CALLING ALL Californians

[hyroot]

I'm from socal and everyone down here wants organics. the only benefit to hydro is the buds look pretty but with less trichome development. once you do living organics. you will never go back. most of the growers in the world that grow mmj. grow in super soil. There is a lot more organic growers than hydro down here. Theres even far far more organic growers than hydro on RIU

 

[Dan Kone]

I'm from socal and everyone down here wants organics.

Well that's not true. If it were more people would grow them. Right now it's very hard being a vendor. Vendors will grow whatever people want to buy. If people bought organics, more people would be growing them.

the only benefit to hydro is the buds look pretty but with less trichome development.

My mircoscope says that isn't true. Under a microscope hydro trichomes will have longer stems and bigger heads. Also generally there will be more of them if it's well grown.

I think you're confusing lighting methods with nutrients. The sun is more powerful than HPS. OUTDOOR buds will have bigger trichomes. But that isn't related to nutrients. That's the sun providing a better light spectrum. If you look at indoor organics Vs hydro under a scope it's pretty clear.

once you do living organics. you will never go back. most of the growers in the world that grow mmj. grow in super soil. There is a lot more organic growers than hydro down here.

I do grow biological organics. And I do use a modified version of supersoil. Outside. It's far superior when growing outdoor IMO. But if we are talking top shelf bud then we are talking about indoor. When it comes to indoor hydro kicks the crap out of organics. I don't think many people prefer outdoor to top shelf hydro.

 

[hyroot]

i also don't use the prehistoric hps lights. I use induction and led. those have better spectrum and higher par and higher cri than hps. they put out uv-a, uv-b and IR. thendeep red 660 leds and then 730 IR leds that turn on for 5 min to mimic sunset after the other lights turn off. to send plants into their phytochrome state faster. I see far more trichomes with organics.


everyone loves organics even with food. nobody wants chemically gown or gmo grown fruits and veggies. you talking to the choir here. most of whjat you said is far fetched and wrong. I grew hydro for 8 years then I saw the truth I've been doing organics for 6 years now. I will never go back to hydro. again there are far more organic growers on this forum than hydro.

 

[Dan Kone]

i also don't use the prehistoric hps lights. I use induction and led. those have better spectrum and higher par and higher cri than hps. they put out uv-a, uv-b and IR. thendeep red 660 leds and then 730 IR leds that turn on for 5 min to mimic sunset after the other lights turn off. to send plants into their phytochrome state faster. I see far more trichomes with organics.

99.999999% of all LEDs are massive scams. It was only until the second half of last year when a passable LED was developed.

But again, the process you describe has nothing to do with nutrients, but with light. (technically I guess you could describe light as a nutrient provider but that's not what were talking about here).

everyone loves organics even with food. nobody wants chemically gown or gmo grown fruits and veggies.

In theory, you are correct and the same holds true with cannabis. If you ask people if they prefer organics over evil chemicals they all say yes. If you ask people if they prefer organics over monsanto grown GMO's they all say yes. But when it comes to actually making a choice in the store they act different. It's mostly about how you frame the question.

If you ask people if they want evil GMO poison or beautiful natural organic corn they all say they want the natural option. But when they go into their grocery store 999/1000 prefer the GMO corn.

Anyone want a natural organic banana? If you ask them without this picture they will say yes, but no one is going to actually buy that in stores.

Same goes for hydro bud. If you ask people if they want bud pumped full of chemicals or good tasting natural organics they will all say yes. But when they walk into a dispensary to spend their money they really want fire hydro.

you talking to the choir here. most of whjat you said is far fetched and wrong.

Great. Just prove the unfounded claims you made and I'll stop.

When it comes down to it there is no evidence that well grown hydro is inferior in any way to organics. There is no evidence that hydro makes plants carry poisonous chemicals when grown in hydro that don't exist in organics. There is no evidence of negitive health effects on people with compromised immune systems. If I'm wrong just show me the proof. Simple as that.

I grew hydro for 8 years then I saw the truth I've been doing organics for 6 years now. I will never go back to hydro. again there are far more organic growers on this forum than hydro.

Yet nearly every big time professional grower south of Santa Rosa grows hydro and hydro makes up nearly every top shelf bud on the market. There is a reason for that.

 

[hyroot]

^^^^^ You don't know shit about led. Area 51, Hans led and apache tech and inda gro induction have been matching hid yield with better quality for the past few years. It only takes 600w of quality led to match a 1000w. There Are shady companies. The educated consumer knows better.. I'm running 1400 watts of induction / led. Covering more area than 2 1000w. With less heat than t5's. Pulling same size bids but denser. I have 1 155w area 51 led panel that will outperform a 400w hps. The induction has. 10 year warranty. The led has a lifetime warranty. Both companies Re in the u.s.

everything you say is your opinion. There plenty of factual university studies to show how bad chems. You are in denial. You are wrong about all hydro down south. I see 15 organic grown to every 1 hydro..

you didn't prove anything. You didn't pick anything apart. the California department of agriculture released studies last year about how bad synthetic and chemical potassium silicate is for consumed fruits, veggies, and medical cannabis.

there's were studies released by the Oregon department of agriculture too.

I can post pics of rotten fruit grown in hydro or organic. I can show beautiful ones grown organically. The u.s. Doesn't have the proper climate for bananas anyway. Except maybe Hawaii

anyway hydro is for people who don't know how to read a plant, diagnose any issues and grow..

 

[Mithrandir420]

So link the "factual university" studies. Just saying that "there are studies" doesn't prove anything. (It also doesn't really say anything either)

Also, I highly doubt you've seen even a sliver of the total amount of grows in So Cal.

 

[PJ Diaz]

Well in the middle of this hydro vs organic debate can someone please quote the part of CCHI 2014 which allegedly says you can only sell organic weed. I call bollocks on that allegation. I don't see anything in the bill about that. The closest thing I see in the bill is no GMO weed.

 

[Dan Kone]

^^^^^ You don't know shit about led.

Well you don't know shit about hydro or synthetic nutrients so I guess we are even.

I've seen a lot of wild claims about LEDs and their "new super mega enhanced spectrum that is 1000000000x more efficient than HPS!". Unfortunetely it's been mostly bullshit until recently. Now that I've seen the evidence I'm considering switching over.

Here's the problem. Reading shit about LED's on the internet isn't research because most of the claims are false. The only research you can do is see bud grown from them. Now that I've seen it I believe it, but I wasn't going to be gullible enough to go out and buy a new LED because of someone on the internet claiming they have a better spectrum and are more efficient. I know these claims pass for research in the world of internet psudoscience, but I prefer hard proof.

everything you say is your opinion. There plenty of factual university studies to show how bad chems. You are in denial.

Great. Then it should be easy for you to produce these studies.

You are wrong about all hydro down south. I see 15 organic grown to every 1 hydro...

Well if there is one thing I'm absolute sure I know it's the dispensary market. I have people who scout SoCal for me. What you're saying simply isn't true.

I can post pics of rotten fruit grown in hydro or organic. I can show beautiful ones grown organically. The u.s. Doesn't have the proper climate for bananas anyway. Except maybe Hawaii

Those weren't pictures of rotten fruit. Those were pictures of what fruit look like in the wild. Our domesticated versions don't exist in nature.

anyway hydro is for people who don't know how to read a plant, diagnose any issues and grow..

Actually hydro is for professionals who want to bring the people the bud they prefer.

 

[chazbolin]

Hiya Dan! As the debate continues to swirl over which is the best lighting system to use indoors we as gardeners find ourselves reluctant to move away from what we know works. We have crops to grow and dealing with 25% of rated lamp life change outs, high heat, high wattage, spectral shift, multiple lamps to get through a grow cycle has become an accepted cost of doing business. When presented with manufacturers claims of technical superiority it is justifiably going to be taken with a huge dose of skepticism. As it should. Why fix what ain't broken. Except HID is broken. There are more efficient ways to grow crops but it takes a complete understanding of how light affects our plants.

When considering which artificial lighting technology to install in your indoor garden, keep in mind that the light you choose affects every aspect of your system: water temperature, air temperature, evapotranspiration rates, RH, VPD, rate of CO2 uptake, DO levels, symbiotic bacterial densities, disease resistance, pest resistance, canopy biomass, root biomass, fruit and flower production, nutrient density, brix levels, the list is virtually endless. In sunlight conditions, where the plants receive broad spectrums throughout the entire growth cycle, successful plant development is achieved through the processes of natural equilibrium whereby all of these elements come together to benefit overall plant health. HID as a narrow spectrum devoted to either vegetative (Metal Halide UV-B) or flowering (HPS R-DR) takes what would be a broad spectrum in natural sunlight conditions and forces the plants to adjust to narrower spectrums for what is a myopic approach to what we have been conditioned to believe are spectrums that are more or less important to our plants health based on where the plant is in it's growth cycle. This is exactly what marketing has done for the last 40 years in that HID lamp manufacturers have conditioned growers to buy more lamps and do so more frequently to achieve 'optimum' results. Lunacy.

I respect the opinions of anyone who has been around RIU for damn near 7K posts. That being said I would suggest you take another look at the options that are available to HID and I believe you'll come away with a different appreciation to what can be done to enhance your gardening experience and it won't involve changing lamps twice a year.

Cheers.

 

[adower]

If you switch from hid to led will yields suffer at all?

 

[chazbolin]

Depends. LED is too generic a term. You can look at Greengenes' run with a high end AT660 LED panel and you would be less likely to see a loss compared to your HID runs than if you're talking about a cheap Chinese panel. If your looking to compete with a 1000 watt HPS in weight it's gonna take a high end panel with enough wattage to accomplish that over the same area.

https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/763210-greengenes-apache-at600-garden-blackberry-15.html

Another option would be an Inda-Gro induction with LED's as a supplement to the 660 and the 730nm at lights out. Total watts per light would be 460 watts.

https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/506257-inda-gro-induction-180.html

 

[Dan Kone]

If you switch from hid to led will yields suffer at all?

I've seen lots of evidence recently that with the new LED's out your yield is just as good. Google Lush LED (not the only brand people are having success with). Kushington Farms and swerve have don't some very successful runs. TGA is just starting a trial run. I've got a friend out here with a warehouse running them and he loves them. He got them based on seeing a warehouse out in Colorado. They are legit.

 

[Dan Kone]

Hiya Dan! As the debate continues to swirl over which is the best lighting system to use indoors we as gardeners find ourselves reluctant to move away from what we know works. We have crops to grow and dealing with 25% of rated lamp life change outs, high heat, high wattage, spectral shift, multiple lamps to get through a grow cycle has become an accepted cost of doing business. When presented with manufacturers claims of technical superiority it is justifiably going to be taken with a huge dose of skepticism. As it should. Why fix what ain't broken. Except HID is broken. There are more efficient ways to grow crops but it takes a complete understanding of how light affects our plants.

When considering which artificial lighting technology to install in your indoor garden, keep in mind that the light you choose affects every aspect of your system: water temperature, air temperature, evapotranspiration rates, RH, VPD, rate of CO2 uptake, DO levels, symbiotic bacterial densities, disease resistance, pest resistance, canopy biomass, root biomass, fruit and flower production, nutrient density, brix levels, the list is virtually endless. In sunlight conditions, where the plants receive broad spectrums throughout the entire growth cycle, successful plant development is achieved through the processes of natural equilibrium whereby all of these elements come together to benefit overall plant health. HID as a narrow spectrum devoted to either vegetative (Metal Halide UV-B) or flowering (HPS R-DR) takes what would be a broad spectrum in natural sunlight conditions and forces the plants to adjust to narrower spectrums for what is a myopic approach to what we have been conditioned to believe are spectrums that are more or less important to our plants health based on where the plant is in it's growth cycle. This is exactly what marketing has done for the last 40 years in that HID lamp manufacturers have conditioned growers to buy more lamps and do so more frequently to achieve 'optimum' results. Lunacy.

I respect the opinions of anyone who has been around RIU for damn near 7K posts. That being said I would suggest you take another look at the options that are available to HID and I believe you'll come away with a different appreciation to what can be done to enhance your gardening experience and it won't involve changing lamps twice a year.

Cheers.

Don't misunderstand. I am looking at converting to LED's. I'm just saying up until recently there were so many false claims out there that LED's weren't worth taking the gamble. I think they are now. Personally I think the light spectrum of HID is just fine. I want to do it for the lower temperatures, not having to switch out bulbs, and lower electricity bills.

 

[adower]

X2 on the heat and electricity bill.

 

[hyroot]

I've seen lots of evidence recently that with the new LED's out your yield is just as good. Google Lush LED (not the only brand people are having success with). Kushington Farms and swerve have don't some very successful runs. TGA is just starting a trial run. I've got a friend out here with a warehouse running them and he loves them. He got them based on seeing a warehouse out in Colorado. They are legit.

not trying to make another heated debate
I would not recommend lush at all. They are one of the cheap chinese lights Chaz was referring too.They lie about parts and performance, They claim to use custom crees. Call Cree They will tell you they don't make custom led's for anybody. Lush is probably going to be sued by Cree soon. Just like what happened with pro gro hydrohut. Lush Are rebranded e-shine panels that use low quality led's epistar, epiled. They don't last. E-shine has had quite a bit failure rates. They claim to have high par due to the uv side of things. Uv doesn't increase par at all. Its out side the 400nm-700nm range. They use way to much monochromatic blue led's to up their par. Gro blu also carry the same lights too.. Right now the best led's are Area 51 led, apache tech and hans led (bonsai hero) they all use top bin leds' cree, osram, nichia. Inda gro induction is great too. Thats what me and chaz an alot of others use too. The sad thing is people are going to be disappointed with lush and its going to give led a bad rep to a wider audience due to all the breeders getting free lights and documenting them like subcool and farmer john. also the pics lush uses was half hps. then they took them down for pics. They pulled an Irish boy.
check this thread about lush

https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/736418-lush-led-lighting-another-one.html


Chinese led's can produce great results at twice the wattage to cover the same area as high quality led's . Their problem is longeveity. They just don't last. They fail within a few months to a year. Due to low quality parts and companies in China not having any quality control.

 

[Dan Kone]

not trying to make another heated debate
I would not recommend lush at all. They are one of the cheap chinese lights Chaz was referring too.They lie about parts and performance, They claim to use custom crees.Call Cree They will tell you they don't make custom led's for anybody. Lush is probably going to be sued by Cree soon. Just like what happened with pro gro hydrohut. Lush Are rebranded e-shine panels that use low quality led's epistar, epiled. They don't last. E-shine has had quite a bit failure rates. They claim to have high par due to the uv side of things. Uv doesn't increase par at all. Its out side the 400nm-700nm range. Gro blu also carry the same lights too.. Right now the best led's are Area 51 led, apache tech and hans led (bonsai hero) they all use top bin leds' cree, osram, nichia. Inda gro induction is great too. Thats what me and chaz an alot of others use too. The sad thing is people are going to be disappointed with lush and its going to give led a bad rep to a wider audience due to all the breeders getting free lights and documenting them like subcool and farmer john. also the pics lush uses was half hps. then they took them down for pics. They pulled an Irish boy.
check this thread about lush

https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/736418-lush-led-lighting-another-one.html


Chinese led's can produce great results at twice the wattage to cover the same area as high quality led's . Their problem is longeveity. They just don't last. They fail within a few months to a year. Due to low quality parts and companies in China not having any quality control.

This is what has always been the problem with LEDs and growing in general. Bullshit talk. I've seen them in action and they work great. You can say whatever you want about them but it can't take away what I've seen with my own eyes. I read through that whole thread and not one person who is using them is complaining about them. The whole "chinese led" argument appears to invented out of thin air. According to them they are made in the US. They have a warranty on them too. If they are breaking and the company is ripping people off, where are the people who've been ripped off? How come they don't exist?



I hate to say this, but people like you are exactly what's wrong with the growing community. You repeat bullshit you hear and then have no actual evidence to back up anything you are saying. This is twice you've tried to explain what I've seen with my own eyes isn't true. You throw in a lot of cool "sciency" sounding words to make yourself sound more credible. Unfortunately people buy into this. However this isn't real science. Science is about evidence, not using technical terms. What you're posting is sciencyness, not science.

I know that is a pretty inflammatory thing to say and I hate to go there, but you made it necessary.

The fact is that nearly all top shelf bud in dispensaries is in fact hydro and not organics as you claim and that I've seen Lush LED's in action with my own eyes and they work great.

There really is nothing you can say that changes these realities. Every time I've asked you for evidence to back up the unfounded claims you make you've failed to do so. Please stop believing everything you read and look at actual evidence rather than just repeat unfounded claims people make to you.

 

[hyroot]

Ive seen them in action. half of one light failed after 4 months another light lasted 9 months and failed. like i said you can get good results with them. they just don' last. Its obvious to any educated led grower that they lie. their info on their site is a joke. Its a fact they lie about parts. they bad mouth all other companies.. I've used apollos and eshines in the past when I first got into led. my apollo failed at 15 months. like i said what the eshines failed at.. if you compare a side by side with better leds. you will see a huge difference. I have one a51 sgs160 right now and adding a few more within the next 2 months... the chines ones also drive leds to the max at 700mA. the main reason for their failures plus poor soldering. leds should be driven softer to 500mA. they last 5 times longer that way. I've had vast experience with led. I don't fuck around when it comes to my lighting. take it or don't . Eventually you will be disappointed with lush. their 330 watt dominater only covers a 2x3. my a51 at 155w cover the same are with much higher par , cri . far higher quality leds. cree x-pg. Area 51 cost less than lush and has a lifetime warranty..

the best chinese led company imo is evergrow. vipar is evergrow too.. they drive led's softer and have better quality control.

also I happened to go to a dispensary today with my neighbor. They were all hydro. we walked out without getting anything. they had horrible quality top shelf. my rols weed kicks the shit out of their top shelf


You never asked for evidence. you justr argued with b.s. wheres your evidence other than "I've seen with my own eyes." your rederick is pure bullshit.

 

[Dan Kone]

Ive seen them in action. half of one light failed after 4 months another light lasted 9 months and failed. like i said you can get good results with them. they just don' last. Its obvious to any educated led grower that they lie.

The problem is that there are a ton of people who I consider to be very credible running them and they aren't complaining about them. Unless Kushington Farms is lying, TGA is lying, Swerve is lying, and Nikka-t is lying then I'm not sure I believe any of that.

What happened when the lights failed? Did the company replace them as promised?

their info on their site is a joke. Its a fact they lie about parts.

Again you're having the same problem here. Where's the evidence? How do you know where they get their parts? How do you know they are lying?

I've used apollos and eshines in the past when I first got into led. my apollo failed at 15 months. like i said what the eshines failed at.. if you compare a side by side with better leds. you will see a huge difference. I have one a51 sgs160 right now and adding a few more within the next 2 months... the chines ones also drive leds to the max at 700mA.

According to them they have a proprietary design and are not the same thing. They say they are made in Michigan. So far you've shown me no evidence that that is factually incorrect. It really seems like you're just repeating rumors.

the main reason for their failures plus poor soldering.

Where are these failures? How come no one is saying they bought one of these and got ripped off?

also I happened to go to a dispensary today with my neighbor. They were all hydro. we walked out without getting anything. they had horrible quality top shelf. my rols weed kicks the shit out of their top shelf

Lots of dispensaries have shitty weed. Doesn't change the fact that most top shelf is all hydro.

You never asked for evidence. you justr argued with b.s.

Actually I did. I asked you to prove the claim you made that feeding a plant synthetic nutrients is harmful. Still waiting for that...

 

[hyroot]

their proprietary design is their spectrum . no one can own colors.

I called cree asking if they make custom leds. they said they don't make them for anybody. Then I asked about the ones for lush and they said they never worked with them.

here is their contact info. call them yourself


http://www.cree.com/Contact



a few posts back you said leds are all scams. now you have seen them with your own eyes. well which is it? thats quite contradictory.. that leads me to believe you are full of it


how did you prove your claim. showing random picture of rotten fruit doesn't prove anything it doesn't even show how they were grown. you have yet to prove anything. with my claims check with the U.S department of agriculture and california and oregon branches too.

theres plenty of news paper articles around the country too.

 

[Dan Kone]

their proprietary design is their spectrum . no one can own colors.

I called cree asking if they make custom leds. they said they don't make them for anybody.

They sell them right on their website.

a few posts back you said leds are all scams. now you have seen them with your own eyes. well which is it?thats quite contradictory.. that leads me to believe you are full of it

I think if you go back and read my post you'll find that I didn't actually say that at all.

how did you prove your claim.

I'm not the one making wild accusations here.

You've said that those LED's are made in China when according to them they are made in Michigan. You said they break all the time and then directed me to a thread where the only evidence of that was you and no one else making that claim. You said that buds fed with synthetic nutrients can be potentially harmful.

And you never have any evidence to back up any of that.