brownbearclan
Active Member
I think the wikileaks guy rules, I don't give a shit whose dirty laundry gets aired because the truth is the truth, and the truth is what sets us free. =)
Discipline is the instant and willing obedience to orders, respect for authority and self reliance. Marine Corps creed of my time.
I think you're being kind. More than half would likely obey an unlawful order although nothing is ever so simple. It would depend what the order was I suppose. Something just a little over the line and you get most if not all following the order. Something really terrible might evoke more resistance. Remember there are always those among us whose nature it is to be cruel. When cruelty becomes encouraged by a given state, nazi germany always comes to mind, there will be a huge number who find the cruelty justifiable. There will be those who will do it but disagree with it. There will be those who will abhor it and will abscond. Unfortunately these folks usually aren't treated well if/when captured.ROFL! I guess I get why they'd need that, but what kind of message does it send when they say "fuck Nuremburg"?
Seriously, imagine you're a soldier in a warzone, an order comes in to do something you consider questionable, do you go through with it? I think half would and half wouldn't, and they play on that knowing the majority are the ones who come out alive after having done it.
I remember my friend asking me in high school when I wanted to join the Air Force if I had to drop a bomb on a location that I knew would cause collateral damage and kill civilians but eliminate the target the commanders designated, would I do it? ... I said I would because it would be for the greater good. Looking back now, I see pretty clearly how messed up that position is... and more importantly, why.
Yeah. Its not a soldiers job to debate politics.
Umm, firstly, wikileaks have released documents from loads of countries and organizations, and have won awards for their work in the past due to this. They haven't targeted the US exclusively, and targeting is the wrong word to use anyway. They simply publish documents that are leaked to them, regardless of the country involved. In this case the documents were leaked to them by a US serviceman who could see the corruption from within, and acted on his conscience.Well concidering Julian Assange isn't even American, makes me wonder how sincere his intentions really are, concidering his organization seems to always be targeting the USA and no other country.
So you can't see anything damning in the leaks, but you accept that they could damage ties with allies? How is this possible? As for the reason behind the leaks, here's a section from wikipedia that sums it up:socaliboy said:I don't have any problem with someone trying to promote honesty, but where is the threshold. The latest cables leak (with more to come) could threaten/damage ties with overseas allies. Sensitive information is usually exactly that, sensitive for a reason, concidering I can't seem to find anything really damning against the Good' ol USA in these leaks, I fail to see the reason behind the leaks in the first place. Seems as though it is putting inocent lives at risk for an askewed reason, maybe shit stirring?
For me, both Manning and Assangs's motives are crystal clear. That is because I have done my own research, rather than simply echoing the views of certain media outlets. Their response in this is just as telling as the USG response, and shows just how bad things have become.Manning reportedly said that the diplomatic documents expose "almost criminal political back dealings"; that they explain "how the first world exploits the third, in detail";[17][11] and that he hoped the release of the videos and documents would lead to "worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms."
Yeah well the Founding Fathers established this Country, and wrote the Constitution...in defiance of authority.Discipline is the instant and willing obedience to orders, respect for authority and self reliance. Marine Corps creed of my time.
no wonder wikileaks is being labeled as 'cyber-terrorists'.....Wikileaks recently released a cable from Afghanistan revealing U.S. government contractor DynCorp threw a party for Afghan security recruits featuring trafficked boys as the entertainment. Bacha bazi is the Afghan tradition of boy play where young boys are dressed up in womens clothing, forced to dance for leering men, and then sold for sex to the highest bidder. Apparently this is the sort of entertainment funded by your tax dollars when DynCorp is in charge of security in Afghanistan.
You seem to hold and admit two different positions. You admit that being a bully is wrong, yet you imply protecting the lives of "American" bulllies is somehow noble?The debate here is a little different than right and wrong. As an american (which I am) you have to realize that we are often lied to by our own government in order to sustain the cushy lifestyles that we do. Anyone who has done some traveling can attest to the fact that the worst parts of america are 5 star hotels compared to some places in Africa, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe. So here is the real issue; lie to rest of the world to maintain our lifestyle? I say absolutely. Fuck Europe, if they dont like that we classify information, they can give back all of our aid money, and declassify all of their own info.
I spent some time in the military, and still have a ton of friends and family who are in. I would rather have the EU (and Canada i guess?) "still" mad at us then disclose supply and logistics info, troop locations, diplomatic conveyances. America is the big bully, thats part of being the boss. I am not saying it is right by any means, and as a Marine who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan I can say with some certainty that they are useless conflicts that just further our defense-industrial complex. However, an American life is worth more to me than anything, especially international posturing, and anyone who does anything to put that in jeopardy is an enemy. Im sure you guys will flame the hell out of this post, so I will leave you with this:
your little brother is in a tent in Afghanistan right now, hiding from a decent amount of people with machine guns who want to end his life every second of every day. 1/3rd of your tax dollars pay to keep him safe and away from them. Now someone completely removed the conflict has drawn the enemy a map straight to your little brother, and threatens to release it unless....? Is this man a hero or a demon
He's a hero. The demons are the ones who put your brother in that tent in the first place.your little brother is in a tent in Afghanistan right now, hiding from a decent amount of people with machine guns who want to end his life every second of every day. 1/3rd of your tax dollars pay to keep him safe and away from them. Now someone completely removed the conflict has drawn the enemy a map straight to your little brother, and threatens to release it unless....? Is this man a hero or a demon
Muslims and Christians have been killing eachother in the middle east for thousands of years. The fact the Christians are coming from America this millennium doesn't tilt the scales of justice. My initial point is that Assange and Wikileaks are counter productive to anyones cause but their own.He's a hero. The demons are the ones who put your brother in that tent in the first place.
As for the rest of your post where you advocate lying to the world to maintain your comfy lifestyle, the problem is that you aren't just lying, you are slaughtering people, in vast numbers. That kind of stuff tends to be noticed, and leads to things like people flying planes into buildings or picking up machine guns to kill little brothers in tents, amongst other things.
The debate here is a little different than right and wrong. As an american (which I am) you have to realize that we are often lied to by our own government in order to sustain the cushy lifestyles that we do. Anyone who has done some traveling can attest to the fact that the worst parts of america are 5 star hotels compared to some places in Africa, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe. So here is the real issue; lie to rest of the world to maintain our lifestyle? I say absolutely. Fuck Europe, if they dont like that we classify information, they can give back all of our aid money, and declassify all of their own info.
I spent some time in the military, and still have a ton of friends and family who are in. I would rather have the EU (and Canada i guess?) "still" mad at us then disclose supply and logistics info, troop locations, diplomatic conveyances. America is the big bully, thats part of being the boss. I am not saying it is right by any means, and as a Marine who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan I can say with some certainty that they are useless conflicts that just further our defense-industrial complex. However, an American life is worth more to me than anything, especially international posturing, and anyone who does anything to put that in jeopardy is an enemy. Im sure you guys will flame the hell out of this post, so I will leave you with this:
your little brother is in a tent in Afghanistan right now, hiding from a decent amount of people with machine guns who want to end his life every second of every day. 1/3rd of your tax dollars pay to keep him safe and away from them. Now someone completely removed the conflict has drawn the enemy a map straight to your little brother, and threatens to release it unless....? Is this man a hero or a demon
I appreciate your being polite, but the term "hero" is a bit watered down these days. Potential cannon fodder is always sold the heroIm glad you both gave actual responses. Thanks for not being assholes, I apologize for getting high and ranting. but...
Muslims and Christians have been killing eachother in the middle east for thousands of years. The fact the Christians are coming from America this millennium doesn't tilt the scales of justice. My initial point is that Assange and Wikileaks are counter productive to anyones cause but their own.
My brother and I are both heroes for serving in the military. Regardless of who you consider "innocent civilians" I never killed anyone, and to my knowledge neither has he. The military is the only option to some people who cant afford to go get an education in this country, the same as for the people we fight in the middle east. Just because I served doesn't make me George Bush. Wiki leaks is bad for the US, and bad for my family. Im sticking to my guns.