What not, understand the theory that is being put forward.., If you are going dedicate your life to living by it, Understand Your Science, Please...

and on that note, I'll have to go back and look it over myself...

The second law of thermodynamics refers to a closed system.

Earth is not a closed system. It is influenced by the sun and other outside factors.

DogFacedDemon said:

I don't believe "God" has a sense of moral values as we do. I don't believe it recognizes good/bad. I think the prime concern of the transcendental object is information; new things, new data, new species, new anomalies, ad nauseum. Death is a side effect of life. Life is in contravention to Maxwell's 2nd law of thermodynamics. Life is sustained far from equalibrium, it's an unstable system - & a miraculous one at that. It's bound to have some downsides. God doesn't sign the warrant on every death.

Although, I could just be a one man cult.

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Have you checked out "A Briefer History of Time" by Hawking?

There's an audiobook for it, so you can listen while we all argue on here

Brazko said:

have Science ever mentioned anything about Space being A Void, Vacuum...

Maybe whatever was in existence before our Physical Universe was observed was in another Dimension that crossed a plane which we now observe as Our Space... A Voidless VAcuum.. Matter is NOt Expanding, It is REceeding from surrounding MATTER, Space is Expanding but not in the terms You are Thinking.. WE may actually be seeing farther INto Space than What the Actually size of The Physical Universe May Be, VIA Light.... HOwever Light is Being Sucked Back AS WEll...

I would suggest that the people who keep saying the Universe is Expanding and Red Shifting and What not, understand the theory that is being put forward.., If you are going dedicate your life to living by it, Understand Your Science, Please...

and on that note, I'll have to go back a look it over myself...

Click to expand...

morgentaler said:

Have you checked out "A Briefer History of Time" by Hawking?

There's an audiobook for it, so you can listen while we all argue on here

Click to expand...

No, I rather REad it, but you can tell me now what he says about an Expanding Universe.., Is he the one along with his Peers that put forth that Theory, or did someone else and "A Briefer History of Time" is his interpretation of an Expanding Universe? Because if it is His Book contradicts the Theory he put Forth..

But explain Expansionism Please? Why are you talking about Argueing? I take back the comment that may have seem to belittle anyone's intelligence, I'm Sorry...

So, if it's alright, we don't have to argue, Just explain Expansionism..

DogFacedDemon said:

Well, I guess I am being a little lavish with the hyperbole. But, the general attitude of popular science is that the universe is 'trendlessly fluctuating'. I think that's not too far of a leap in reasoning - to say that the universe sprang from nothing in a single instant, for no reason. Well, I heard it sprang from nothing on the discovery channel & shit. & if from yonder point in the matrix of space/time, that the universe did THEN begin to 'trendlessly fluctuate', then... I may have been on to something.

Good point, though. +reps

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I think Degrasse-Tyson gives some of the best explanations about space and the universe. When the writers are actually scientists and not just film makers they do a better job of presenting the complex stuff, than someone summarizing work that's completely new to them.

The zero-sum model seems like a good explanation of how something can come from nothing, but mostly because "our nothing" and the universe's nothing are two different things.

If two different states create a single state of nothingness, then when they diverge again, something is there... with a positive state and a negative state.

What separates them... well... maybe someone will figure that out.

It's a fairly recent concept to me, and I have no idea if its a "better" concept than the big bang, but most scientists in that field still seem to feel expansionist "big bang" theory is the ticket. Where the singularity at the heart of it all came from is the next thing to look for. It would be amazing if at some point (not likely in our lifetimes) they're able to observe the birth of another universe. They've seen the birth of galaxies, so maybe the tech will exist some day to observe other universes, if they exist.

Brane collisions are another alternative for universe creation, and that's quantum stuff that's just a mind bending to read. I need to find a good documentary on that and get a basis to start from before trying to read deeper into it.

Was it Sagan that said "Man is just the universe trying to understand itself"?

I'll Say it again, the Expanding Universe, is not Expanding in the Term of thought you Are using...

Please study up some more on the Concept of an Expanding Universe, Or just Explain it to me now,, I may be confused..

Brazko said:

have Science ever mentioned anything about Space being A Void, Vacuum...

Click to expand...

Yes, though interplanetary space's vacuum does have a minute amount of matter in it. The farther out toward the "rim" of the universe you go, the less matter there is.

Maybe whatever was in existence before our Physical Universe was observed was in another Dimension that crossed a plane which we now observe as Our Space

Click to expand...

... An infinite Void, A VAcuum.. Matter is NOt Expanding, It is REceeding from surrounding MATTER, Space is Expanding but not in the terms You are Thinking.. WE may actually be seeing farther INto Space than What the Actually size of The Physical Universe May Be, VIA Light....

The limits of what we can see is roughly 1/3 of the actual distance those objects are from us now. They've kept moving outward while it took time for the light to reach us.

So what we see at 13 billion light years distance is now 45.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_Universe

HOwever Light is Being Sucked Back AS WEll...

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An object with a gravity well big enough to suck light back toward us would have already destroyed us.
If light is moving away from us, we won't see it. It can either be moving towards us at a speed that is slightly faster (relatively speaking), because we are moving toward it, or slightly slower, because we are moving away from it.

I would suggest that the people who keep saying the Universe is Expanding and Red Shifting and What not, understand the theory that is being put forward.., If you are going dedicate your life to living by it, Understand Your Science, Please...

and on that note, I'll have to go back and look it over myself...

Click to expand...

I've not heard of a single professional astronomer nor astrophysicist who doubts the universe is currently expanding.

The big point of contention is whether it keeps on going, or eventually snaps back.

No, you do not understand what you are talking about, and I'm not trying to belittle you, but you don't... 75% of the Universe is Presumed to be Dark Energy (not Matter), 23% is presumed Dark Matter, 2% is our Observed Physical Matter that is being consumed by the Dark Matter.. There is no matter on no Outer Rim,

here is a link for you.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space

and if I'm wrong, just please help me understand it better, by explaining it to me...

This time, I really have to go, and I'll get back witcha

Brazko said:

No, you do not understand what you are talking about, and I'm not trying to belittle you, but you don't... 75% of the Universe is Presumed to be Dark Energy (not Matter), 23% is presumed Dark Matter, 2% is our Observed Physical Matter that is being consumed by the Dark Matter.. There is no matter on no Outer Rim,

here is a link for you.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space

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There's a reason I put "rim" in quotes.
Because humans like to put tangible limits on things.

So what exactly do I not know what I'm talking about.

I haven't opined that light is being sucked back toward us...

Brazko said:

and if I'm wrong, just please help me understand it better, by explaining it to me...

This time, I really have to go, and I'll get back witcha

Click to expand...

Explain what to you?
You made a bunch of points. I countered some of them. What in specifics are you interested in?

morgentaler said:

Explain what to you?
You made a bunch of points. I countered some of them. What in specifics are you interested in?

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You haven't countered nothing, because the points you made are not valid, you are basing your counter on information you don't understand, regardless the accuracy of the information, because it does not state what you are saying..

YOu figure out what happens to light, by you logic it just dissappears and waits for the next Bus to show itself, Universe that is, Light does not just exist, and emit itself, It is emitted from Matter and will Reside where matter will end Up.... , Now I'm belittling you because you don't know what you are talking about, but only because you refuse to look over the information again, and clearly comprehend what is being said.. It's Right There... if I'm wrong Explain how so, I may be confused, but now I'm highly starting to doubt it...

You just continue with your Illogical Beef as Well.... that Makes everything more Logically Understood,

You spouted this:

have Science ever mentioned anything about Space being A Void, Vacuum...

Maybe whatever was in existence before our Physical Universe was observed was in another Dimension that crossed a plane which we now observe as Our Space... A Voidless VAcuum.. Matter is NOt Expanding, It is REceeding from surrounding MATTER, Space is Expanding but not in the terms You are Thinking.. WE may actually be seeing farther INto Space than What the Actually size of The Physical Universe May Be, VIA Light.... HOwever Light is Being Sucked Back AS WEll...

I would suggest that the people who keep saying the Universe is Expanding and Red Shifting and What not, understand the theory that is being put forward.., If you are going dedicate your life to living by it, Understand Your Science, Please...

and on that note, I'll have to go back a look it over myself...

Click to expand...

You addressed the visible and physical size of space, incorrectly.

You talked about light being "sucked back".
A photon travels in one direction until the path is altered by gravity or reflection.
To "suck" light back from the distances you are talking about you would need an object behind us, relative to the object the light is being "sucked back" from, to exert gravitational force sufficient to pull light into it.
Of course we'd be in that gravity well, and would have been destroyed long before the "sucked" light made it back here.

You're blowing out unscientific, incomplete thoughts, and then dodge the answers to just throw out other items without their relevance to your train of thought.

Now I know you actually don't give a shit about it. It's a common creationist tactic to win an argument. Keep spitting out fallacies about sciences concepts of nature until someone says "Well, science doesn't know that yet". Then it's happy-dancing time, and "I proved God exists!", while the rational people look at each other and wonder who put the Jesus-juice in your drinking water.

So if you want to show good intent, and not prove to be one of those hacks, please provide one single peer-reviewed and published paper from a scientific journal proving the existence of God. Just one.

It can't be that hard to find, right?

PubMed's got over 250,000 on evolution alone.

Bonus points if you can tell me what escapes from Black Holes.

i stole this from another thread...
somehow i find it appropriate

ps for morgentaler-
xrays